Why is Hawkman 4 so hard to find in decent condition?

[General Zod]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Is this a joke meme? I see you and a couple others repeating it in years old threads as I've been backtracking.

[234wallst]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

[paperheart]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

[TeddieMercede]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Is this a joke meme? I see you and a couple others repeating it in years old threads as I've been backtracking.

 

Not really - it's no secret that the amount of Marvel SA collectors is incredibly huge in comparison to SA DC ones. Once the speculators jump ship onto the next book and only the collectors are left to pick up the rubble you really see where prices are for a lot of these SA DC books.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Exactly, there are plenty in the census now. By that I'd be after a 9.2, typically a dozen or so left in that grade.

[Mishmashman]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Not challenging you here but what are you basing that on? Instead of talking about or assuming in abstract that high grade Hawkman 4s are now "rolling into Sarasota" wouldn't it be better to compare census numbers of Hawkman 4 against another similar book? Like Hawkman 1?

 

I'm not the keenest of comic historians but just looking at GPA, it looks like Hawkman 1 has commanded a decent premium in high grade for several years now. In 9.2 and above we are looking at a $1500 to $5000 book and the price has held steady for the last ten years or so now. So it's probably safe to assume collectors/dealers have been subbing high grade copies since around that time. Yet we find still at present only one 9.8, four 9.6s, and 10 9.4s. In fact between 2002 and 2014, GPA recorded fewer than a dozen sales. Whether one considers Hawkman 1 scarce in grade might be a matter of debate. What's not up for debate is whether the book in grade is common--it's not. Add to that that Hawkman 1 was probably more collectible than 4, and I'd wager that while we might witness several more high grade copies added to the ranks, this expectation that the census numbers will swell in 9.2+ is probably unrealistic.

 

Wasn't DC 60s paper also of poorer quality compared to Marvel 60s paper, making high grade DCs harder to find in grade than Marvels from the same period?

[paperheart]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Not challenging you here but what are you basing that on? Instead of talking about or assuming in abstract that high grade Hawkman 4s are now "rolling into Sarasota" wouldn't it be better to compare census numbers of Hawkman 4 against another similar book? Like Hawkman 1?

 

I'm not the keenest of comic historians but just looking at GPA, it looks like Hawkman 1 has commanded a decent premium in high grade for several years now. In 9.2 and above we are looking at a $1500 to $5000 book and the price has held steady for the last ten years or so now. So it's probably safe to assume collectors/dealers have been subbing high grade copies since around that time. Yet we find still at present only one 9.8, four 9.6s, and 10 9.4s. In fact between 2002 and 2014, GPA recorded fewer than a dozen sales. Whether one considers Hawkman 1 scarce in grade might be a matter of debate. What's not up for debate is whether the book in grade is common--it's not. Add to that that Hawkman 1 was probably more collectible than 4, and I'd wager that while we might witness several more high grade copies added to the ranks, this expectation that the census numbers will swell in 9.2+ is probably unrealistic.

 

Wasn't DC 60s paper also of poorer quality compared to Marvel 60s paper, making high grade DCs harder to find in grade than Marvels from the same period?

 

there have been 440 Hawkman #1's subbed and there are 48 copies at 9.0 or higher. there have been 156 Hawkman #4's subbed and there are 50 copies at 9.0 or higher. 1/3 of all copies subbed 9.0 or better does not seem remotely scare in grade.

[MusterMark]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Not challenging you here but what are you basing that on? Instead of talking about or assuming in abstract that high grade Hawkman 4s are now "rolling into Sarasota" wouldn't it be better to compare census numbers of Hawkman 4 against another similar book? Like Hawkman 1?

 

I'm not the keenest of comic historians but just looking at GPA, it looks like Hawkman 1 has commanded a decent premium in high grade for several years now. In 9.2 and above we are looking at a $1500 to $5000 book and the price has held steady for the last ten years or so now. So it's probably safe to assume collectors/dealers have been subbing high grade copies since around that time. Yet we find still at present only one 9.8, four 9.6s, and 10 9.4s. In fact between 2002 and 2014, GPA recorded fewer than a dozen sales. Whether one considers Hawkman 1 scarce in grade might be a matter of debate. What's not up for debate is whether the book in grade is common--it's not. Add to that that Hawkman 1 was probably more collectible than 4, and I'd wager that while we might witness several more high grade copies added to the ranks, this expectation that the census numbers will swell in 9.2+ is probably unrealistic.

 

Wasn't DC 60s paper also of poorer quality compared to Marvel 60s paper, making high grade DCs harder to find in grade than Marvels from the same period?

 

Thanks for being a voice of reason, as opposed to some comments steeped in emotion, negativity and bias. The discussion was interesting until that started happening.

[Mishmashman]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Not challenging you here but what are you basing that on? Instead of talking about or assuming in abstract that high grade Hawkman 4s are now "rolling into Sarasota" wouldn't it be better to compare census numbers of Hawkman 4 against another similar book? Like Hawkman 1?

 

I'm not the keenest of comic historians but just looking at GPA, it looks like Hawkman 1 has commanded a decent premium in high grade for several years now. In 9.2 and above we are looking at a $1500 to $5000 book and the price has held steady for the last ten years or so now. So it's probably safe to assume collectors/dealers have been subbing high grade copies since around that time. Yet we find still at present only one 9.8, four 9.6s, and 10 9.4s. In fact between 2002 and 2014, GPA recorded fewer than a dozen sales. Whether one considers Hawkman 1 scarce in grade might be a matter of debate. What's not up for debate is whether the book in grade is common--it's not. Add to that that Hawkman 1 was probably more collectible than 4, and I'd wager that while we might witness several more high grade copies added to the ranks, this expectation that the census numbers will swell in 9.2+ is probably unrealistic.

 

Wasn't DC 60s paper also of poorer quality compared to Marvel 60s paper, making high grade DCs harder to find in grade than Marvels from the same period?

 

there have been 440 Hawkman #1's subbed and there are 48 copies at 9.0 or higher. there have been 156 Hawkman #4's subbed and there are 50 copies at 9.0 or higher. 1/3 of all copies subbed 9.0 or better does not seem remotely scare in grade.

 

Yes, but most of those subbed were still of lower grade. Do you have information not available to everyone else that we should expect issue four, which came out only three months after issue one, to somehow be in high grade in greater abundance than issue one? Was there a warehouse find of issue four? Perhaps what we are witnessing is that until recently *lower* grade copies of Hawkman 4 were not worth subbing until recently?

[The-Collector]

1 in 9.8

6 in 9.6

9 in 9.4

15 in 9.2

19 in 9.0

 

for a DC this is an overabundance in high grade.

 

You can't really use the census to judge scarcity of a book. This book was way off the radar and therefore nobody cared to get it graded. That will change if the current price trend continues.

 

it's already not scarce in high grade. the #4's are probably rolling into Sarasota by the truckload now.

 

Not challenging you here but what are you basing that on? Instead of talking about or assuming in abstract that high grade Hawkman 4s are now "rolling into Sarasota" wouldn't it be better to compare census numbers of Hawkman 4 against another similar book? Like Hawkman 1?

 

I'm not the keenest of comic historians but just looking at GPA, it looks like Hawkman 1 has commanded a decent premium in high grade for several years now. In 9.2 and above we are looking at a $1500 to $5000 book and the price has held steady for the last ten years or so now. So it's probably safe to assume collectors/dealers have been subbing high grade copies since around that time. Yet we find still at present only one 9.8, four 9.6s, and 10 9.4s. In fact between 2002 and 2014, GPA recorded fewer than a dozen sales. Whether one considers Hawkman 1 scarce in grade might be a matter of debate. What's not up for debate is whether the book in grade is common--it's not. Add to that that Hawkman 1 was probably more collectible than 4, and I'd wager that while we might witness several more high grade copies added to the ranks, this expectation that the census numbers will swell in 9.2+ is probably unrealistic.

 

Wasn't DC 60s paper also of poorer quality compared to Marvel 60s paper, making high grade DCs harder to find in grade than Marvels from the same period?

 

I think it is hype as well as the dollar figure which motivates people to sub. Take for instance IH 180 there are only 16ish copies in 9.8 last time I checked but this has been a very expensive book for just as long as IH 181 has been (in fact it used to command higher prices than IH 181 ). So many valuable books don't have significant census numbers not because they are cheap or common but because there isn't an industry focus on that title.

 

In general I don't think you infer much from the census either way. It is a very poor analytic tool, that even if it wasn't heavily skewed by continual resubmissions seems to correlate erratically with price and demand.

 

 

[General Zod]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Is this a joke meme? I see you and a couple others repeating it in years old threads as I've been backtracking.

 

Not really - it's no secret that the amount of Marvel SA collectors is incredibly huge in comparison to SA DC ones. Once the speculators jump ship onto the next book and only the collectors are left to pick up the rubble you really see where prices are for a lot of these SA DC books.

 

You've gotta be joking. There are a lot of DC fans out there. Batman, Supes, Wonder Woman, etc. Superfriends was a popular TV show in its time and so on.

[Bronx]

I agree there are tons of Marvel fans out there. I am one of them. As a kid I was exclusive to Marvel and could vocalize twenty reasons why DC sucked. However, as an adult and fan of comic books and great storytelling I no longer have an issue with DC or any company that produces great stories. I despised the Image of the 90s but I can appreciate the rich storytelling Image of today.

 

I don't love companies. Companies change. Their direction changes based on leadership, money decisions, culture... I will read and collect any quality comic that I like. My current collection is mainly Silver Age and is 90 percent Marvel but now I'm starting to collect a little more DC. The characters are great , the covers are cool and I'm learning more about the history of DC in the fifties and sixties. I started this thread to get some real opinions from veteran collectors on why higher grade DCs are harder to find than comparable Marvels. Hawkman 4 was just an example that I happen to be looking to upgrade. I love the cover art and it's a key book but Adventure 283 is also high on my list. Try finding that in high grade affordably.

 

I'm writing too much now but I am thrilled with the responses to this thread. As a noob I have seen some wacky threads and some crazy word brawls but the responses here have been excellent. I used to think I was knowledgable about comics but the folks in these forums are ridiculous in what they know. Thanks for the replies and keep the good info coming.

[Hepcat]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Yes, but demand is the factor that's subject to the vicissitudes of changing fashion! Demand can and does change dramatically with the fad of the day. Demand is therefore not something on which one can rely. It's supply that remains relatively constant. One should thus be wary of paying for high demand comics because demand can evaporate.

 

 

...it's no secret that the amount of Marvel SA collectors is incredibly huge in comparison to SA DC ones. Once the speculators jump ship onto the next book and only the collectors are left to pick up the rubble you really see where prices are for a lot of these SA DC books.

 

Precisely. That's always been my concern. What's going to happen to the prices of all the "keys" when the speculators go away and only the collectors are left? What happened to the market and price of baseball cards ten to fifteen years ago when the focus of the speculators changed?

 

 

[Mishmashman]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Is this a joke meme? I see you and a couple others repeating it in years old threads as I've been backtracking.

 

Not really - it's no secret that the amount of Marvel SA collectors is incredibly huge in comparison to SA DC ones. Once the speculators jump ship onto the next book and only the collectors are left to pick up the rubble you really see where prices are for a lot of these SA DC books.

 

What I see with a lot of longtime collectors and dealers is that they seem to think that the "key"-ness of a book is a static concept. If they haven't been considered keys or highly sought after until recently, they're not "real" keys. At best, they're relegated to "minor" key or "semi-minor" key status; at worst, they're considered speculator- or hype-driven books. I'm a collector who believes that the "key"-ness of a book is an evolving thing whose significance is determined by things like merchandising and movies. What so many long-time collectors appear to resent is the impact merchandising and movies have had on this hobby. I don't understand why that would be.

 

Zatanna is being more widely portrayed now in the New 52 and in video games and toys. In my opinion, Zatanna is here to stay and Hawkman 4 should be considered part of the Silver Age DC canon.

[Hepcat]

What I see with a lot of longtime collectors and dealers is that they seem to think that the "key"-ness of a book is a static concept. If they haven't been considered keys or highly sought after until recently, they're not "real" keys. At best, they're relegated to "minor" key or "semi-minor" key status; at worst, they're considered speculator- or hype-driven books. I'm a collector who believes that the "key"-ness of a book is an evolving thing whose significance is determined by things like merchandising and movies. What so many long-time collectors appear to resent is the impact merchandising and movies have had on this hobby. I don't understand why that would be.

 

To a certain extent you're correct. Many of us long time collectors do indeed resent the impact that movies and TV shows specifically have on "keys". The reason for that is precisely because we are long time collectors. We were into these characters and comics long before the movies burst on to the scene. It's not that we're opposed to change, but the changes we expect in the concept of keys are slow evolutionary ones in response to ongoing storylines as they occur in the comics. It's the quantum leaps in response to movies and even rumours of movies such as with respect to Hawkman 4 that we find troubling and disquieting. It's the old "Here today gone tomorrow" scenario we fear.

 

[General Zod]

I agree there are tons of Marvel fans out there. I am one of them. As a kid I was exclusive to Marvel and could vocalize twenty reasons why DC sucked. However, as an adult and fan of comic books and great storytelling I no longer have an issue with DC or any company that produces great stories. I despised the Image of the 90s but I can appreciate the rich storytelling Image of today.

 

I don't love companies. Companies change. Their direction changes based on leadership, money decisions, culture... I will read and collect any quality comic that I like. My current collection is mainly Silver Age and is 90 percent Marvel but now I'm starting to collect a little more DC. The characters are great , the covers are cool and I'm learning more about the history of DC in the fifties and sixties. I started this thread to get some real opinions from veteran collectors on why higher grade DCs are harder to find than comparable Marvels. Hawkman 4 was just an example that I happen to be looking to upgrade. I love the cover art and it's a key book but Adventure 283 is also high on my list. Try finding that in high grade affordably.

 

I'm writing too much now but I am thrilled with the responses to this thread. As a noob I have seen some wacky threads and some crazy word brawls but the responses here have been excellent. I used to think I was knowledgable about comics but the folks in these forums are ridiculous in what they know. Thanks for the replies and keep the good info coming.

 

I agree, except for the perception that there are still a lot of non-DC fans out there. I too, was a Marvel fanboy growing up but it didn't take me long to drop that notion because of independents teaching me there are quality books to be had regardless of company. Today I don't even regularly buy from either two (it's actually IDW where I go to get my G.I. Joe, A Real American Hero fix!) and I see a lot of people not strictly collecting from one company. I think that era was over by the 90s as I had a lot of friends who bought whatever was cool. And I still don't believe for one minute that collectors are heavily skewed towards Marvel today. Not at "98% vs. DC." Especially with better offerings and creators in the smaller companies.

 

Btw good luck on Adventure #283. I've managed to land 3 decent copies and yes, it's not easy to find in HG, period. Not quite as hard as something like Superboy #68 but it's somewhat up there. I wanted the 8.5 on Comiclink but I am paying off two other books. Had to prioritize because they're scarce in HG (black cover) and I wanted them before they're gone. I think I know where another nice HG copy of #283 is, and it's a boardie's but I can't remember where my bookmark for his website is.

[Flatliner1313]

With Hawkman #4 blowing up so hard, some people may want to look for some other important Zatanna books, while avoiding the main Key.

 

My second choice would be Justice League of America #51.

It's her sixth appearance overall, and her first FEATURED appearance on a cover.

She appears as a head on Atom #19, and then kind of laying down in the background of Green Lantern #42. But in this issue, she's up front and the shared focal point of the cover (with Batman).

 

 

Moreover, it's also the issue where Zatanna is reunited with her dad, Zatara.

[FineCollector]

With Hawkman #4 blowing up so hard, some people may want to look for some other important Zatanna books, while avoiding the main Key.

 

My second choice would be Justice League of America #51.

It's her sixth appearance overall, and her first FEATURED appearance on a cover.

She appears as a head on Atom #19, and then kind of laying down in the background of Green Lantern #42. But in this issue, she's up front and the shared focal point of the cover (with Batman).

 

Moreover, it's also the issue where Zatanna is reunited with her dad, Zatara.

 

If only people bought comics that way...

[paperheart]

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

I agree, seems like the herd mentality is making this book a bigger deal than it really is.

 

Keep in mind though that it's been the herd mentality that has in recent years caused any of these "keys" to outstrip the "value" of their counterparts by miles. Objectively this phenomenon makes no more sense to a disinterested observer than any other wave of speculation that's pushed up the prices of everything from tulip bulbs to high tech stocks in the past.

 

No way this book is worth near that much.

 

of course not, it's a DC for one thing

 

Meaning that there are only 5-10% the copies out there relative to Marvels of a similar age.

 

 

 

 

and only 2% of the collectors who give a hoot relative to Marvels of a similar age

 

Is this a joke meme? I see you and a couple others repeating it in years old threads as I've been backtracking.

 

Not really - it's no secret that the amount of Marvel SA collectors is incredibly huge in comparison to SA DC ones. Once the speculators jump ship onto the next book and only the collectors are left to pick up the rubble you really see where prices are for a lot of these SA DC books.

 

What I see with a lot of longtime collectors and dealers is that they seem to think that the "key"-ness of a book is a static concept. If they haven't been considered keys or highly sought after until recently, they're not "real" keys. At best, they're relegated to "minor" key or "semi-minor" key status; at worst, they're considered speculator- or hype-driven books. I'm a collector who believes that the "key"-ness of a book is an evolving thing whose significance is determined by things like merchandising and movies. What so many long-time collectors appear to resent is the impact merchandising and movies have had on this hobby. I don't understand why that would be.

 

Zatanna is being more widely portrayed now in the New 52 and in video games and toys. In my opinion, Zatanna is here to stay and Hawkman 4 should be considered part of the Silver Age DC canon.

 

as i'm blowing mine out the door (thumbs u

[Mijael.Levy]

With Hawkman #4 blowing up so hard, some people may want to look for some other important Zatanna books, while avoiding the main Key.

 

My second choice would be Justice League of America #51.

It's her sixth appearance overall, and her first FEATURED appearance on a cover.

She appears as a head on Atom #19, and then kind of laying down in the background of Green Lantern #42. But in this issue, she's up front and the shared focal point of the cover (with Batman).

 

 

Moreover, it's also the issue where Zatanna is reunited with her dad, Zatara.

 

I love this cover but i think Atom 19 is more important because its the 2nd appearence right?