Answer from CGC.........

[burntboy]

BurntBoy-are these questions geared towards me? or the person who responded to my original post?

 

I'm on your side here-I believe-Burntboy...

 

just look at the top of my post and next to Re: you'll see Flaming Telepath's name.

 

it's not so much a matter of sides as it is my being against somewhat unrealistic examples when trying to make a point. i don't completely disagree with everything in the 4 Scenarios, i just think that they are a mite exaggerated, perhaps.

[comicworm]

I think they are very exagerated at this point....

 

will try to do some more research on the subject though....

[nearmint]

I couldn't agree more, Harry.

[Mushroom]

If you want to check up on what I'm buying-I bought these recent comics from Comic Link:

 

Night Nurse #1 CGC 9.2 $250

 

Hero for Hire #1 CGC 9.4 #500

 

and from PedigreeComics:

 

The Cat #1 CGC 9.4 $175

 

Son of Satan #1 CGC 9.4

 

I like Bronze and Silver age-I don't buy moderns at all

 

but I do read modern Batmans

 

Hate to tell you this worm but those are not HG books. For late SA and BA you have to be in the 9.6 - 9.8 range.

 

If you were getting GA books at a 9.0 - 9.4 then that would be seriously HG.

 

Dependant on how many slabs you own....you probably already have pressed books in your coleection

 

You talk about coin collecting - have you not heard of class action suits for the mis representation of coins. How about the cleaning of coins and the impact that had on the market.

 

Sounds to me like you are more a dealer than a collector and that it is all about the turnover and making a buck.

 

I also used to be a HG collector but not anymore. I just don't like having the goal posts moved on me every month.

[OldGuy]

remember-you giving me a label that says they are pressed-how can you prove they are-in a court of law-you are in the wrong insufficiently_thoughtful_person...

 

sorry-had to-too easy...

 

Legal Law 101 would help you

 

You've talked yourself in so many circles that you're just looking foolish now.

[Silver Surfer]

Well said Burnt but unfortunantely CGC's parent campany will not walk away from this because there is no money in doing something that is good for this hobby. I can appreciate Steve B's position that he he has nothing to do with this venture but at the same time he can't exactly speak out against it either (assuming he wanted to) because I'm sure the parent company would have something to say to him. This new pressing venture may be a separate legal enitity but it is still being set up by the owners of CGC and throwing one's hands up and saying its not me doesn't exactly do much for me. Steve and other CGC employees have gone on record defending this process/venture so they shouldn't be surprised if they get flak from those who are anti-pressing. Perhaps if they do care about the hobby they should be advising senior management that the overall response on this boards has been very negative? Has that been done or is this wishful thinking?

[jimm94]

Destro was right! Despite the lack of oxygen between the pages due to pressing, your comics are still on fire!!!

 

Yes, I know I'm not helping!

 

comicworm - Welcome to the boards, and apologies if you don't understand get this joke/parody. It's a little before your time.

[comicworm]

I know they are not high grade books-just showing you what I bought recently-never said they are truly high grade books

 

and no I am not the one looking foolish OldGuy

 

remember-research the law-you might learn something...

 

as for coin collecting-yes cleaning has had a small but vocal impact on the market-does it bother me? Probably not as much as you say it should!

 

Am I a dealer-no just a collector who does occassionally sell-I truly enjoy what I buy-for instance I don't like Spider-Man all that much-so you won't see me buying slabbed spidey's!

 

Isn't that where the money is right now?

[comicworm]

and yes-I do consider some of my comics an investment! Any one payting $1,000+ for a book should.....

 

that being said-I persoanlly never cared for Hulk 181 and I don't own it-

 

I do however have Giant Size X-Men #1 in CGC 9.6!

[Silver Surfer]

You talking to me.

[comicworm]

No silver surfer-I am just addressing some things that the other forum members have said and I am not directing my answers to you-sorry for the misdirection

[comicworm]

no offense guys-but so far today I have been called an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, a shill, and insane

 

its no wonder other collectors and buyers-don't come here to post....

 

would you-if you were up against a lynch mob all the time....

 

don't mean to offend any one-I am after all a newbie, but just consider that fact....

 

those that are nice and considerate to me-I thank you and welcome your comments and opinions!

[Ze-man]

Steve... a few things

 

Not really going to get into a big Q & A about this because I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS NEW COMPANY.

Did they(the suits) even ask your respected advice regarding how offering an "in- house" pressing service might adversely affect CGC's bottom line during the next decade?

Did they just shove it at you and ask you to swallow it whole? Did you raise a voice and make known how you think it SHOULD be done, if done at all?

Did you even care?..You strike me as a control freak(as we are all here) who likes to keep tabs on every aspect of operations. I cannot imagine you allowing someone tinkering with your baby if you were not completely onboard with the idea.

I know you have said countless times your stance on pressing is not resto.

But this whole offering a in-house pressing service thing just smaks of manufacturing collectibles, and cheapens the things I have come to respect out of both you, and CGC in the first place.

 

 

 

 

But if I know you all as well as I think I do, without any answer, we will just have more "yadda yadda yadda" and CGC/CCG haters will have more misinformation to spread until others believe it as fact.

While I understand it might not be your place, or the right time to speak about how this will all go down , or you might not even be privy to what those details might even be since as you say you have nothing to do with the new company.

But for you to casually say we will just spread misinformation about in our typical reckless manner if you dont come on and make some kind of answer, well that is because there are not many actual facts to use as conversation fodder. And it is a topic that is obviously impoprtant to a great many people here...or not.

This whole veil of secrecy shrouding the many facets of CGC acts to promote this type of rumor mongering, not dispell them.

 

 

 

 

so from my understanding, the "official announcement" that will come from either the CCG (Certified Collectibles Group) or the PCS (Paper Collectibles Services, the new service) will probably be sent out in a form letter to the clients who PCS wants to "invite" to become customers

Is it safe to assume those who will recieve the form letter, are already CGC clients(i.e. major players), who have submited boatloads of comics already, and or asked about a pressing service to possibly increase their grade, and or return?

 

 

 

 

because, if I understand it correctly, Friesen does not want to take in too much work at the begining so that he does not get overwhelmed with work. This way his work will be up to the high standards he has always held himself to by not having to rush his work and so that he can get books back to his customers in a reasonable amount of time.

And the higher ups actually agree that this less is more, quality over quantity approach will garner the company the most coin?

That does not seem to jive with the main reason why they wanted to offer a service like this in the first place.

$$$$

 

 

 

 

And lastly.. Was it Chris who wanted to leave and start his pressing biz, and then CCG wanted a piece of that pie?

Or was it CCG who wanted to start offering a legitmate pressing service and asked if Chris would be interested in being the front man. Same as how they approached you years ago about starting a grading company.

And does CGC hold 51% to Chris's 49%?

I though that was the main sticking point in all of this, control. Which Chris rightfully should want.

 

 

Well this turned into a Q& A afterall.

Sorry for that Steve.. all in the vein of promoting this discussion,not derailing it...

 

In the end I suppose the market will dictate how all this plays out. And we will see if the gamble was worth it.

So you guys alienate 25 people on the CGC forum. But make $1,000's of new dollars.

Not a hard choice to make from a business perspective.

 

 

I just wish that was NOT always the bottom line.

 

Ze-

Kenny

[comicworm]

uh okay Ze-Man you seem a bit ticked off right now.

 

Hi-maybe I should introduce myself to you at another time?

 

okay-great.....

[skybolt]

no offense guys-but so far today I have been called an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, a shill, and insane

 

its no wonder other collectors and buyers-don't come here to post....

 

would you-if you were up against a lynch mob all the time....

 

don't mean to offend any one-I am after all a newbie, but just consider that fact....

 

those that are nice and considerate to me-I thank you and welcome your comments and opinions!

 

Trust me comicworm, everyone here is just having a little fun. I'm sure there's no ill will intended from anyone. If your friends are interested, have them join these boards and show us their collections and tell us about their collecting habbits. It's a little awkward at first trying to get adjusted to each person's personality, but it's a lot of fun once you get used to it. Welcome aboard.

[Ze-man]

uh okay Ze-Man you seem a bit ticked off right now.

 

Hi-maybe I should introduce myself to you at another time?

 

okay-great.....

 

 

Not mad bro.. life is too short for that.

It's just comics right?

 

This topic is as old as time, with 1,000's of posts already made.

Kinda hard for you to come in fresh and understand the dynamics of some of what is being said here.

I aint attacking Stevo.. he knows that I hope.. but I sure am not going to just swallow this whole thing without making my little ol opinion known.

 

 

 

Welcome To The Boards

This will pass soon, another topic will take its place...rinse repeat.

Well actually this one might not go away.

 

Makes for good conversation though.

 

Ze-

[OldGuy]

no offense guys-but so far today I have been called an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, a shill, and insane

 

its no wonder other collectors and buyers-don't come here to post....

 

would you-if you were up against a lynch mob all the time....

 

don't mean to offend any one-I am after all a newbie, but just consider that fact....

 

What "fact"?

[jimm94]

I think the idea behind this new business under the CCG umbrella is similar to the relationship that already exists between NGC (coin graders) and NCS (Numismatic Conservation Services) in which you can send a coin for conservation before it is passed on to NGC for grading. However, it will only be sent to NGC if the defects or work done to the coin would still allow it to be encapsulated as an "unrestored" coin.

 

If I am interpreting NCS's services correctly, they essentially provide "non-restorative" cleaning and improvement. Additionally, they offer authentication and encapsulation of "problem" coins without grading them, as well as a service where coins are encapsulated and "grader's notes" are given (not to be confused with grading and certification by NGC).

 

What I don't know is whether or not this service and relationship is regarded as being controversial in the coin hobby. I assume it is not that big of a deal for the coinees and is reasonably successful. Otherwise, I don't think CCG would be doing something so similar in the comic book world.

[Silver Surfer]

Great questions.

[FFB]

Great post, Harry.

 

i just can't help myself here - must respond to tho post;

 

scenario #1 - IF such a detection device EVER comes about, that'll be a beyotch that will then have to be dealt with as there probably are already ton's of pressed books out there.........

 

Who is going to fund the research and development of this technology? There are already micrometers that are used to test paper thickness. When I spoke to Tracey Heft (who most of you know is a museum-trained conservator and who knows a lot about the science of paper) about this recently, he said there is no appreciable difference in the thickness of paper in a book that has been pressed when compared to a book that hasn't been pressed.

 

Also, as I've said previously, comic book paper is pressed at least twice before the comic is even sold. Once when the ink is applied and once when the book is folded. Do you think all books are folded using exactly the same pressure? Comics are also exposed to heat and humidity before and during printing. How will these detection devices distinguish between pre-printing exposure to heat and humidity and "aftermarket" heat and humidity? And what if the book is exposed to high humidity in its storage environment? Will all of those books yield false positives from the detection machine?

 

Scenario #2; do you really believe that the market acceptance of the pressing of books could so quickly raise the numbers of HG copies of Key books??? you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear..........

 

Right, and anything with a color-breaking defect is not improveable to ultra-high grade no matter how many times you squish it.

 

Scenario #3 ; can't for the life of me understand why you'd believe that VF and VF+ books would be safe from pressing. FFB has opined many times that he believe's that mid-grade books might be better candidates for pressing and i believe he may have something there. might not be as dramatically lucrative as HG, but where money is to be made, it will be...........

 

Someone listened to me!

 

This is absolutely true. Someone should run an experiment. Take five mid-grade books with typical wear that might be susceptible to being removed by pressing. Then take five high grade books (9.0s or 8.5s) and send all ten to Matt Nelson for the press and resubmit. I would wager that in most of the cases, the mid-grade books will see a greater improvement than the high grade books. There just aren't that many 9.8 or 9.6 "candidates" that have non-color-breaking wear that you can eliminate via pressing.

 

Scenario #4; i believe I know of exactly one documented instance of a slabbed books reversion after it was believed to have been pressed. (i think it was Comiwiz's). not exactly the kind of a database to build a thesis on..............

 

The thing is, none of us knows why Comicwiz's book warped in the slab. It's possible that it wasn't pressed at all and just warped for some other reason such as humidity. Or perhaps the warping was the result of the way the inner well film warps in some holders? We don't know. Comicwiz didn't press that book though, so he's only guessing about reversion. Every professional I've spoken to says that reversion is not a problem if the pressing is done correctly.

 

i personally don't like the impression that this alliance will create in the hobby and have strong feelings about the ethical issues. i would have liked to see CGC's parent walk away from this for the good of the hobby...................

 

My only problem with this service aside from the initial image problem of having it be under the same roof as CGC is that it isn't offered to everyone. I can't believe no one else has harped on this yet, so I'm going to. At least if the Chris Friesen press job is equally available to all, then those who want to do it are on equal footing. If Chris is indeed restricting his services to a select few, it puts everyone outside of those select few at a severe disadvantage in the hobby. THIS is the kind of thing that could make people who are on the fence about pressing fall to one side in a way that CGC does not want, and I think it needs to be reconsidered. If there is truly "nothing wrong" with what Chris Friesen is doing, then go all-out with it. Don't leave it in the shadows where people will get the impression that CGC and Friesen are saying one thing about the ethics of the arrangement yet thinking another.

 

While we're on the topic of pressing, I want to address some thoughts I've raised before about restoration. As many of us have been told countless times, in most other hobbies, certain kinds of restoration are not only accepted, but are even preferred. In most of those hobbies where restoration is accepted, the artifacts being collected are not permanent artifacts made with stable materials, and thus, they require some form of restoration and conservation to keep them looking presentable. Antique furniture and paintings are classic examples. The Mona Lisa has more "restoration" paint on it than it does original paint at this point, yet that does not impact the value of the painting one bit.

 

Comics also fall within the category of perishable artifacts. High-lignin-content newsprint degrades relatively rapidly, especially when compared to cotton rag paper. Eventually, all comics printed on acidic newsprint with alum rosin sizing will disintegrate into nothingness, no matter how well they are stored. Just look at the state of old newspapers from the late 1800s. Brittle and decaying when you can find them, and most have long since been saved to microfilm and then recycled. Many of the Edgar Church books that had white pages are now off-white to white, even though they were stored in reasonably favorable conditions. (Face it, most of us can't afford climate controlled comic storage areas.)

 

Even today, we are still a relatively young hobby, and many of the older books that look pristine and fresh today won't look that way in 50 more years. Many of us will still be alive then and probably many of us will still be collecting then (god willing ). What will the hobby think of restoration then? How will current attitudes toward restoration be viewed 50 years from now?

 

It has always been a little baffling to me that people in this hobby equate restoration with evil. It's not evil to restore a book. But some people hear "restoration" and think and run for the hills, even though the book is being sold at a fraction of its unrestored value. Some people like to say that it is only "undisclosed restoration" that is frowned upon, but that is far from the truth. Books with the purple label are the comic book equivalent of the whore with the scarlet letter -- some guys like them, but in general they are viewed as cheap and tawdry.

 

Getting back to the debate about pressing and the notion that technology will be developed 10, 15, or even 50 years from now to detect it -- research and development of this technology has to be funded by someone. It is not going to invent itself.

 

Who is going to fund it? There is only a small portion of the dealer/collector base that even dabbles in the high-grade/high-dollar market. Many (most?) of those who do have a vested, financial interest in maintaining the status quo regarding pressing. They aren't going to fund the research. For collectors who don't have a vested financial interest in maintaining the status quo and who don't like pressing, what are they going to do? Fund the research? That's not what I'm seeing. What I am seeing is that these few collectors are instead choosing to shy away from the high end of the market. So their solution is one of flight from that aspect of the market, not of technical innovation or discovery.

 

Who does this leave as potential sources of funding? The more general-interest paper scientists and conservators who work for universities and museums? They don't tend to focus their research specifically on comic books and instead devote their limited resources to finding new ways to conserve and restore all manner of paper artifacts more safely and effectively. How will anyone convince these people to give up that focus and direct attention and resources to figuring out a way to detect aftermarket pressing of comic books? I just don't see this happening, since these conservators view pressing not as an "evil," but as a necessary step of the conservation process when repairing an artifact -- and also because pressing only affects such a small portion of the comic marketplace that these people would look at you funny if you even suggested they should devote significant resources to solving what they don't view as much of a problem in the first place.

 

Is there anyone else I'm forgetting as a funding source?

 

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).