Grader Notes

[Mxwll Smrt]

You're confused and things are being taken out of context.

 

 

1. From you - The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

1. From me - No, the notes are a derivative property of the person that employed CGC on a work for hire basis.

 

2. From you - Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken?

 

2. From me - a non-exclusive license, absent consideration, can be revoked at any time. A person who hires CGC to perform work under a "work for hire" basis has the right to say to CGC that they (CGC) does not have the right to sell the data associated with the book the client has paid CGC to grade - because the notes are part of the grade and in essence the new state of the book, which is a derivative product - the book is no longer considered raw, is in a plastic holder and has been graded by industry accepted specialists.

 

Furthermore, I did not mention damages before in any post and that's for you to decide.

 

3. From you - When a rape happens, a woman is emotionally and/or physically injured--what injury or loss is a CGC customer experiencing from the sale of the notes?

 

3. From me - that would go to damages - and I haven't discussed that. What my comment is meant to be is an illustration of the revocation of a non-exclusive license (albeit graphic and disturbing).

[pickycollector]

Hint: Not everyone who calls for notes is looking to CPR a book.

Totally agree.

 

Many people buy the book, not the label. I am one of those. And I am not interested in the CPR game.

 

I used to call CGC for the notes most of the time I wanted to buy a book for my collection. Reason is that I crack most of them as I want to keep them raw in Mylars. It is then very useful to know what kind of defect I may expect to find on a book, especially when buying on-line and not being able to inspect the book in hands.

 

Now that I have to pay $15 or $30 just to know the defects on a book, my interest in buying CGC books in the future has now extremely decreased.

 

The more time passes, the less interesting this hobby is becoming.

[asteroid-comix]

I didn't read this whole thread but my opinion is that subscibers to the Collector's Society should get like one free graders notes per month, or so many per year with the subscription so the casual user still gets a shot at graders notes once in awhile.

 

There should be a separate subscription service for heavy users, not per book, that's crazy.

 

I agree with the poster that said that they can't believe this was being given away all these years, I thought the same thing.

 

This is brilliant

 

[Calamerica]

Hint: Not everyone who calls for notes is looking to CPR a book.

Totally agree.

 

Many people buy the book, not the label. I am one of those. And I am not interested in the CPR game.

 

I used to call CGC for the notes most of the time I wanted to buy a book for my collection. Reason is that I crack most of them as I want to keep them raw in Mylars. It is then very useful to know what kind of defect I may expect to find on a book, especially when buying on-line and not being able to inspect the book in hands.

 

Now that I have to pay $15 or $30 just to know the defects on a book, my interest in buying CGC books in the future has now extremely decreased.

 

The more time passes, the less interesting this hobby is becoming.

 

[mschmidt]

What's next...a fee for scanning the CGC Holder with your

own book in it?

 

They do charge this fee. They take the scans anyway, but if you want a copy of the images, they've been charging customers for this since extremely early on--perhaps from day 1, not sure of that though, I heard of the fee for the first time I believe in 2001.

 

Gemma posted in a different thread that CGC pretty much only scans books where people have paid for the service and books they find of particular interest (for inclusion in the gallery, for instance). The vast majority of graded books aren't scanned.

[Cat-Man_America]

IMO, it's a work for hire contract - and there's no such thing as a royalty free non-exclusive license en perpetuity. Compiling data is one thing. Charging a fee for access to data is another. Not clearly communicating to the client that there's commerce based on the process that's being entirely covered by the client or offering a reduction for license is negligent misrepresentation and material concealment. Again, JMO.

 

Why would they need a license for the data they're selling? It costs their customer nothing to compile or sell it. What law makes written descriptions of an item not created by the item's owner the property of that owner?

 

I'm not a lawyer, I've just had a long-time interest in the law surrounding creative works, particularly copyright/patent/trademark law. I'm not saying law doesn't exist, I'm just not familiar with one that covers this.

 

 

I'm no legal expert either, but I do see what Mxwell Smrt is getting at.

 

First of all, I don't think he's describing a physical license, such as a document, but rather the granting of permission, as in being given license to do something.

 

Secondly, and more to the point, the legal(?) gray area is whether any license to resell work product has been granted to CGC via the convoluted legal jargon of the T&C document. The sticking point has nothing to do with creative rights associated with who manufactured the comic book, it's about a change in policy regarding the work product acquired under contract for a grade appraisal and what rights, if any, the owner of the comic book has after the work has been completed.

 

Ultimately, I suppose the owner could claim a right to privacy not wishing to have any information disclosed about books he or she has submitted for grading. For a dealer, this would seem counter intuitive, but full disclosure might depend on the actual grade received in contrast to what internal data was exposed in the grader's notes (some flaws being more distasteful to collectors than others). More likely, the dealer might prefer complete disclosure, allowing free dissemination of all information associated with grading his/her books. Assuming the latter, the ethical issue then falls squarely on CGC.

 

The two problems CGC's new data selling policy generate are 1) confusion over whether owners have any right to disseminate requested information about the books they own, and 2) whether CGC has the right to charge exorbitant fees In a steeply tiered fashion for work product previously contracted and paid for by others. If a dealer submitted a lot of walk-throughs or expedited appraisals it could make acquisition of those notes by prospective customers a deal breaker. IOW, it could be argued that this new policy is more than just double-dipping, it also penalizes those customers who pay the most for a quicker turnaround.

 

It still begs the question, what were they thinking?

 

Sorry about the long response, but I can't find a more succinct way of putting this; maybe some of our board's bright legal minds can state this better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cd4ever]

If I don't like the graders notes, can I ask for a refund??

 

I don't have a problem with charging a nominal fee for this service but those prices are laughable. You have to think they are designed less to make money and more to discourage the practice.

[COI]

All one has to do is say no. For amplification, there's a problem with the language and substance in the disclaimer. A non-exclusive license, where no royalty is paid, can be terminated at any time. Period. End of discussion.

 

On a date with a pretty woman, boundaries get established. No means no. End of discussion (and yes, it's meant to illustrate boundaries and limitations).

 

Interesting.

[Boba]

I didn't read this whole thread but my opinion is that subscibers to the Collector's Society should get like one free graders notes per month, or so many per year with the subscription so the casual user still gets a shot at graders notes once in awhile.

 

There should be a separate subscription service for heavy users, not per book, that's crazy.

I agree with the poster that said that they can't believe this was being given away all these years, I thought the same thing.

 

This is brilliant

 

This had been said earlier in the thread, but it's probably is moving in the right direction as far as a solution. Regular subscribers should probably get something, maybe like the 3 free subs they also get 3 fee graders notes "certificates". I bet the heavy-users would be ok with paying a separate subscription fee to have unlimited access to graders notes, with maybe a small charge to have a certificate sent via mail to the owner (or purchaser).

[comicwiz]

 

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

 

Your reasons will be different from mine, and the last thing I want is for any book concealed in a tamper evident holder to have rusty staples or evidence of rust migration.

 

My point of view on this subject - as a seller interested in respecting the buyers concerns and not just about making a quick buck, you either crack out the book, buy the notes, or lose the sale. End of story.

 

And of course, I'm not that unscrupulous an individual to lead a seller on to proceed with buying notes unless I was sure I was buying the book, conditional on it not having rusty staples.

 

Too bad CGC decided to remove that notation from the label.

[pickycollector]

Maybe I missed it, but are those prices per month

This is what I had hoped. I would happily pay $15 or maybe $20 a month for unlimited access to online grading notes. If what they're looking for is a revenue stream - then this is the way to go. Many more would subscribe and the stream would be stronger and more consistent. I'm never going to pay $15 for one book's notes.... Just IMO.

+1

 

Would be more acceptable that way

[comicwiz]

What's next...a fee for scanning the CGC Holder with your

own book in it?

 

They do charge this fee. They take the scans anyway, but if you want a copy of the images, they've been charging customers for this since extremely early on--perhaps from day 1, not sure of that though, I heard of the fee for the first time I believe in 2001.

 

When someone over at CGC decided to use my comic as a coaster for their drink, when I asked them if they had a scan of the book when they received it, they told me they never took a scan of it. So either they lied and concealed it to protect their own interests, or they don't always take a scan.

 

When I brought this to Mark Haspel's attention, he told me CGC NEVER allow their staff to take food or drinks in the grading room, even though I recently found out about the past transgressions of a staff member in the QC department.

[mndb369]

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

 

This assumes the book is actually in front of you--they're useful to online buyers.

 

+1

 

When I came back to collecting comics nearly three years ago I bought (from a well-known dealer's online site) what I considered to be one of my grails since I never had the disposable income to buy it when I was younger and collecting in the 80s.

 

I was not really looking to upgrade the book but eventually got the fever to want an even better grade. It wasn't until I put the book for sale (here in the sale threads) that a prospective buyer told me that it had rusty staples. I was shocked since I really couldn't see the rust only that the staples were not exactly shiny and clean.

 

My cousin (bruno_s4) told me that I should call for notes (I did not know they existed) to verify the rust and find out if there was anything else unknown about the book. Of course there was a note for very slight rust on the bottom staple. Needless to say the book sold for nearly 20% lower than what I paid for it.

 

This provided insight into a few things for me: 1) notes are a valuable resource for buyers, 2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples, 3) certain defects are unknown/unclear when buying from scans, and 4) some dealers do not fully disclose everything about the books for sale.

 

I know that many people can argue that along with buying the book you are buying the grade and a third party grader can and should be trusted to provide a fair, reliable and complete evaluation of said encapsulated comic. I would agree with that principle so long as material defects that are not always visible in scans such as foxing, stains and rusty staples are disclosed somehow on every book that is slabbed (i.e. on the back of the printed CGC label).

 

In the end I will have no choice but to pay for these notes for a major purchase if the information is not provided, disclosed or answered. I will do it begrudgingly and with growing disdain for CGC as I will not put myself in a position where I am buying something I do not want.

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

[2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples

 

They do actually downgrade, and the highest grade I've seen on a comic with rusty staples is 9.2

[Marty Mann]

Do you think Heritage will provide Grader Notes on request or

will it be the buyer who must seek them out...will this slow down

the bidding process?

 

mm

 

 

[blazingbob]

The book sold for 20% less because of the rusty staple?

 

Can I ask what the book was? Who it was bought from?

 

What should the dealer have disclosed?

 

CGC graded the book right? I don't have notes on the over 3000 books I've had CGC graded and if I knew the poster I would have questions if it was a book I sold him. Problem is with this forum is I don't know enough about the poster (Another big issue with me).

 

 

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I think everyone who submits raw books to CGC should include a request that grading notes not be recorded or sold.

 

In the event that a class action suit does improve things, those submitters would receive compensation. Everyone else will get nothing because they didn't claim the rights beforehand.

[mndb369]

[2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples

 

They do actually downgrade, and the highest grade I've seen on a comic with rusty staples is 9.2

 

I received a 9.6 graded book (not the transaction described above) from another online retailer with rusty staples.

[DiceX]

[2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples

 

They do actually downgrade, and the highest grade I've seen on a comic with rusty staples is 9.2

 

I received a 9.6 graded book (not the transaction described above) from another online retailer with rusty staples.

 

It's possible for staples to rust after the book is slabbed.

 

 

[comicwiz]

[2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples

 

They do actually downgrade, and the highest grade I've seen on a comic with rusty staples is 9.2

 

I received a 9.6 graded book (not the transaction described above) from another online retailer with rusty staples.

 

That's surprising, and the highest grade I've ever heard. Any chance you could point us to this book as it definitely breaks ground on my understanding of grade thresholds allowed for this defect. The fact that it was mentioned in the notes eliminates the possibility that they rusted in a fireproof safe after the book was graded.