Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Comicopolis]

Fanned paged books shouldn't get 9.6's. Doesn't matter if it is natural or not. Wouldn't that solve all this?

 

It would appear that CGC graders think the opposite.

[Bomber-Bob]

I just reread this CGC article. Just saying......

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

Which is why I'd call this cover shrinkage unintentional, much like no presser wants to introduce a waffle pattern or waviness to their work.

 

Agreed, it was unintentional, though the previous posts about why didn't the presser stop when seeing this is puzzling. However, the part, mentioned twice, about forcing the book into a state that didn't exist is interesting.

What's done is done. I'm sure Doug's auction will close tonight with record prices. I'm sure the presser, whoever it is, feels bad. I just wish

we could get something positive out of this discussion. Perhaps CGC can develop a method of recognizing this as a bad press ?

[Sqeggs]

I just reread this CGC article. Just saying......

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

Which is why I'd call this cover shrinkage unintentional, much like no presser wants to introduce a waffle pattern or waviness to their work.

 

Agreed, it was unintentional, though the previous posts about why didn't the presser stop when seeing this is puzzling. However, the part, mentioned twice about forcing the book into a state that didn't exist is interesting.

What's done is done. I'm sure Doug's auction will close tonight with record prices. I'm sure the presser, whoever it is, feels bad. I just wish

we could get something positive out of this discussion. Perhaps CGC can develop a method of recognizing this as a bad press ?

 

This is the part I'm not sure of. If the only way to eliminate the defects necessary to bump the grade was to take actions that shrunk the cover and caused the page fan, then I guess he did what he was paid to do.

[Bomber-Bob]

I just reread this CGC article. Just saying......

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

Which is why I'd call this cover shrinkage unintentional, much like no presser wants to introduce a waffle pattern or waviness to their work.

 

Agreed, it was unintentional, though the previous posts about why didn't the presser stop when seeing this is puzzling. However, the part, mentioned twice about forcing the book into a state that didn't exist is interesting.

What's done is done. I'm sure Doug's auction will close tonight with record prices. I'm sure the presser, whoever it is, feels bad. I just wish

we could get something positive out of this discussion. Perhaps CGC can develop a method of recognizing this as a bad press ?

 

This is the part I'm not sure of. If the only way to eliminate the defects necessary to bump the grade was to take actions that shrunk the cover and caused the page fan, then I guess he did what he was paid to do.

 

Yes, the resolution here is that everybody did their job/accomplished their mission. I would like to take away something positive for the hobby.

[gaz973]

I just reread this CGC article. Just saying......

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

Which is why I'd call this cover shrinkage unintentional, much like no presser wants to introduce a waffle pattern or waviness to their work.

 

Agreed, it was unintentional, though the previous posts about why didn't the presser stop when seeing this is puzzling. However, the part, mentioned twice about forcing the book into a state that didn't exist is interesting.

What's done is done. I'm sure Doug's auction will close tonight with record prices. I'm sure the presser, whoever it is, feels bad. I just wish

we could get something positive out of this discussion. Perhaps CGC can develop a method of recognizing this as a bad press ?

 

This is the part I'm not sure of. If the only way to eliminate the defects necessary to bump the grade was to take actions that shrunk the cover and caused the page fan, then I guess he did what he was paid to do.

 

Yes, the resolution here is that everybody did their job/accomplished their mission. I would like to take away something positive for the hobby.

Maybe sometimes there is just nothing positive to be taken.

[DiceX]

I just reread this CGC article. Just saying......

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

Which is why I'd call this cover shrinkage unintentional, much like no presser wants to introduce a waffle pattern or waviness to their work.

 

Agreed, it was unintentional, though the previous posts about why didn't the presser stop when seeing this is puzzling. However, the part, mentioned twice, about forcing the book into a state that didn't exist is interesting.

What's done is done. I'm sure Doug's auction will close tonight with record prices. I'm sure the presser, whoever it is, feels bad. I just wish

we could get something positive out of this discussion. Perhaps CGC can develop a method of recognizing this as a bad press ?

 

Whomever is paying record prices for these books only cares about the number in the top left corner, so this thread is a waste of time and butthurt.

 

 

[etanick]

there is positive thing to take away. I am not spending money on those books...more money left in my pocket...very positive!

[chrisco37]

Finally, when the degree of cover shrinkage gets to the point where it negatively impacts the eye appeal of a comic, the marketplace will decide on the lost value. I, for one, would strongly prefer that my otherwise high grade comics not have the interior pages sticking out to the degree that they do on the JIM93, ASM14, and some of the other books in the Cole Schave collection. If Matt's shop can't reduce the Costanza problem, and sellers lose value as a consequence, perhaps the financial incentive will be there for both presser and seller to reduce the problem.

 

Great post, Bob. I agree with you fully. When (if) collectors "shun" these books and the incentive goes away, so will the practice.

 

I have seen raw books with this defect before on SA Marvels. I always called it "side overhang" and I've always avoided books that I thought were severe.

 

Hopefully, the market will realize this as a defect (a book might have to pass thru a few hands before the correction). People will be left with the hot potato, and the practice will stop. Sorry for those that are left holding

 

I won't buy a book, nor would I pay the HG premium, with this defect. We're talking about SA Marvels. One can afford to be picky/discerning.

[Mmehdy]

The things that are being done to either cheat or beat or push thru the system are amazing. I don't think anybody will ever find out the truth here; that is not the point, the CGC needs to restructure the grading system to avoid rewarding of pressing etc.

 

The solution is simple. Eliminate the blue, green and purple, and create a universal standard which confirms the book is real, and then a 10 point grading system which subtracts from the total for resto, tape, etc.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times they are a changing.

 

OK, who are you and what have you done with Mitch?

 

 

For the long term value of comic book collecting, the madness has to stop.

 

Mitch, I know we're talking about it on a much higher dollar value than ever before, but didn't this go on before CGC in much more unspoken terms?

Pre-CGC, I can't even imagine the number of books sold that had undisclosed restoration, undisclosed color touch, amateur pressing and questionable grading.

If this is a travesty to the integrity of pristine raw books, wouldn't a better path be to try and find a way to better educate the buyers who aren't as aware of all of the knowledge shared on these boards? CGC buyers are a small percentage of the hobby, so it doesn't seem impossible.

At least people would know what they're buying.

The CGC isn't OURS. It's a business and as a business it's always going to have a conflict of interest in trying to increase its number of submissions. Less upgrades means less dollars available and a smaller market for high dollar books.

As much as the CGC is concerned about the integrity of what they do, MORE submissions, especially upgraded submissions ultimately means more money for them.

What is it you see as happening if the trend continues?

 

The CGC is the best thing to ever happen to comic book collecting. If you consider a restored book in the early days, please remember the prices were not anywhere near what they are today, they laughed at me paying 1801 bucks for a comic book.

 

The stakes are much higher today, Blue lable= GOLD, money in the bank, 10 times guide and insanity.

 

To make something better than what it really is to beat the system and line your pockets is not good for the long term stability of comic book collecting and paying prices in which you can rely on them to retain some if not all of your purchase price some reasonable amount of money in the futrure.

 

Repair today, in some instances cannot be detected. The CGC knows this, I know this and you know this. With more money at stake, more files come around, waiting to "beat the system" ( As Thomas Crown said after robbing banks, not for the money, see steve and faye on that one).

There is ongoing a wave of restoration that cannot be detected, the system has to change to eliminate the 10X the price difference between Blue and Green or Purple to keep comic book collecting save and sound for the future.

 

A new system needs to be created to keep all book equal, with subtractions for repair, tape, pressing, etc. Otherwise expect price stability to go out the window, buyer confidence to drop, and 95% OF ALL BOOKS TO TAKE A HIT.

 

It is not too late to fix things, the CGC controls this market whether you like it or not. They have the power to fight to save sanity in the comic book world.

 

I agree that the CGC is the best thing to happen to collecting, especially in detecting restoration, color touch, etc. and giving us an accepted third party grading system to make things overall fair vs ambiguous grading from strangers.

I'm confident in that they want to be fair in their approach to the market, but... getting them to accept that they are responsible for it is a slippery slope. They put themselves in a precarious position by doing that.

It's why I believe that we need to do more ourselves to educate the CGC buyer. It's easy to sit back and complain and expect the CGC or the market to correct itself. I don't see it happening that way.

It's a social media world. We have a tremendous amount of resources and people right here. It can be done.

 

Credibility is the issue here, especially when a upgrade from 9.4 to 9.6 can be thousands of dollars. Real value is another issue for the BUYER. At some point, possible regrades could occur, lowering the issue's grade due to NOW-detectable resto....even to the point of going purple. Is the CGC gonna back track and say only books grading after a certain date will be downgraded.

Plain and simple there needs to be a UNIVERSAL holder for all comic books which would eliminate the need to take a unrestored book, restore it using secret methods, just to bump it up a grade or two.

To be or not to be.....this is a turning point for true comic book collectors

[stroszek]

Finally, when the degree of cover shrinkage gets to the point where it negatively impacts the eye appeal of a comic, the marketplace will decide on the lost value. I, for one, would strongly prefer that my otherwise high grade comics not have the interior pages sticking out to the degree that they do on the JIM93, ASM14, and some of the other books in the Cole Schave collection. If Matt's shop can't reduce the Costanza problem, and sellers lose value as a consequence, perhaps the financial incentive will be there for both presser and seller to reduce the problem.

 

Great post, Bob. I agree with you fully. When (if) collectors "shun" these books and the incentive goes away, so will the practice.

 

I have seen raw books with this defect before on SA Marvels. I always called it "side overhang" and I've always avoided books that I thought were severe.

 

Hopefully, the market will realize this as a defect (a book might have to pass thru a few hands before the correction). People will be left with the hot potato, and the practice will stop. Sorry for those that are left holding

 

I won't buy a book, nor would I pay the HG premium, with this defect. We're talking about SA Marvels. One can afford to be picky/discerning.

 

Is it really a defect? Usually it's just because of a slight miswrap with a little bit of the front cover on the back of the spine. And not because of a facejob, just a poorly placed staple. Maybe it detracts from the visual appeal, but I don't know that it's exactly a defect.

[drbanner]

Is the CGC gonna back track and say only books grading after a certain date will be downgraded.

That's what CGC effectively did for tape and the original Wilson Face-jobbers, so there's precedent for it. As Chrisco said, I wouldn't want to be left holding the hot potato with these books.

[blazingbob]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Finally, when the degree of cover shrinkage gets to the point where it negatively impacts the eye appeal of a comic, the marketplace will decide on the lost value. I, for one, would strongly prefer that my otherwise high grade comics not have the interior pages sticking out to the degree that they do on the JIM93, ASM14, and some of the other books in the Cole Schave collection. If Matt's shop can't reduce the Costanza problem, and sellers lose value as a consequence, perhaps the financial incentive will be there for both presser and seller to reduce the problem.

 

Great post, Bob. I agree with you fully. When (if) collectors "shun" these books and the incentive goes away, so will the practice.

 

I have seen raw books with this defect before on SA Marvels. I always called it "side overhang" and I've always avoided books that I thought were severe.

 

Hopefully, the market will realize this as a defect (a book might have to pass thru a few hands before the correction). People will be left with the hot potato, and the practice will stop. Sorry for those that are left holding

 

I won't buy a book, nor would I pay the HG premium, with this defect. We're talking about SA Marvels. One can afford to be picky/discerning.

 

Is it really a defect? Usually it's just because of a slight miswrap with a little bit of the front cover on the back of the spine. And not because of a facejob, just a poorly placed staple. Maybe it detracts from the visual appeal, but I don't know that it's exactly a defect.

 

I am sure someone will correct me if I am missing something, but your describing a fairly common production defect that should be easily separated from the poor press job on the Cole books. With the production defect, the cover is not actually shrinking, it was just folded poorly at the factory. When viewing an example of this from the back, the cover should extend completely over the newsprint as it is simply skewed from the front.

 

With the "Costanza" bad press job, the cover shrinks longitudinally across the entire width of the book. You should see similar amounts of newsprint sticking out from the cover from both the front and rear. I would think these should be clear as day, once you know what to look for.

[thirdgreenham]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

Yes!!!

[DiceX]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

Yes!!!

 

+1 (thumbs u

 

 

[namisgr]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

I bet the thing Cole Schave is most unhappy about is the reduced eye appeal on so many of the otherwise high grade comics that he painstakingly accumulated with their eye appeal in mind.

[VintageComics]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

I bet the thing Cole Schave is most unhappy about is the reduced eye appeal on so many of the otherwise high grade comics that he painstakingly accumulated with their eye appeal in mind.

 

Face needs a Schave.

 

 

[thehumantorch]

Does anybody agree that if I were Cole Schave I would not be happy that my collection is now considered a "Facejob". Not exactly what I would like my collection called.

 

And while there are nice books in the collection all that is being discussed are the "Facejobs".

 

Yes he has the $$$$ but I'm sure he was proud of his collection.

 

 

Yes!!!

 

+1 (thumbs u

 

+1 (thumbs u

[blazingbob]

Well at least his collection continues in the same vein as the pressific coasts.

 

 

 

 

[paperheart]

how did the ASM Costanza's do?