Tintin interior for 2,100,000€

[Cyclops]

This can`t be true. We`ve been told repeatedly, emphatically and definitively that collectors of OA are already financially stretched to pay $657,000 for a page. It`s simply impossible that there could be collectors out there who can afford $3 million for a page.

 

Are you RMA in disguise? Everybody knows that these are two separate markets with different pools of buyers.

 

From what I've heard about Tintin collectors, this price doesn't surprise me at all. It's a very special comic strip.

[drdroom]

Pretty sweet page. You couldn't ask for a more complete representation of the strip on a single sheet.

 

I have heard that more European collectors are getting involved in the Heritage auctions, can anybody confirm?

 

I was chatting with a French OA dealer a couple of months ago about various artists and their markets/ importance. Mentioned Kirby, and he shrugged as if to suggest that these were the Olympian heights --we had a bit of a language barrier -- and said "Kirby, Hergé, Tezuka." If this is a typical European attitude, and I think it is, then Kirby prices must look pretty reasonable from where they stand. But of course, most Hergé and Tezuka OA is locked up, whereas Kirbys are scattered to the winds, so the supply aspect is significant.

[tth2]

This can`t be true. We`ve been told repeatedly, emphatically and definitively that collectors of OA are already financially stretched to pay $657,000 for a page. It`s simply impossible that there could be collectors out there who can afford $3 million for a page.

 

Are you RMA in disguise? Everybody knows that these are two separate markets with different pools of buyers.

I`m sure you`re deliberately missing my point, which is why are there European collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for their OA, but it`s impossible for there to be American collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for OA?

[delekkerste]

This can`t be true. We`ve been told repeatedly, emphatically and definitively that collectors of OA are already financially stretched to pay $657,000 for a page. It`s simply impossible that there could be collectors out there who can afford $3 million for a page.

 

Are you RMA in disguise? Everybody knows that these are two separate markets with different pools of buyers.

I`m sure you`re deliberately missing my point, which is why are there European collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for their OA, but it`s impossible for there to be American collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for OA?

 

Your post mockingly said that this news can't be true because someone (i.e., me) said that collectors of OA are stretched to pay $657K for a page. And my response to you was that there isn't just one OA market and one group of OA collectors; it's very established that the European market (particularly for Tintin) is its own animal and, as such, there's no read through for US comic art from this sale. Not that yours was even an accurate representation of my argument to begin with - I never said that $657K was some kind of cap on American OA nor that there weren't collectors willing and able to spend 7 figures; in fact, I agreed with you in another thread and quite explicitly said otherwise.

[Bronty]

[tth2]

This can`t be true. We`ve been told repeatedly, emphatically and definitively that collectors of OA are already financially stretched to pay $657,000 for a page. It`s simply impossible that there could be collectors out there who can afford $3 million for a page.

 

Are you RMA in disguise? Everybody knows that these are two separate markets with different pools of buyers.

I`m sure you`re deliberately missing my point, which is why are there European collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for their OA, but it`s impossible for there to be American collectors willing and able to pay 7 figures for OA?

 

Your post mockingly said that this news can't be true because someone (i.e., me) said that collectors of OA are stretched to pay $657K for a page. And my response to you was that there isn't just one OA market and one group of OA collectors; it's very established that the European market (particularly for Tintin) is its own animal and, as such, there's no read through for US comic art from this sale. Not that yours was even an accurate representation of my argument to begin with - I never said that $657K was some kind of cap on American OA nor that there weren't collectors willing and able to spend 7 figures; in fact, I agreed with you in another thread and quite explicitly said otherwise.

And yet you keep talking about how the psychological barrier has now run up against the financial barrier (of $657K), and talking about how all of the OA collectors are all known and defined.

 

So if these known and quantified collectors are so financially stretched to meet a mere $657K threshold, why would they also be able to spend 7 figures so easily?

 

And why are European collectors able to financially spend millions but American collectors not? I`m not saying those European Tin Tin collectors are going to start buying American OA and constitute the long-awaited new blood in this hobby, I`m just curious why you think that a bunch of Europeans, with economic demographics much worse than American economic demographics, are not subject to the same psychological and financial barriers that you claim American collectors are subject to.

[chromium]

It's almost like Europe heard about the wolvie page being an interior record and decided to lay the smackdown! The buyers of the expensive American pieces are pretty much known. Does anyone know who is taking down these big European pieces?

 

OMG, it must be Gerard Depardieu!

 

I only know a few of the players over there, but, if I was working up an FBI profile, I'd guess that these European Tintin-buying BSDs:

 

- primarily hail from France and the Benelux countries (with some scattered around other European countries as well)

- are often dealers and dealer/collectors or old-time, old money collectors (and the former will often sell to the latter)

- are probably on average older and wealthier than their US BSD counterparts

- grew up with and are primarily interested in European BD art and not US superhero comic art

 

In any case, there has long been a disparity between the European OA market and the American one. IMO, they are different markets with very different participants and so there is no good reason for prices to converge. Just think about how a market reaches equilibrium - buyers in the more expensive European market would sell that art, driving prices down, and turn around and buy the cheaper American OA, driving prices up until the price disparity largely disappears. Of course, that's never going to happen because the people who are willing to shell out $3.5 million for Tintin are not the same people who love Wolverine and are willing to shell out $657K for a Hulk #180 page.

 

The buyer of this latest Belgian masterpiece is American.

[Eric Seffinga]

http://www.sadtrombone.com/?play=true&play=true&play=true

[vagocollectibles]

I'm from Belgium and proud that the Belgian/French artists get this kind of recognition.

 

However, from my POV (I'm 38 years old) I feel like the US comics were probably more present over here when I was a kid - trough the Dutch editions that Juniorpress published- than books like TinTin - or Kuifje as he's known over here.

 

Sure, we had the books, but (Belgian) books like Jommeke, Nero and certainly Suske & Wiske were much more known and read by kids than Kuifje. He's more from the generation of my parents.

 

I remember when I was a small kid it was Jommeke and the Donald & Dagobert Duck comics for me, when I was a bit older it was Suske & Wiske and I started paying attention to the Marvel and DC comics of my older brother.

 

The 'golden' years for me must have been from when I was like 7 to 12 (1982-1987). It was the Marvel comics all the way for me in that period. The only outsider I paid attention to was Buck Danny (I guess Top Gun had something to do with this ). Somewhat later also Largo Winch came around and stayed constantly in my attention field.

 

Those years brought Star Wars comics to our bookshelves (they started publishing the translations years after they were released in the US), 4(!) Spider-Man series, Hulk, FF, Conan, Defenders, ... - they were ALL present on the shelves in our bookstores. And that period had both Secret Wars wich was a big deal for the kids on the playground.

 

That's were my collection has it's roots ... Pure nostalgia to those years - and heck, they sure released some pretty amazing stuff in that era.

[delekkerste]

The buyer of this latest Belgian masterpiece is American.

 

OK, but who makes up the market as a whole?

 

And who is the American (if not his name, a general description)? Steven Spielberg? None of the usual suspects has shown an inclination towards buying this material and probably only a couple have the financial wherewithal to pull it off even if they wanted to. And that goes back to my thesis that these are largely disparate markets (US vs. European OA). That doesn't mean that there are no Americans buying European OA (and we know there are Europeans who are buying American OA), it's that the guys who are buying $3.5 million Tintin art are not the same guys buying $657K Hulk #180 pages.

[delekkerste]

And yet you keep talking about how the psychological barrier has now run up against the financial barrier (of $657K), and talking about how all of the OA collectors are all known and defined.

 

So if these known and quantified collectors are so financially stretched to meet a mere $657K threshold, why would they also be able to spend 7 figures so easily?

 

I never defined the financial barrier on any single piece being $657K. I am saying that, generally speaking, the psychological barrier in many cases has been supplanted by financial barriers. I don't know where you're drawing these misrepresentations between the two from, as they certainly don't represent my views or what I said.

 

All the BSD collectors of American OA are largely known and defined (whether they are American themselves or not). Even if it was an American who bought the $3.5 million Tintin, I don't see why that would change anything unless that person was also one of the top American OA collectors (and, if it was Spielberg or Lucas, those guys have not been active in the mainstream American OA market in years/decades).

 

 

And why are European collectors able to financially spend millions but American collectors not? I`m not saying those European Tin Tin collectors are going to start buying American OA and constitute the long-awaited new blood in this hobby, I`m just curious why you think that a bunch of Europeans, with economic demographics much worse than American economic demographics, are not subject to the same psychological and financial barriers that you claim American collectors are subject to.

 

You're making the assumption that the typical collector of SA/BA American OA has the same financial profile of a collector of European art. My guess is that the types of people collecting each type of art is very different. You're right - American economic demographics are better than their European counterparts. But, no one would argue that Europeans collecting Picassos as a group are worse off than Americans collecting comic art.

 

I think the typical collector, whether they are American or European, who buys high-end Tintin art is simply wealthier than the typical buyer of American comic art.

[westform]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I and probably many out there strongly disagree with the statement that American and European buyers comprise two different and separate markets. I have not found this to be the case at all. I buy and sell from plenty of Europeans and they likewise from me. Again, just look at CAF to bear out the cross continental shared interests. While we are not always as familiar with some of their comic artists, they are very savvy about ours. Sometimes, you can even track who is going to be your buyer for a given piece based on whether the dollar is strong or weak against the Euro, not according to what particular piece you put up.

 

I would think an explanation for record setting prices of European Comic treasures to be the fact that comic art in Europe and much of the rest of the world has gained legitimacy. Comic art is held in high regard over there, as opposed to our collectors still feeling like second class Art citizens. If and when we in America ever put aside our biases and embrace our cultural pop treasures you could see an even greater skyrocketing of prices on OA here.

 

9 out of 10 people I try to explain my collection to, cannot fathom what I am talking about. They still think I collect comic books and cannot seem to understand the underlying and separate collectible of the artwork that went into making the books. I don't think they see it as art so where does the 'artwork' come in, if you see what I mean.

 

I'm not sure who bought the Tintin art, I would have loved to own it... or any other Tintin art; but I can see an American putting out that kind of dough as frankly a pretty safe bet for the short or long term given the fact that he is participating in a legitimate recognized 'Art' market when buying one of these Euro cultural treasures. Of course, it could have been Spielberg who wakes up and sneezes that kind of dough each morning...

[delekkerste]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you

 

Not to be flippant, but, yes, you are misunderstanding me. I never said that there aren't plenty of Europeans buying American OA (of course that's not the case). All I'm saying is that the people buying Tintin and other high-end European OA for 6 and 7-figures, regardless of their national origin, are generally not the same people buying American superhero OA at the highest level. They attract different kinds of buyers and are thus disparate markets. It's kind of like comparing Formula 1 to Indycar - there are huge similarities on the surface and there are some crossover fans, but, generally speaking, they attract different types of adherents.* That's it, nothing else - anything else people are attributing to me is being incorrectly inferred on their part. Given that we can account for almost all of the high-end American OA sales of recent years (pretty much anything that has sold for more than $160K with the exception of the ASM #121 cover), that really shouldn't be a controversial statement.

 

And, yes, I do agree with you that the "legitimacy" of European OA has been a factor in these kinds of prices for Tintin and the bluest of blue chip European art - which is why I suspect that it has attracted a tonier set of collectors than American OA has to date. Whether American OA can achieve the same level of legitimacy remains open to debate. To date, it's really been the Clowes, Crumbs, Panters, Wares, etc. that have gotten any sheen of legitimacy, not the mainstream Marvel and DC artists. Who knows, maybe mainstream American OA will get there. Or, maybe it's just a cultural thing and it will struggle to catch on here to the extent it has in Europe, like professional soccer.

 

 

 

 

 

* And, yes, I do know about big European collectors like Bernard and others who collect both, but until I see guys like him competing for the likes of Hulk #180 pages @ $657K, I think the general point holds - let's not pick nits here.

[Bronty]

So who is this American buyer of the tintin art?

[stinkininkin]

Here is a random question and perhaps the answer is unknowable, but could the strong price for the Tintin be related to not just to the steady growth in the OA market (both US and Euro), but directly to the just completed Heritage auction? Those surprisingly strong results had some people speculating, Gene included, that there might now be a significantly higher expectation for prices asked and prices paid for anything of quality. Just wonder if this result is an early domino falling in some sort of tipping point scenario, or just another outlier.

 

I'm hoping for the latter scenario.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

[tb]

[...]

I think the typical collector, whether they are American or European, who buys high-end Tintin art is simply wealthier than the typical buyer of American comic art.

 

From what I've learned from talking with Belgian Tintin collectors, I think this hits the nail. A couple of years ago, I purchased a single Tintin panel for a price that would translate to $300,000+ for the full page and that was by no means an outlier. The market for Herge art is a _completely_ different universe and culture compared to the US market for OA, and I am pretty sure that my Belgian friends would prefer that it remains that way.

[Bronty]

I haven't done the math but it strike anybody else that the US record is probably about the BP on the euro record ?

 

 

[Bronty]

Here is a random question and perhaps the answer is unknowable, but could the strong price for the Tintin be related to not just to the steady growth in the OA market (both US and Euro), but directly to the just completed Heritage auction? Those surprisingly strong results had some people speculating, Gene included, that there might now be a significantly higher expectation for prices asked and prices paid for anything of quality. Just wonder if this result is an early domino falling in some sort of tipping point scenario, or just another outlier.

 

I'm hoping for the latter scenario.

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

I would say different markets except that it might make US buyers braver.

[Bronty]

[...]

I think the typical collector, whether they are American or European, who buys high-end Tintin art is simply wealthier than the typical buyer of American comic art.

 

From what I've learned from talking with Belgian Tintin collectors, I think this hits the nail. A couple of years ago, I purchased a single Tintin panel for a price that would translate to $300,000+ for the full page and that was by no means an outlier. The market for Herge art is a _completely_ different universe and culture compared to the US market for OA, and I am pretty sure that my Belgian friends would prefer that it remains that way.

 

And yet apparently an American won the auction. Very surprising. An American of Belgian descent perhaps?

 

Or perhaps Lucas was interested in an example for his museum?

[westform]

Ok, I think I am understanding you better. I can see that the high end Euro most likely is not the same buyer for high end U.S superhero art, with some exceptions. But, if you take superhero off of that they might be. They might look for a quality Raymond Flash Gordon or a Barks Duck. But, then again, they might look for a Moebius Silver surfer. I don't know, it's hard to make hard and fast statements about individuals in the market and their propensity to cross over. Partly because the higher end the collector sometimes the lower the profile they like to keep.

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding you

 

Not to be flippant, but, yes, you are misunderstanding me. I never said that there aren't plenty of Europeans buying American OA (of course that's not the case). All I'm saying is that the people buying Tintin and other high-end European OA for 6 and 7-figures, regardless of their national origin, are generally not the same people buying American superhero OA at the highest level. They attract different kinds of buyers and are thus disparate markets. It's kind of like comparing Formula 1 to Indycar - there are huge similarities on the surface and there are some crossover fans, but, generally speaking, they attract different types of adherents.* That's it, nothing else - anything else people are attributing to me is being incorrectly inferred on their part. Given that we can account for almost all of the high-end American OA sales of recent years (pretty much anything that has sold for more than $160K with the exception of the ASM #121 cover), that really shouldn't be a controversial statement.

 

And, yes, I do agree with you that the "legitimacy" of European OA has been a factor in these kinds of prices for Tintin and the bluest of blue chip European art - which is why I suspect that it has attracted a tonier set of collectors than American OA has to date. Whether American OA can achieve the same level of legitimacy remains open to debate. To date, it's really been the Clowes, Crumbs, Panters, Wares, etc. that have gotten any sheen of legitimacy, not the mainstream Marvel and DC artists. Who knows, maybe mainstream American OA will get there. Or, maybe it's just a cultural thing and it will struggle to catch on here to the extent it has in Europe, like professional soccer.

 

 

 

 

 

* And, yes, I do know about big European collectors like Bernard and others who collect both, but until I see guys like him competing for the likes of Hulk #180 pages @ $657K, I think the general point holds - let's not pick nits here.