Grader Notes

[DrWatson]

at heart, thats a great summation. but you laid it on pretty thickly, CGC cares what we think, and cares for its customers. All companies that hope to stay in business constantly take the temperature of their clients in their zeal for greater income and security of the business. CGC isn't tone deaf or evil. Just doing their job, tending to business. As we all do with ours. no?

If Brian's post was laying it on thick, then yours is pie in the sky.

[Aman619]

Sounds like a great story for 60 minutes

 

maybe. If the big sales continue it just might be worth a few minutes of a story for them. But their first question will be something like: Why just comics? all collectibles genres have similar issues of trust and authentication, they are all houses of cards that rely solely on client trust. So wheres the story for them? Why comics except that we here are interested in them ...

[Aman619]

at heart, thats a great summation. but you laid it on pretty thickly, CGC cares what we think, and cares for its customers. All companies that hope to stay in business constantly take the temperature of their clients in their zeal for greater income and security of the business. CGC isn't tone deaf or evil. Just doing their job, tending to business. As we all do with ours. no?

If Brian's post was laying it on thick, then yours is pie in the sky.

 

 

well, many of you guys just want to be angry and get your pitchforks. its all complaints and incompetence and conspiracy. its getting old.

[lizards2]

at heart, thats a great summation. but you laid it on pretty thickly, CGC cares what we think, and cares for its customers. All companies that hope to stay in business constantly take the temperature of their clients in their zeal for greater income and security of the business. CGC isn't tone deaf or evil. Just doing their job, tending to business. As we all do with ours. no?

If Brian's post was laying it on thick, then yours is pie in the sky.

 

 

well, many of you guys just want to be angry and get your pitchforks. its all complaints and incompetence and conspiracy. its getting old.

I admire their upfront competence in milking money out of people who slab books that have no chance of selling for any more than slabbing and postage costs......., or less ::

[Aman619]

Its getting to that point yes. But aren't we all to blame for chasing labels? They sell the crack, but we smoke and line up for more. now you wanna blame CGC for the falling prices?

[lizards2]

Its getting to that point yes. But aren't we all to blame for chasing labels? They sell the crack, but we smoke and line up for more. now you wanna blame CGC for the falling prices?

I'm not to blame, nor do I blame CGC for anything other than sucking money out of your wallets. I set GPA lows, and crack almost all my purchases. And I never submit. I'm a collector. I love low prices.

 

So in reality, I just help beat down the addicts.

[Foolkiller]

Aman,

 

i'm not making a value judgment at all on that. What I'm saying is not that they don't care about all of their customers, but they don't care about what a lot of what the people on these boards have to say.

 

They're not holding a gun to your head saying slab books. We chose this system. We the community. And now we have to deal with the reality at hand by ceding so much power over to them.

 

Do I think they care what we on the boards have to say? Absolutely not. Do I think they care what their customers like Bob Storms or maybe larger submitters might think? Sure.

 

CGC is a product of what collectors said they wanted. If you (not you literally) want to change that, you need to change your behavior. With that said, the gravy train feeds a lot of people, so quite honestly, I don't see it happening.

 

You're right, CGC isn't evil, but many, many companies are indifferent. Monopolies are even worse. It's not that they don't care about their customers, they don't care about the narrow subset who represent a tiny portion of their submissions, those who won't move the needle at all in terms of their business, and are far less concerned about PR because they are the only game in town. They also know the vast majority of collectors who buy CGC don't care about or even know many of these kinds of details, know there is no alternative and know that most people won't change their behavior one iota.

 

In that sense, they are very much in the majority of how most companies operate: it's about the bottom line.

[sacentaur]

I think the white label would get books out into the market place with the CGC "defined" grade which is what everyone is paying for.

 

The problem here is that the "defined" grade is actually undefined in your hypothetical White label scneario. That White label 8.0 book may - with a subsequent resto check - turn out to be a Blue or a Purple label. Huge difference in today's marketplace.

 

I understand what you're envisioning with the White label theory, but it simply won't work. There is no such thing as a "defined" grade without a resto check.

 

CGC has it right, at least in this instance.

[rodan57]

I think the white label would get books out into the market place with the CGC "defined" grade which is what everyone is paying for.

 

The problem here is that the "defined" grade is actually undefined in your hypothetical White label scneario. That White label 8.0 book may - with a subsequent resto check - turn out to be a Blue or a Purple label. Huge difference in today's marketplace.

 

I understand what you're envisioning with the White label theory, but it simply won't work. There is no such thing as a "defined" grade without a resto check.

 

CGC has it right, at least in this instance.

 

I see this the same way. A proposed white label would simply be a WLOD. Hard to say and without the status or marketplace presence of a blue label.

[r100comics]

Got my first and only notes (the only one I was interested in knowing at $5) until the price drops. Here is what it looks like (some info edited out):

 

 

 

 

 

"Lite wear" ? "Lite crease" ?

 

I didn't realize the graders were teenage girls.

 

For $5, at least spell the words correctly.

[WEBHEAD]

I'll put on a cap on this... how about a promise to post any and all grade requests, with some of the data redacted. This will for once and for all determine if this "new" product has any use, and also will show just how little is documented to provide a "finacial" asseesment since this is exactly what we are asking for.

[musicmeta]

Right now, I think the message is clear, nothing is changing, and the boards no longer carry the weight they once did. All this outcry and a big nothing in terms of changes. Unfortunately these days, the boards represents a small minority of the collecting community, most of whom are making money from CGC and will continue to.

 

I doubt Steve Eichenbaum either reads or cares about emails from these boards.

 

Ideas like, let's stop the resto check, what are the grading criteria and let's try and get CGC to change some fundamental process or philosophy we don't like isn't going to happen.

 

Most of the people on these boards make money off of CGC. Whether it's by selling here or getting your books graded. Some of you are collectors. I realize that. Some of you have raised real legitimate complaints.

 

But CGC is a monopoly, and things are not going to change.

 

If you want to change things, and don't expect it overnight, but you want to change the market, stop buying slabbed books. Stop forcing dealers to rely on slabs to sell you books at top dollar. Stop requiring sig series in order to buy a signed book and pay top dollar. Buy keys at very aggressive numbers raw. Try and flip them raw.

 

Unwilling to do this? Then accept this reality. CGC is such a dominant monopoly that they don't care about what the kavetching on this message boards have to say. They are indifferent to you. It's a nuisance to them when someone calls and complains, but it isn't going to move the needle for them.

 

This is the current state of things. And to those of you dreaming of the legitimate competitor, don't hold your breath.

 

So if you want to shift the market, buy raw, buy from dealers who know how to grade, pay them the same aggressive prices as CGC books, and you can change the market. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

Well stated!

Like a movie quote... "It's all about bucks kid. The rest is just conversation"

[Davenport]

i'm not making a value judgment at all on that. What I'm saying is not that they don't care about all of their customers, but they don't care about what a lot of what the people on these boards have to say.

 

They're not holding a gun to your head saying slab books. We chose this system. We the community. And now we have to deal with the reality at hand by ceding so much power over to them.

 

Do I think they care what we on the boards have to say? Absolutely not. Do I think they care what their customers like Bob Storms or maybe larger submitters might think? Sure.

 

CGC is a product of what collectors said they wanted. If you (not you literally) want to change that, you need to change your behavior. With that said, the gravy train feeds a lot of people, so quite honestly, I don't see it happening.

 

You're right, CGC isn't evil, but many, many companies are indifferent. Monopolies are even worse. It's not that they don't care about their customers, they don't care about the narrow subset who represent a tiny portion of their submissions, those who won't move the needle at all in terms of their business, and are far less concerned about PR because they are the only game in town. They also know the vast majority of collectors who buy CGC don't care about or even know many of these kinds of details, know there is no alternative and know that most people won't change their behavior one iota.

 

In that sense, they are very much in the majority of how most companies operate: it's about the bottom line.

You're describing a small niche market that continues to shrink. Whether shrinking happens by default or is embedded in the business model, who knows?...

 

CGC rolled out as an answer to the "wild west" of eBaying, the dangers of Dupcak. A way for hobbyists to cover their butts...

 

Almost immediately rumors of insider-only 'down the hall' grade manipulation started. And some people left.

 

Some well known collections started reappearing with higher grades, and that trimmed Batman 11 happened. Some people left.

 

PCS was announced. That was enough for some to exit.

 

The Ewert fiasco happened. Some more people left.

 

Some hard core enthusiasts sold, only to watch their high grade books quickly reappear higher. Enough for some to let it all go.

 

Pressing debates. Sayonara.

 

And this 'Grader's Notes' fees will lose a few.

 

It just seems like a very tiny niche-economy is slowly evolving, where those that work the system will eventually feed off one another.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

But what you're missing in your summary (which I believe to be fairly accurate, if incomplete) is the thousands of new collectors coming in who have no clue as to the dirty little secrets we've been witness to these last few years.

 

Mention PCS, or Dupcak, or Ewert and all you'll get is blank stares or disbelief.

 

However, they'll at the same time be asking what sort of grade bump they'll receive if the get their book with a popped staple and a piece missing pressed.

[Davenport]

But what you're missing in your summary (which I believe to be fairly accurate, if incomplete) is the thousands of new collectors coming in who have no clue as to the dirty little secrets we've been witness to these last few years.

 

Mention PCS, or Dupcak, or Ewert and all you'll get is blank stares or disbelief.

 

However, they'll at the same time be asking what sort of grade bump they'll receive if the get their book with a popped staple and a piece missing pressed.

Absolutely 100% correct. But that's the big 'unknown' (for me).

Does the model rely on a 'next gen' to continuously re-chum the shark tank?

 

Is that how it works in coins? (where the model is imported from)

 

I understand some hobbyists will wander in unescorted. And a few will linger long enough to understand it's a grade-game of manipulation, give it a go.

But a couple of chomps will have it's effect, and off they go. Don't you think?

[Boba]

it kills me that newcomers to slabbing their books alway come here and cry foul and that CGC is crooked and incompetent. They have now graded a million books (?) in 12 years.... and THEY are the problem? or could it be overripe expectations on the part of those new to the system?

 

Completely agree. 99.999999% of the time, a book that was 'under-graded' by CGC was simply over-graded by its owner.

 

I think that percentage is a little optimistic, but I will agree they are pretty diligent and that leads to a relatively high level of accuracy. But there are those cases where they make a mistake and that is one reason why I maintain the belief they should allow, certainly the purchaser of the certification, to have access to the notes to learn what CGC based their assessment on. Perhaps calling in for the graders notes the unwritten guarantee of transparency was have become accustomed to having.

[Boba]

They are the only game in town. They have a defined process, whatever it is, and they're not about to tell you what it is, because CGC is a business.

So true

[Flaming_Telepath]

it kills me that newcomers to slabbing their books alway come here and cry foul and that CGC is crooked and incompetent. They have now graded a million books (?) in 12 years.... and THEY are the problem? or could it be overripe expectations on the part of those new to the system?

 

Completely agree. 99.999999% of the time, a book that was 'under-graded' by CGC was simply over-graded by its owner.

 

I think that percentage is a little optimistic, but I will agree they are pretty diligent and that leads to a relatively high level of accuracy. But there are those cases where they make a mistake and that is one reason why I maintain the belief they should allow, certainly the purchaser of the certification, to have access to the notes to learn what CGC based their assessment on. Perhaps calling in for the graders notes the unwritten guarantee of transparency was have become accustomed to having.

 

I don't believe there's a high level of accuracy at all.

 

I think they swing from 'acceptable' to 'loose' to 'very loose' with neither rhyme nor reason.

 

What they don't seem to do is 'under-grade'. In eleven years of submitting, buying and selling, I can remember two books that I thought were harshly treated...out of many thousands.

[Boba]

I doubt Steve Eichenbaum either reads or cares about emails from these boards

I don't know what will come of it, but I can say I got a response to my email to Steve that they're looking into it.

So at least in this instance we've been heard.

[Boba]

it kills me that newcomers to slabbing their books alway come here and cry foul and that CGC is crooked and incompetent. They have now graded a million books (?) in 12 years.... and THEY are the problem? or could it be overripe expectations on the part of those new to the system?

 

Completely agree. 99.999999% of the time, a book that was 'under-graded' by CGC was simply over-graded by its owner.

 

I think that percentage is a little optimistic, but I will agree they are pretty diligent and that leads to a relatively high level of accuracy. But there are those cases where they make a mistake and that is one reason why I maintain the belief they should allow, certainly the purchaser of the certification, to have access to the notes to learn what CGC based their assessment on. Perhaps calling in for the graders notes the unwritten guarantee of transparency was have become accustomed to having.

 

I don't believe there's a high level of accuracy at all.

 

I think they swing from 'acceptable' to 'loose' to 'very loose' with neither rhyme nor reason.

 

What they don't seem to do is 'under-grade'. In eleven years of submitting, buying and selling, I can remember two books that I thought were harshly treated...out of many thousands.

Admittedly I'm skimming these threads so I can go outside and enjoy the day,

but guess you're saying they overgrade a lot more than under grade. That's a problem.

Unfortunately I haven't ever been the recipient of one of those gift grades.