Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[fantastic_four]

Thanks for the example, I'll mull it over.

 

Do you have a feel for what years for DC, Timely, and Marvel you think that trimming and then folding gave way to folding and then trimming?

 

I don't think the four color printing process change much at all from 1930-1970's

 

So you think the printers started folding and then trimming in the 1970s then? There is no doubt at all they're folded and then trimmed on any newsstand book today, and I think it was done throughout the 1970s. Or all along as Dice suggests, which is still my better guess, but we'll hold off on that pending proof.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

[Timely]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

 

I can't exactly tell what he's doing, but it looks like he's trimming a stack of unfolded paper.

 

Is it possible that books were trimmed more than once? Once when flat and again when assembled and folded?

 

That does seem to be the case. The pages would have to be cut apart before they are assembled and then trimmed again once assembled. That explains many printing errors I've seen.

 

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

[DiceX]

Thanks for the example, I'll mull it over.

 

Do you have a feel for what years for DC, Timely, and Marvel you think that trimming and then folding gave way to folding and then trimming?

 

I don't think the four color printing process change much at all from 1930-1970's

 

So you think the printers started folding and then trimming in the 1970s then? There is no doubt at all they're folded and then trimmed on any newsstand book today, and I think it was done throughout the 1970s. Or all along as Dice suggests, which is still my better guess, but we'll hold off on that pending proof.

 

Bindery equipment hasn't changed much from the 30's/40's through today.

In the last 10/20 years or so there has been some technologically advanced equipment replacing old equipment. Though there's still 70 year old bindery equipment producing books today.

 

Even the new equipment, though it produces nicer product, still works on the same principles that has been used for 100 years or more.

 

 

[DiceX]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

 

Yes, the chop is straight down. The blade is flat on one side and angled on the other.

 

 

[slym2none]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

 

 

Yes - is the blade perfectly horizontal to the table, or is it angled? Does the blade chop through the paper, contacting each wrap all at the same time (horizontal,) or slice it, with the blade contacting the paper at one end first and slicing to the other end?

 

 

 

-slym

[comicwiz]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will

do.

 

 

 

Cool photos - thanks Roy.

 

Here's the thing (and I'm not taking sides) but couldn't this off-angle trim be produced whether the book was trimmed folded or unfolded?

 

The way I'm seeing it is whether that book is folded in a pile, or laying flat in a pile of unfolded sheets, the thing causing this is the blades inability to cut at some point, whether it's because it's dulling or the energy of the blade pushing down is meeting a point of resistance in the pile (and the paper starts moving in a downward direction with the blade rather than taking the cut cleanly) to create an uneven edge.

[DiceX]

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

I don't know the answer to this other than to speculate that the outermost pages have more exposure to air than than the next page on the inside and given decades to do so, it shrinks a few millimeters more than the inner pages.

 

That's pure speculation, but I can tell you for 100% fact that it's not because the book was trimmed before it was folded.

 

 

[MCMiles]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

 

I can't exactly tell what he's doing, but it looks like he's trimming a stack of unfolded paper.

 

Is it possible that books were trimmed more than once? Once when flat and again when assembled and folded?

 

That does seem to be the case. The pages would have to be cut apart before they are assembled and then trimmed again once assembled. That explains many printing errors I've seen.

 

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

Further more, why do SA Marvels seem to have more of a reverse V effect at the top of the book and often little to none at the bottom?

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

 

Yes, the chop is straight down. The blade is flat on one side and angled on the other.

 

 

But the blade itself has a slight angle to it in relation to the horizontal plane of the table, correct? Such that there is a leading and a trailing edge as it intersects with the table.

[DiceX]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

 

 

Yes - is the blade perfectly horizontal to the table, or is it angled? Does the blade chop through the paper, contacting each wrap all at the same time (horizontal,) or slice it, with the blade contacting the paper at one end first and slicing to the other end?

 

 

 

-slym

 

Ahh, I understand your question now.

Yes, the blade is perfectly square with the table and makes contact with the entire surface of the book at the same time and pushes it's way through the paper from top to bottom.

 

 

[DiceX]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

 

I can't exactly tell what he's doing, but it looks like he's trimming a stack of unfolded paper.

 

Is it possible that books were trimmed more than once? Once when flat and again when assembled and folded?

 

That does seem to be the case. The pages would have to be cut apart before they are assembled and then trimmed again once assembled. That explains many printing errors I've seen.

 

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

Further more, why do SA Marvels seem to have more of a reverse V effect at the top of the book and often little to none at the bottom?

 

That also leans toward my theory of exposure to elements.

When the books are standing in a box, the tops are more exposed than the bottoms.

 

 

[DiceX]

Here we go. Sorry I could not find a more drastic example to show my point, but it will

do.

 

 

 

Cool photos - thanks Roy.

 

Here's the thing (and I'm not taking sides) but couldn't this off-angle trim be produced whether the book was trimmed folded or unfolded?

 

The way I'm seeing it is whether that book is folded in a pile, or laying flat in a pile of unfolded sheets, the thing causing this is the blades inability to cut at some point, whether it's because it's dulling or the energy of the blade pushing down is meeting a point of resistance in the pile (and the paper starts moving in a downward direction with the blade rather than taking the cut cleanly) to create an uneven edge.

 

Yes. it's possible and very common for the book to slightly twist as the blade goes through it.

 

 

[MCMiles]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

 

I can't exactly tell what he's doing, but it looks like he's trimming a stack of unfolded paper.

 

Is it possible that books were trimmed more than once? Once when flat and again when assembled and folded?

 

That does seem to be the case. The pages would have to be cut apart before they are assembled and then trimmed again once assembled. That explains many printing errors I've seen.

 

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

Further more, why do SA Marvels seem to have more of a reverse V effect at the top of the book and often little to none at the bottom?

 

That also leans toward my theory of exposure to elements.

When the books are standing in a box, the tops are more exposed than the bottoms.

 

 

Possible, but I'd wager to say that books stored flat and in open areas have the same effect. We could probably find examples that exhibit the same traits in Pedigree collections that we know were not stored upright in boxes.

[Timely]

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

I don't know the answer to this other than to speculate that the outermost pages have more exposure to air than than the next page on the inside and given decades to do so, it shrinks a few millimeters more than the inner pages.

 

That's pure speculation, but I can tell you for 100% fact that it's not because the book was trimmed before it was folded.

 

 

I'm not so sure. If I went to a comic store and found a comic that used pulp paper, I have a feeling the pages would look "V" shaped and not straight.

 

In any event, let's get this thread back on track. Who are burning at the stakes today?

[originalisbest]

Books were trimmed after they have been folded.

 

Here's a pic of the Spartan Printing Company, circa 1977.

 

The guy is operating the trimming machine.

 

 

I can't exactly tell what he's doing, but it looks like he's trimming a stack of unfolded paper.

 

Is it possible that books were trimmed more than once? Once when flat and again when assembled and folded?

 

That does seem to be the case. The pages would have to be cut apart before they are assembled and then trimmed again once assembled. That explains many printing errors I've seen.

 

What still has me scratching my head is why the centerfold sticks out further than the wrap next to it, and that wrap sticks out further than the one next to it... and so on. Since the paper is the same age, I cannot see how wraps shrinking uniformly smaller from the centerfold outward with "aging" being the answer. The centerfold should shrink just as much as the 1st wrap if age is the answer to shrinkage. The pages would still be square. There must be another reason for it other than aging.

 

West, I think aging is the answer, some books will show it to a greater/lesser degree, and right after production, due to conditions/storage/shipping, some shrinkage takes place right away. Sometimes slow, sometimes fast.

 

Example again, the EC reprints from Russ Cochran (now 10+ years old) were probably quite flush once trimmed "hot off the press", but now all the examples I have, though flush at a glance, do exhibit the reverse V, very slightly. Perhaps in 30+ years time, they'll start to exhibit it as most '60s Marvels do now.

 

I know that cover shrinkage, etc. is a concern for printers right from the get-go when making new product today, in looking around for answers earlier on bindery chips. I stumbled across an unrelated topic at the time, production of perfect bound paperbacks, and one printer was posing the problem of cover shrinkage on those, were the entire line, though covers were flush with the interior pages when trimmed, were noticeably less wide when readied for shipment a bit later.

 

Various causes were discussed, main culprit seemed to be palette storage and moisture seeping into the books from the wood palettes. Probably a problem they said couldn't be eliminated entirely, and I know I've seen it myself on new paperbacks in the past, and wondered why/how they had they had made the covers noticeably less wide than the interior pages.

[originalisbest]

Oh, and why the centerfold would shrink less than the pages right next to it, and progressively outward, with the cover shrinking the most in relation to the pages, that would have to be because the centerfold is the most protected/least exposed to the exterior environment?

[comix4fun]

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

If the cutting blade is perfectly horizontal to the table

 

 

Yes - is the blade perfectly horizontal to the table, or is it angled? Does the blade chop through the paper, contacting each wrap all at the same time (horizontal,) or slice it, with the blade contacting the paper at one end first and slicing to the other end?

 

 

 

-slym

 

Ahh, I understand your question now.

Yes, the blade is perfectly square with the table and makes contact with the entire surface of the book at the same time and pushes it's way through the paper from top to bottom.

 

 

There must be some depth of field thing going on then that makes them look like there is a slight angle to them, when I have been in the back of print shops.

[comix4fun]