Answer from CGC.........

[seanfingh]

The census numbers will jump up and up, and prices will go ker-plunk. It looks to me like the biggest boom of '04 will also be the biggest bust of '05. How quickly the mighty hath fallen...

 

 

I keep seeing this same argument, and I don't follow. How many possible raw 9.2 to 9.6 pressing candidates can there possibly be? And if books are being re-submitted, which is already happening, the census will artificially swell. So what? I'm still baffled at how much weight buyers put into the census when deciding what to buy. The artificial swelling of re-subs does not affect the amount of books on the market that are actually available.

 

IMO, the most affected books will be the top graded 9.6/9.8 Silver and bronze, because I feel it is much more likely that a 9.6 can be pressed into a 9.8. But a 9.0/9.2 to a 9.6 seems a little far fetched to me.

 

Oh COI, you beautiful dumass.

 

I'm speaking to you from the future. Buy as many Avengers 1s, 57s, and AF 15s as you can possibly afford. Go get a line of credit, if need be, just DO IT.

 

Also, when you meet a girl named Elena, for the love of god WALK AWAY.

 

It takes a big man to look back at his words saved for posterity and realize that he was wrong.

 

 

 

But damn Sam, you were one daft sonnavaperson_without_enough_empathy.

 

It was a different time. Also, I was unaware that I had contracted tertiary syphilis at the time, so I was unintentionally "off my meds".

 

I didn't know you could catch that from calling 900 numbers.

 

 

Public phones in Toronto

[DiceX]

The census numbers will jump up and up, and prices will go ker-plunk. It looks to me like the biggest boom of '04 will also be the biggest bust of '05. How quickly the mighty hath fallen...

 

 

I keep seeing this same argument, and I don't follow. How many possible raw 9.2 to 9.6 pressing candidates can there possibly be? And if books are being re-submitted, which is already happening, the census will artificially swell. So what? I'm still baffled at how much weight buyers put into the census when deciding what to buy. The artificial swelling of re-subs does not affect the amount of books on the market that are actually available.

 

IMO, the most affected books will be the top graded 9.6/9.8 Silver and bronze, because I feel it is much more likely that a 9.6 can be pressed into a 9.8. But a 9.0/9.2 to a 9.6 seems a little far fetched to me.

 

Oh COI, you beautiful dumass.

 

I'm speaking to you from the future. Buy as many Avengers 1s, 57s, and AF 15s as you can possibly afford. Go get a line of credit, if need be, just DO IT.

 

Also, when you meet a girl named Elena, for the love of god WALK AWAY.

 

It takes a big man to look back at his words saved for posterity and realize that he was wrong.

 

 

 

But damn Sam, you were one daft sonnavaperson_without_enough_empathy.

 

It was a different time. Also, I was unaware that I had contracted tertiary syphilis at the time, so I was unintentionally "off my meds".

 

I didn't know you could catch that from calling 900 numbers.

 

 

Pubic phones in Toronto

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

[conditionfreak]

Ya know. This pressing debate reminds me of the debate over abortion. About one third are for it. One third are against it, and one third don't give a rats behind.

 

My personal stance is that I do appreciate those who sell (like Borock) who unashamedly state that this book or that book they are selling, was or may have been pressed. I also see many that sell raw books and in their description state that this or that book is a good condidate for a pressing.

 

Me. I don't press. I don't mind buying a pressed book though. I don't send books for restoration, cleaning, pressing, or anything else. Of course, if I had an Action #1 I might sing a different tune, in certain circumstances. Seems a little silly to me though, to press a book issued after 1969.

 

IMO, a book is what it is, and stays that way in my possession. I am just into old things that are original. I won't even get my 56' Coronet painted because it is a "survivor" and original.

 

Some want their women to get a boob job and some don't. Some get hair implants and some don't. Some wear platform shoes and some don't.

 

Doesn't bother me very much (although I am a purist), as long as I am told whether a book has been pressed or not. I just like honesty. As I said, I don't and wouldn't "do it", but it would not stop me from buying a pressed book.

 

I do not see this situation in this thread much different from the Heritage/CGC connection, and that relationship seems to be working okay.

 

Until there is a penalty for failure to disclose pressing, what is a fellow supposed to do? Pressing should be annotated on a CGC label, and requested to be so, by any honest dealer or collector that sells slabbed books. CGC should do this service.

 

 

[esquirecomics]

Sigh. I did try to keep the debate away from pressing. I really did.

 

Though (thumbs u to those who posted their views.

 

Let me try to refocus you guys. The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services. This was what Steve B. stated yesterday as to why he believed there is no ethical concern. I view the situation differently. I'm curious as to the opinions of others in the community.

 

Told them I tought it was a good one and that professionals should be pressing books correctly and not the kind of company/one man show that certain groups send underground that screws up the books. I also gave advise as to the ethics that should be involved and that it should only be pressing and restoration removal that would not harm the book. The example would be the Church copy of Adventure #40. That CT should never be removed, it would ruin the book. Do not press brittle books or they will ruin the book.

 

It was two seperate services with a mission to make money & press books correctly. Just like NCS & PCS, Plain and simple.

 

Works for me and most of the people I know.

 

Heading out to meet a client. Later.

 

[gaz973]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

[kc120us]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

 

I guess that would depend on whether you trust them or not. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say the said company is run by people you implicitly trust (say your family for example). Your mother does the restoration and your father does the grading. You trust them. Can they be impartial?

 

It all comes down to trust.

[gaz973]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

 

I guess that would depend on whether you trust them or not. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say the said company is run by people you implicitly trust (say your family for example). Your mother does the restoration and your father does the grading. You trust them. Can they be impartial?

 

It all comes down to trust.

 

Well, I don't trust a profit making business to be impartial and that's the problem, third party grading should be impartial..

[kc120us]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

 

I guess that would depend on whether you trust them or not. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say the said company is run by people you implicitly trust (say your family for example). Your mother does the restoration and your father does the grading. You trust them. Can they be impartial?

 

It all comes down to trust.

 

Well, I don't trust a profit making business to be impartial and that's the problem, third party grading should be impartial..

 

So then you don't think your parents (or somene else you trust), if they were running a for-profit business based on impartiallity, could be impartial?

[gaz973]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

 

I guess that would depend on whether you trust them or not. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say the said company is run by people you implicitly trust (say your family for example). Your mother does the restoration and your father does the grading. You trust them. Can they be impartial?

 

It all comes down to trust.

 

Well, I don't trust a profit making business to be impartial and that's the problem, third party grading should be impartial..

 

So then you don't think your parents (or somene else you trust), if they were running a for-profit business based on impartiallity, could be impartial?

 

I'm not saying that there are no trustworthy people in the world. My parents for example have demonstrated their levels of ethics to me over the years but I wouldn't expect everyone else to trust them. Similarly, I don't trust a bunch of guys that I don't know to be impartial because I have no idea of their level of ethics. Impartaility is key to being able to trust strangers.

[hockey&comicsguy]

I don't care about pressing.

 

If a book goes from a 9.2 to a 9.8 due to pressing then so be it. It's now a 9.8 book and if somebody wants to charge a bazillion times guide for it so be it. If somebody else is willing to pay a bazillion times guide for it so be it.

 

You know somebody who presses books and you don't like pressing. Don't buy from them. You see a book with a 9.8 you know for a fact used to be a 9.2 and is now listed at an insane price, let somebody else pay for it. It's their money. Afraid that's going to have a trickle down effect on lesser grades, raising those prices? Then go get a job that pays more or buy stuff you can afford.

 

I collect what I want and what makes me happy. I can either afford it or I can't. I don't have to like a price for something but so what. That's life. What the other guy is doing is his own ing business. At the end of the day there's a book, a grade and a price. Pay it or don't. Live your own life, move on and quit worrying about what the other guy is doing with his books or his money.

 

As for this supposed pressing service being under the same umbrella. Again, I don't care. It's not like CGC set this up from day one. They don't/can't/won't, whatever, consider pressing resto. Until they change their minds...get over it.

[conditionfreak]

How would you feel if you had the highest graded Hulk 181 at 9.8 and there were sixteen 9.6's on the census. Then next week your 9.8 is second highest, tied with four others and there are two 9.9's now, due to pressing?

 

Would you press your 9.8, or accept your books new position as tied for third best, without so much as a "damn it"?

 

 

[esquirecomics]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

 

I guess that would depend on whether you trust them or not. Let's take a hypothetical. Let's say the said company is run by people you implicitly trust (say your family for example). Your mother does the restoration and your father does the grading. You trust them. Can they be impartial?

 

It all comes down to trust.

 

Well, I don't trust a profit making business to be impartial and that's the problem, third party grading should be impartial..

 

So then you don't think your parents (or somene else you trust), if they were running a for-profit business based on impartiallity, could be impartial?

 

KC, with all due respect, this hypothetical is too simplistic to be meaningful in this discussion. It is not about "trust" in the nature you are describing with a loved one. Even then I'm sure we each know people, including in our family, who are "trustworthy" yet have done something that betrayed someone's trust.

 

Additionally, and probably more importantly, there are numerous examples of rules/guidelines and even criminal laws that specifically address the ethics of a situation. You do not have to be untrustworthy, in fact, to violate those rules/guidelines or, yes, even criminal ethics laws.

 

And to play devil's advocate, what is it about CGC that garners "trust"? And what level of "trust" are we speaking about? Trust to be honest? Trust to have a worthwhile product? Trust not to take advantage of their customers? Trust not to cheat on their taxes or hire illegal workers? People speak of corporations having their trust but the fact is that is a perception of image that typically exists. There are so many different levels and factors of trust that one cannot make a blanket statement with any legitimacy. I used to have a much higher degree of trust in my bank. I don't anymore. I have a lot of trust in some close friends yet I know they have cheated on their spouses. Should that impact how I trust them?

 

I have no reason not to trust those who work at CGC, or own CCG. I know several of the top CGC and CCG officials. I count them as friends. Do I trust them? I suppose it depends for what?

 

I think the only thing I can say is I trust CGC/CCG will do what is in ITS best interests as a for-profit corporation and I HOPE that those interests overlap with the community in general.

[esquirecomics]

As for this supposed pressing service being under the same umbrella. Again, I don't care. It's not like CGC set this up from day one. They don't/can't/won't, whatever, consider pressing resto. Until they change their minds...get over it.

 

First, the issue is not necessarily pressing. I don't know why everyone keeps turning to that issue. The methods PCS would utilize are irrelevant to the purpose and the conflict that would exist.

 

Second, what difference does it make if CGC/CCG came up with this or a similar idea from the outset in 1999 (and how do you know they did not?), or yesterday. The ethical issues remain the same. Would it make a difference if a spouse decided on their wedding day to cheat, or waited after 10 years of marriage?

 

You can certainly all make up your minds about whether care or not. Staying with the spouse example, I certainly know many people who could care less that their spouse is cheating on them, particularly so long as they don't know. That is their personal choice. I doubt most people feel that way.

 

But does everyone actually understand how this operation was envisioned?

 

Chris Friesen would have sat down the hallway (or somewhere in the same building) from Steve Borock. Chris would have worked on a book to enhance, i.e., increase, its grade, or perhaps removed restoration to garner a blue label. The book then somehow would magically float to a CGC grader.

 

Now, if you've just paid for a service, indeed dollars were taken from your pocket, to have your comic's grade increased, do you expect that increase? Would CGC know that the book had just been worked on, especially when one of its staff had recommended to the submitter that the book should be submitted to Chris (and don't be fooled to think that was not happening)? Who received the submission in the first place? Who would send it out? Who would talk in between with each other?

 

That just scratches the surface. The fact is we know little about whether any safeguards would have been put in place, or whether they would even have made a difference. Sometimes you just can't erect a Chinese Wall, and I think this would be one of those cases.

[hockey&comicsguy]

How would you feel if you had the highest graded Hulk 181 at 9.8 and there were sixteen 9.6's on the census. Then next week your 9.8 is second highest, tied with four others and there are two 9.9's now, due to pressing?

 

Would you press your 9.8, or accept your books new position as tied for third best, without so much as a "damn it"?

 

 

I would accept it. Would I say "damn it"? Maybe. But so what? What can I do about something out of my control?

[lou_fine]

Do I trust them? I suppose it depends for what?

 

I think the only thing I can say is I trust CGC/CCG will do what is in ITS best interests as a for-profit corporation and I HOPE that those interests overlap with the community in general.

 

Mark;

 

Very well stated! (thumbs u

 

CGC most definitely does care about the comic book community, but when push comes to shove, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind at all as to whose interests comes first.

 

 

[hockey&comicsguy]

As for this supposed pressing service being under the same umbrella. Again, I don't care. It's not like CGC set this up from day one. They don't/can't/won't, whatever, consider pressing resto. Until they change their minds...get over it.

 

First, the issue is not necessarily pressing. I don't know why everyone keeps turning to that issue. The methods PCS would utilize are irrelevant to the purpose and the conflict that would exist.

 

Second, what difference does it make if CGC/CCG came up with this or a similar idea from the outset in 1999 (and how do you know they did not?), or yesterday. The ethical issues remain the same. Would it make a difference if a spouse decided on their wedding day to cheat, or waited after 10 years of marriage?

 

You can certainly all make up your minds about whether care or not. Staying with the spouse example, I certainly know many people who could care less that their spouse is cheating on them, particularly so long as they don't know. That is their personal choice. I doubt most people feel that way.

 

But does everyone actually understand how this operation was envisioned?

 

Chris Friesen would have sat down the hallway (or somewhere in the same building) from Steve Borock. Chris would have worked on a book to enhance, i.e., increase, its grade, or perhaps removed restoration to garner a blue label. The book then somehow would magically float to a CGC grader.

 

Now, if you've just paid for a service, indeed dollars were taken from your pocket, to have your comic's grade increased, do you expect that increase? Would CGC know that the book had just been worked on, especially when one of its staff had recommended to the submitter that the book should be submitted to Chris (and don't be fooled to think that was not happening)? Who received the submission in the first place? Who would send it out? Who would talk in between with each other?

 

That just scratches the surface. The fact is we know little about whether any safeguards would have been put in place, or whether they would even have made a difference. Sometimes you just can't erect a Chinese Wall, and I think this would be one of those cases.

 

 

Mark,

 

All of what you're suggesting could very well happen. And like I said. I personally don't care.

 

I gave up trying to control things out of my control long ago. I understand if people have an objection to this, I really do. I'm not denying that there could be a conflict of interest or simply that shady shiite might take place. It just doesn't mean all that much to me. I apologize if my blase attitude comes off preachy. I don't mean to belittle the concerns of others. I just know that if people want to be unethical, they will be. Whether we make it easy for them or not. It's out of my control so worrying about it isn't going to do me any good.

[lou_fine]

My personal stance is that I do appreciate those who sell (like Borock) who unashamedly state that this book or that book they are selling, was or may have been pressed.

 

CF;

 

Which Borock are you talking about!

 

The only Borock that I know of has clearly stated on many occasions that he does not bother to keep track of which book has been pressed and which book has not been pressed. This is because he couldn't care less if a book has been pressed or not and does not understand why anybody else would care. An impossible and absolutely meaningless task to keep track of thousands of books.

 

As a result, any potential purchaser thinking of buying a book from one of his listings was to simply assume that any or all of his books may have been pressed. Don't even think of wasting his time by asking him about a particular book because his statement was a blanket qualifier for all of his books.

 

I am sure you must have been thinking about a different Borock than the one that everybody else knows of here.

[esquirecomics]

My personal stance is that I do appreciate those who sell (like Borock) who unashamedly state that this book or that book they are selling, was or may have been pressed.

 

CF;

 

Which Borock are you talking about!

 

The only Borock that I know of has clearly stated on many occasions that he does not bother to keep track of which book has been pressed and which book has not been pressed. This is because he couldn't care less if a book has been pressed or not and does not understand why anybody else would care. An impossible and absolutely meaningless task to keep track of thousands of books.

 

As a result, any potential purchaser thinking of buying a book from one of his listings was to simply assume that any or all of his books may have been pressed. Don't even think of wasting his time by asking him about a particular book because his statement was a blanket qualifier for all of his books.

 

I am sure you must have been thinking about a different Borock than the one that everybody else knows of here.

 

I was always fond of Fanny Borock. She always smelled good when selling comics.

[esquirecomics]

As for this supposed pressing service being under the same umbrella. Again, I don't care. It's not like CGC set this up from day one. They don't/can't/won't, whatever, consider pressing resto. Until they change their minds...get over it.

 

First, the issue is not necessarily pressing. I don't know why everyone keeps turning to that issue. The methods PCS would utilize are irrelevant to the purpose and the conflict that would exist.

 

Second, what difference does it make if CGC/CCG came up with this or a similar idea from the outset in 1999 (and how do you know they did not?), or yesterday. The ethical issues remain the same. Would it make a difference if a spouse decided on their wedding day to cheat, or waited after 10 years of marriage?

 

You can certainly all make up your minds about whether care or not. Staying with the spouse example, I certainly know many people who could care less that their spouse is cheating on them, particularly so long as they don't know. That is their personal choice. I doubt most people feel that way.

 

But does everyone actually understand how this operation was envisioned?

 

Chris Friesen would have sat down the hallway (or somewhere in the same building) from Steve Borock. Chris would have worked on a book to enhance, i.e., increase, its grade, or perhaps removed restoration to garner a blue label. The book then somehow would magically float to a CGC grader.

 

Now, if you've just paid for a service, indeed dollars were taken from your pocket, to have your comic's grade increased, do you expect that increase? Would CGC know that the book had just been worked on, especially when one of its staff had recommended to the submitter that the book should be submitted to Chris (and don't be fooled to think that was not happening)? Who received the submission in the first place? Who would send it out? Who would talk in between with each other?

 

That just scratches the surface. The fact is we know little about whether any safeguards would have been put in place, or whether they would even have made a difference. Sometimes you just can't erect a Chinese Wall, and I think this would be one of those cases.

 

 

Mark,

 

All of what you're suggesting could very well happen. And like I said. I personally don't care.

 

I gave up trying to control things out of my control long ago. I understand if people have an objection to this, I really do. I'm not denying that there could be a conflict of interest or simply that shady shiite might take place. It just doesn't mean all that much to me. I apologize if my blase attitude comes off preachy. I don't mean to belittle the concerns of others. I just know that if people want to be unethical, they will be. Whether we make it easy for them or not. It's out of my control so worrying about it isn't going to do me any good.

 

I do hear you. And it is frustrating, believe me I know. It's in my nature given the legal work I do not to quit, though sometimes I may want to. The problem is that if everyone took the same attitude, we would all really be in trouble.

 

I wouldn't say "control". Influence is more appropriate. (thumbs u

 

 

[szelim]

The issue I was hoping people would focus on was the ethical boundaries of grading companies also being involved with providing restoration services.

 

How can a grading company that passes judgement on the restorational condition of a book be considered impartial when it is involved with providing restoration services?

This is kinda like securities brokerage firms which have research departments. Such firms are supposed to have firewalls to separate the research from the sales departments to avoid conflict of interest in forming stock analyses.