Answer from CGC.........

[DiceX]

now I ask you, doesn't this "pressing proposition" sound like a "manufactured collectibles" effort to you?

 

No doubt it can be seen that way.

Here's my thought on the subject as a whole...

Before CGC, the interpretations of grading were hit and miss to say the least. More times than not, comics were overgraded. The range for what was being sold as "NM" was ridiculous.

Since CGC came around, the grading has tightened up for some dealers and most collectors.

You now have a choice between buying raw using your new grading skills, or buying slabbed and knowing that it was given a grade that was determined by 3 different people assessing the comic.

 

Collectors have benefited from CGC by making them become tighter, more accurate graders.

The premium paid for “NM” books before was on a much wider range of grades because collectors had nobody, other than the biased seller, to give them an opinion. I look back on books I bought as "NM" and think how naive I was.

CGC has made me a better grader, and because of them, I seldom get burned when buying raw books.

 

Were "high premiums" paid for "NM" or better comics BEFORE CGC? Yes.

Were comics being pressed before CGC? Absolutely.

 

I don't have a problem with you guys opposing my point of view.

I honestly think better decisions have been made than the one in the title of this thread, but coming from a management point of view, I understand CCG if they decide to do it.

However, it will not shake my confidence in CGC. I trust them. They can't detect a professionally pressed book any better than anyone else, so why can I be angry that they don't PLOD these books?

I prefer that CCG not go into the restoration business, but that won’t make me stop buying comics, raw or graded.

I love comics, and I will buy them long after a lot of people (replying in this topic) leave it for beanie babies.

[BassGMan]

Greed and fear are funny things.

 

Obviously from the sheer amount of posts you are making.

 

no way jose.......check out Chromium's Belgian website fiasco thread if you want to see SID at his post pumping best......

 

What is post pumping? If you mean when somebody posts many times on a thread in order to reiterate his position to all the others who keep asking him why he feels the way he does over and over again, then OK, I am a post pumper. Had I ignored all those statements directed at me, then I'd be skirting the issue.

[BassGMan]

I just wonder if any of us were CGC employees and could benefit financially by this new venture, how many of us would have an opposite point of view. As I keep bringing up, it is all about the bias.

 

Okay, how many people work and revenue-share at CGC, compared to how many CGC collectors, dealers and investors there are? That is not bias, but pure numbers at work.

 

Tango, my statement was not about majority rules, it was about a company that is looking out after it's own self interests, first. Should it pass up on an opportunity because there are some others out there NOT associated with the company that think it is the wrong thing to do?

[BassGMan]

Just to clarify my position, it is not that I am supporting this potential move because I think it is a good thing, I am supporting the decision because I believe CGC has a right to do what they think is best for CGC.

 

well, if thats the basis of what you are posting. point noted. But keep in mind that to my knowledge NO ONE has argued that CGC CANNOT do whatever they want to do with their business. Of course they can. What is being debated (absent of any input from CGC) is whether they should do this or whether it will be damaging to CGC AND to collector's trust in CGC.

 

Id say the answer to that is resoundingly YES, or that it will be absorbed like Wizard First was. Is anybody arguing that it is a GOOD idea??

So can we count you in the total agreeing its not a good step, while agreing that of course CGC can go ahead if they choose?

 

Good Question aman. After reading all of the input on this board I can see that alot of people are really put off by this, although I am not personally (I am in the pressing is not restoration camp, sorry). And all of your opinions do matter to me. I have an open mind and can and do change it when I hear good reasoning. So if Steve came to me and asked ME to make the final decision on if they were to either go ahead, or to use my VETO power to stop the entire deal. Well... based on the resounding disgust put forth by my forum buddies, then yes, I'd use the veto and stop the deal. But unfortunately I do not have this power (damn!) so I will just trust them to do what is best for them, and I will do what is best for me. Whether that decision is to continue as is then fine, if it means that I give CGC less business, that's fine too.

[burntboy]

Greed and fear are funny things.

 

Obviously from the sheer amount of posts you are making.

 

no way jose.......check out Chromium's Belgian website fiasco thread if you want to see SID at his post pumping best......

 

What is post pumping? If you mean when somebody posts many times on a thread in order to reiterate his position to all the others who keep asking him why he feels the way he does over and over again, then OK, I am a post pumper. Had I ignored all those statements directed at me, then I'd be skirting the issue.

 

Geez, Sid, now you're gonna get sensitive on me???

 

see that little smiling graemlin at the end of my statement??

[LastStarfighter]

I remember reading a while ago that perhaps "restored books were the most undervalued" out there. Perhaps it is this market which will see a big readjustment of pricing.

I feel that the solution should be to consider pressing as restoration. If it is known or is apparent that a book has been pressed, CGC should notate the book as such. If CGC can truly NOT TELL, then a blue universal label should be applied.

Back to my first point, determining true value of restored books -- As the population of comic lovers increases over time there will provide new demand for classic material. There is only so much of it that exists in original high grade. The value of a truly professionally restored book that looks tremendous, has to be properly figured out. The book does not become worthless. Paintings are cleaned and retouched.

Demand will increase over time. There will also, out of necessity, arise a need to preserve comics from natural age. Restoration is probably the wave of the future. And having a top-notch garding service which can determine all levels of restoration would be ABSOLUTLY VITAL in that marketplace.

So coming full circle - my main issue is CGC NOT considering pressing resto. Consider it as such, and mark it where appropriate. If they truly cannot detect pressing, using all available means (microscopic views, etc..) then, by definition it has to pass.

[THE_BEYONDER]

One question....

 

If pressing services become available to the masses, will you be submitting any books yourself?

[BassGMan]

Greed and fear are funny things.

 

Obviously from the sheer amount of posts you are making.

 

no way jose.......check out Chromium's Belgian website fiasco thread if you want to see SID at his post pumping best......

 

What is post pumping? If you mean when somebody posts many times on a thread in order to reiterate his position to all the others who keep asking him why he feels the way he does over and over again, then OK, I am a post pumper. Had I ignored all those statements directed at me, then I'd be skirting the issue.

 

Geez, Sid, now you're gonna get sensitive on me???

 

see that little smiling graemlin at the end of my statement??

 

Sorry Harry , with all the debating I have been doing lately (on two threads) my mind is getting a little leery and sometimes can't pick up on the subtle differences between humor, sarcasm and insults.

[Tango 'n Cash]

Should it pass up on an opportunity because there are some others out there NOT associated with the company that think it is the wrong thing to do?

 

Of course not but should customers who disagree with the decision not say so, just because CGC hit the gravy train?

[BassGMan]

One question....

 

If pressing services become available to the masses, will you be submitting any books yourself?

 

Chris, absolutely not. Although I do not consider pressing as restoration, I realize that many others do, and the last thing I would ever want to do is to hide something from a potential buyer. It would make me feel kinda' slimey. And I do not think others should have books pressed either if it is with the intention of selling it KNOWING that at least half of us DO consider it restoration.

 

I do not blame the pressers as they are just providing a service. And I would not blame CGC for owning a pressing service either. But I do blame the dealers that have this done for selling purposes. An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

[Tango 'n Cash]

An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

 

Okay guns provide protection from wildlife in rural areas, as well as a source of food, but what all-emcompassing virtue is derived from comic book pressing?

[BassGMan]

An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

 

Okay guns provide protection from wildlife in rural areas, as well as a source of food, but what all-emcompassing virtue is derived from comic book pressing?

 

The same virtue that restoration of anything is all about in the first place. To make something look better, or work better. Not all restoration is done in order to try to rip people off. Much restoration is done for owner's own personal collection because they want their books, machines, furniture, cars, paintings, or whatever, to look and/or work better. If dealers want to take advantage of that by ripping people off, then that dealer is the bad guy, not the restorer.

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

Newbie question: What books are the most likely candidates to be pressed: Golden, Silver, Bronze, Modern? Or are they all candidates?

[shrunkenhead]

If this thread has demonstrated nothing else, it's shown how hungry so many of us are for a direct dialogue with CGC, and how little dialogue we feel actually privy to in this online "forum." One vague "answer" from CGC has prompted an absolutely insane amount of replies (are we up to 800 yet??), and in record time, too.

 

CGC is a business, but it's a business that caters to hobbyists. That's a weird niche. It suggests that most of us are looking for something from CGC other than a monetary exhange of services and/or goods. In other words, in addition to our slabs, we expect a healthy dialogue with those who work for the company.

 

I've read a lot on these pages about how CGC is not pro-collector but is instead pro-dealer. Well, I'd like to counter that by suggesting that CGC is neither pro-collector nor pro-dealer. They're pro-CGC. Period. In our Adam Smithian capitalistic empire that we call the ole U. S. of A, there's nothing wrong with this. On paper, anyways. But our conscience tells us something different.

 

I didn't give a damn about the "Wizard first" stuff, or the Mile High II pedigree, or any other of a number of time-honored sticking points. But I share with many of you a great dislike for pressing because it ALTERS a comic from its ORIGINAL state. When you're talking about golden age keys, this is a particular travesty. People are futzing with the best existing copies of this book, in order to squeeze a few more dollars out of comics already worth tens of thousands of dollars on the open market.

 

We're supposed to be about PRESERVATION, people. And CONSERVATION. Not restoration, in my opinion. Not of books that are already pristine 9.2s from 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's.

 

Have we learned nothing from the rampant and totally unecessary restoration techinques used on so many church books in the eighties?

 

Where's that emoticon for "hysterical sobbing" when I need it...

 

[(hysterical sobbing)]

[blowout]

Newbie question: What books are the most likely candidates to be pressed: Golden, Silver, Bronze, Modern? Or are they all candidates?

 

They are all candidates. Although obviously there is much more money to be made with older books.

[Illiterati-migration]

An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

 

Okay guns provide protection from wildlife in rural areas, as well as a source of food, but what all-emcompassing virtue is derived from comic book pressing?

 

The same virtue that restoration of anything is all about in the first place. To make something look better, or work better. Not all restoration is done in order to try to rip people off. Much restoration is done for owner's own personal collection because they want their books, machines, furniture, cars, paintings, or whatever, to look and/or work better. If dealers want to take advantage of that by ripping people off, then that dealer is the bad guy, not the restorer.

 

So pressing IS restoration? (You just said it was.)

 

Shouldn't these PRESSED books then be receiving the PURPLE label? And if CGC is going to be offering a RESTORATION SERVICE but not NOTING THE RESTORATION on the label, isn't that something of a problem, Sid?

 

 

Seriously, before your post, I didn't really have an opinion one way or another about the "Pressing as Restoration" argument... but now that you said all that, I think it IS restoration, and that opens a whole new can of worms for me in terms of this discussion.

[Red Hook]

An allegorical example... really? What you are doing though is trying to draw an analogy to the CGC situation. Or at least that's what I take away as your point.

 

Joseph, I actually respect what you have to say, although I find this whole thing almost reaching humorous proportions.

 

I know you're not striving for fandom... I really didn't think you were. I just think the use of Plato's Republic is a little misplaced here, that's all.

 

You know Brian, I thought a bit more about it, and then it hit me! Of course, we'd forgotten the infamous Thor-Plato crossover of the late 60's. Took me a while to track it down. I think Joseph is totally right to draw an analogy between philosophy and what is going on at CGC.

 

[BassGMan]

An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

 

Okay guns provide protection from wildlife in rural areas, as well as a source of food, but what all-emcompassing virtue is derived from comic book pressing?

 

The same virtue that restoration of anything is all about in the first place. To make something look better, or work better. Not all restoration is done in order to try to rip people off. Much restoration is done for owner's own personal collection because they want their books, machines, furniture, cars, paintings, or whatever, to look and/or work better. If dealers want to take advantage of that by ripping people off, then that dealer is the bad guy, not the restorer.

 

So pressing IS restoration? (You just said it was.)

 

Shouldn't these PRESSED books then be receiving the PURPLE label? And if CGC is going to be offering a RESTORATION SERVICE but not NOTING THE RESTORATION on the label, isn't that something of a problem, Sid?

 

 

Seriously, before your post, I didn't really have an opinion one way or another about the "Pressing as Restoration" argument... but now that you said all that, I think it IS restoration, and that opens a whole new can of worms for me in terms of this discussion.

 

Yes, I said "restoration" which included pressing within that word, but pressing really is manipulation which I would not call restoration. If a woman gets breast implants (something added to replace the original) after having lost them due to cancer, then that is restoration. But if she goes to a chiropractor to have her back adjusted so that she can walk upright again, that is manipulation, not restoration. Same thing. So you are saying manipulation should be notated? Do we need a new color label for that? Can we see manipulation with 100% certainty?

[Illiterati-migration]

An analogy is that I do not blame gun manufacturers for making guns as guns DO serve a purpose, but I do blame those that use guns for evil deeds.

 

Okay guns provide protection from wildlife in rural areas, as well as a source of food, but what all-emcompassing virtue is derived from comic book pressing?

 

The same virtue that restoration of anything is all about in the first place. To make something look better, or work better. Not all restoration is done in order to try to rip people off. Much restoration is done for owner's own personal collection because they want their books, machines, furniture, cars, paintings, or whatever, to look and/or work better. If dealers want to take advantage of that by ripping people off, then that dealer is the bad guy, not the restorer.

 

So pressing IS restoration? (You just said it was.)

 

Shouldn't these PRESSED books then be receiving the PURPLE label? And if CGC is going to be offering a RESTORATION SERVICE but not NOTING THE RESTORATION on the label, isn't that something of a problem, Sid?

 

 

Seriously, before your post, I didn't really have an opinion one way or another about the "Pressing as Restoration" argument... but now that you said all that, I think it IS restoration, and that opens a whole new can of worms for me in terms of this discussion.

 

Yes, I said "restoration" which included pressing within that word, but pressing really is manipulation which I would not call restoration. If a woman gets breast implants (something added to replace the original) after having lost them due to cancer, then that is restoration. But if she goes to a chiropractor to have her back adjusted so that she can walk upright again, that is manipulation, not restoration. Same thing. So you are saying manipulation should be notated? Do we need a new color label for that? Can we see manipulation with 100% certainty?

 

I think the sentence that sealed the deal for me was the following (and I love that you stumbled onto this by accident):

 

"Much restoration is done for owner's own personal collection because they want their books, machines, furniture, cars, paintings, or whatever, to look and/or work better."

 

Restoration is done to make books look better. Pressing makes books look better. Pressing is restoration.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Pressing is restoration.

 

 

I concur.