Comiclink Summer Featured Auction

[J.Sid]

… so at this point we turn our attention to Miller's status as one of the elite writers of the medium.

 

Gibbons' work with Alan Moore is far different in value than anything else he drew, and Janson's collaborations (whichever form it took) with Miller are worth more than anything else they ever drew. (I think this applies to Mazzucchelli, too)

[heartened]

… so at this point we turn our attention to Miller's status as one of the elite writers of the medium.

 

Gibbons' work with Alan Moore is far different in value than anything else he drew, and Janson's collaborations (whichever form it took) with Miller are worth more than anything else they ever drew. (I think this applies to Mazzucchelli, too)

 

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

[J.Sid]

… so at this point we turn our attention to Miller's status as one of the elite writers of the medium.

 

Gibbons' work with Alan Moore is far different in value than anything else he drew, and Janson's collaborations (whichever form it took) with Miller are worth more than anything else they ever drew. (I think this applies to Mazzucchelli, too)

 

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

 

Really?

 

I disagree. There are zillions of pages from forgettable stories which sell for a lot of money because of the artist who drew them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J.Sid]

(the number of people who collect John Byrne pages is a lot more than the number of people who collect Chris Claremont pages)

[Pete Marino]

(the number of people who collect John Byrne pages is a lot more than the number of people who collect Chris Claremont pages)

 

Agreed, but if JB did the outback saga instead of the Dark Phoenix Saga, prices would be much different for his art as well.

[Nexus]

… so at this point we turn our attention to Miller's status as one of the elite writers of the medium.

 

Gibbons' work with Alan Moore is far different in value than anything else he drew, and Janson's collaborations (whichever form it took) with Miller are worth more than anything else they ever drew. (I think this applies to Mazzucchelli, too)

 

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

 

Really?

 

I disagree. There are zillions of pages from forgettable stories which sell for a lot of money because of the artist who drew them.

 

Yes, this hobby has historically been artist-centric. It still is, save for a few exceptions. But there's also no question that the writer's contributions carry more and more weight these days, with most comic art being recognized as a collaborative work. Good writing definitely gives OA more substance, imo.

 

Regarding the DD #181 page, the value comes primarily from the story. While it would of course be more ideal if Miller's pencils were on the board, it's still DD #181 in the end. I think the value on this page might be held back because of the initial shock of this revelation...but over time, collectors will get over it and remember that what's most important is that this is one of the all-time great issues in Marvel history.

 

[heartened]

… so at this point we turn our attention to Miller's status as one of the elite writers of the medium.

 

Gibbons' work with Alan Moore is far different in value than anything else he drew, and Janson's collaborations (whichever form it took) with Miller are worth more than anything else they ever drew. (I think this applies to Mazzucchelli, too)

 

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

 

Really?

 

I disagree. There are zillions of pages from forgettable stories which sell for a lot of money because of the artist who drew them.

 

Yes, this hobby has historically been artist-centric. It still is, save for a few exceptions. But there's also no question that the writer's contributions carry more and more weight these days, with most comic art being recognized as a collaborative work. Good writing definitely gives OA more substance, imo.

 

Regarding the DD #181 page, the value comes primarily from the story. While it would of course be more ideal if Miller's pencils were on the board, it's still DD #181 in the end. I think the value on this page might be held back because of the initial shock of this revelation...but over time, collectors will get over it and remember that what's most important is that this is one of the all-time great issues in Marvel history.

 

This. Great stores are what rise to the top. You just got the same advice from me, Felix and Scott Williams. Do with it what you will

 

[heartened]

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

 

So what's the Killing Joke's excuse then? Alan Moore still considers it an 'abortion' and Bolland wasn't completely satisfied with the end result either (storywise). I personally don't care for the story either and never got all the high-praise "hubbub" surrounding it, and still don't after having re-read it recently (Moore only wrote it as a favor to Bolland anyway, as Moore was on his way out of DC. "By the time Alan had finished Watchmen he had fallen out with DC to a certain extent ... n the end, he only continued to do Killing Joke as a favour to me." - Bolland). Definitely not one of Moore's highlights in his repetoire of misanthropic, misogynist fiction, but I'll be damned if the book isn't some of Bolland's best artwork ever! And IMO, that's the only thing going for it for me, personally. I could care less for Moore's contribution to the artwork.

 

Agree, that's an interesting example. But, I think that most readers like the work a whole lot more than Moore apparently did. It is still considered one of the best Batman stories and an important Joker origin issue and Oracle origin issue. The art is phenomenal and arguably better than the story, but it's the story that has elevated it above and beyond. It also doesn't hurt that it's a major character (Batman) and the book heavily influenced the first Batman movie, the more recent Heath Ledger Joker look, etc. etc. To say that KJ is expensive/prized merely for the art is a stretch, however pretty that art is (and I own two pages, so you know I'm a fan!).

 

[heartened]

Of course it does. It has almost always been about the story. Then we appreciate the art. The other way around happens (Wrightson, Kirby, Steranko, Frazetta, Stevens, Bolland, etc.), but not as much.

 

So what's the Killing Joke's excuse then? Alan Moore still considers it an 'abortion' and Bolland wasn't completely satisfied with the end result either (storywise). I personally don't care for the story either and never got all the high-praise "hubbub" surrounding it, and still don't after having re-read it recently (Moore only wrote it as a favor to Bolland anyway, as Moore was on his way out of DC. "By the time Alan had finished Watchmen he had fallen out with DC to a certain extent ... n the end, he only continued to do Killing Joke as a favour to me." - Bolland). Definitely not one of Moore's highlights in his repetoire of misanthropic, misogynist fiction, but I'll be damned if the book isn't some of Bolland's best artwork ever! And IMO, that's the only thing going for it for me, personally. I could care less for Moore's contribution to the artwork.

 

Agree, that's an interesting example. But, I think that most readers like the work a whole lot more than Moore apparently did. It is still considered one of the best Batman stories and an important Joker origin issue and Oracle origin issue. The art is phenomenal and arguably better than the story, but it's the story that has elevated it above and beyond. It also doesn't hurt that it's a major character (Batman) and the book heavily influenced the first Batman movie, the more recent Heath Ledger Joker look, etc. etc. To say that KJ is expensive/prized merely for the art is a stretch, however pretty that art is (and I own two pages, so you know I'm a fan!).

 

I think the story is brilliant. The whole One Bad Day concept, Batman and Joker very similar but responded to tragedy in two different ways, the final joke, the Barbara Gordon sub-plot, the Origin aspects and flashbacks, the first Red Hood storyline since Detective 168. We can't diminish this story just because it's author felt it wasn't "deep" enough for his taste. Moore detested superhero stories, period. And in his mind it never elevated past that, and he thus regretted it. But, the fans ate it up and frankly I think we're right on this one.

 

 

Sorry, I was trying to edit my post but ended up quoting and modifying it by accident.

[Nexus]

 

For example, why should any of the KJ flashback origin pages be considered less desirable/valuable than a page featuring Batman punching Joker through a glass mirror? I don't know, to me those not-so-coveted pages contain more story and plot than an action page if story were truly as important.

 

It seems to me you've answered your own question:

 

And going back to the DD #181 page currently on CLink, it has no appeal to me aesthetically or content-wise despite being such an important book in DD's legacy. Why? No Daredevil (in costume) and too much dialogue/talking heads! Miller pencils or not. Ha!

 

 

[Nexus]

Yes, if OA collecting was just about the writing, then the story pages should theoretically have the most value. But, obviously, it's not just about the writing. On the other hand, it's no longer always just about the art, either.

 

In this case, KJ was not the only Batman story Bolland ever drew. But it's by far the most sought after of all his Batman art. And we all know why.

 

By the same token, if Moore had worked with a lesser artist, KJ wouldn't have the same status, either.

 

KJ may not be Moore's best writing. The story is problematic and certainly controversial. I won't argue any of that. But, for better or for worse, it remains one of the most important Batman/Joker stories to date (if not the most important), and is key to our modern perception of both characters. Along with everything else, that's why collectors want pages.

 

 

[heartened]

I'll add two other points:

 

First, the flashback pages were Bolland's favorites. They were the last pages he kept in his collection - all gone now.

 

Second, in response to why some pages are worth more based on the art alone, I think yes you answered your own question (we like larger panels, as they sometimes are more dynamic and memorable), but also Moore was a genius in graphic storytelling. The art "was" the story. Remember that Moore basically tells an artist exactly what and how to draw it. There is virtually nothing creative left to the artist. KJ may be an exception because Bolland had the initial idea, but I'm pretty sure Moore spelled out everything like he always does. That's his trademark move.

 

[delekkerste]

That's why it's a discussion board Not a problem. And, of course, I am only talking about the Miller DD run here. I agree that this is not something you can extrapolate across the board - the Kirby comment (where layouts, inker, etc. heavily changed the final result) - is of course accurate. But, as for the Miller DD run, I agree with Scott Williams that the quality never suffered, and in many instances IMPROVED as the run progressed - and of course the best story arc is in the pages/issues that he did the layouts. The art didn't make this run, guys, as much as the story did. Time to acknowledge that. Again, speaking about THIS run in particular. Please don't extrapolate.

 

Add me to the list that agrees with you, Scott and Felix (and not just because I own a #181 page - I also apparently own 2 DD pages with full Miller pencils and 1 with Miller layouts on the same sheet as well). I totally agree that Miller as writer adds tremendous value and that's something you can't extrapolate across the board. Aside from the Wolverine Limited Series, is there anything drawn by Miller that he drew that's as coveted as the stuff that he wrote? With Miller, it's really the totality of his storytelling ability that is prized by collectors and the cognoscenti. If he had never been a writer and had just drawn other peoples' stories, I doubt the art would be even remotely as coveted as it is today - his pre-Ronin art (i.e., the Marvel era) is nowhere near as distinctive as, say, a Sienkiewicz, nor as pretty as, say, a Byrne. Before he did Ronin and DKR, etc., his "prettiest" work was probably the Wolvie LS, and that was due largely to Rubinstein's inks (I believe Miller did rough layouts at best on this series as well - at least that is what I recall Rubinstein saying, and I believe it given how different it looks from his other Marvel work).

 

Regarding his DD run, let's break it down:

 

#158-#167 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by McKenzie, Semi-memorable at best.

#168-#172 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#173-#180 - layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#181 - Separate layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. EXTREMELY memorable, Greatest of All-Time candidate.

#182-#184 - layouts by Miller, Scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#185-#190 - Separate layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. Semi-memorable.

#191 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by Miller. Memorable.

 

At the end of the day, I'm taking any of the VERY and EXTREMELY memorable pages over the semi-memorable ones any day of the week. Who in their right mind would value a DD #167 page over a #181 page even if the former is full Miller pencils? It's just not that memorable an issue, and, whether it's all-Klaus or not, the #181 art just looks nicer anyway!

 

If this is mind-blowing to some, here's an easy way to rationalize it - #181 gets a 100% premium for being from one of, if not the greatest Marvel keys of all-time. Then take a 50% discount for it being separate Miller layouts (if that's indeed the case). Voila! Back to being normally valued. Now, the #185-#190 separate layout pages - to me, that's another story, because the storyline is not as memorable. There, I'd take a discount to other Miller DD pages because there is no premium for the content.

[jjonahjameson1]

That's why it's a discussion board Not a problem. And, of course, I am only talking about the Miller DD run here. I agree that this is not something you can extrapolate across the board - the Kirby comment (where layouts, inker, etc. heavily changed the final result) - is of course accurate. But, as for the Miller DD run, I agree with Scott Williams that the quality never suffered, and in many instances IMPROVED as the run progressed - and of course the best story arc is in the pages/issues that he did the layouts. The art didn't make this run, guys, as much as the story did. Time to acknowledge that. Again, speaking about THIS run in particular. Please don't extrapolate.

 

Add me to the list that agrees with you, Scott and Felix (and not just because I own a #181 page - I also apparently own 2 DD pages with full Miller pencils and 1 with Miller layouts on the same sheet as well). I totally agree that Miller as writer adds tremendous value and that's something you can't extrapolate across the board. Aside from the Wolverine Limited Series, is there anything drawn by Miller that he drew that's as coveted as the stuff that he wrote? With Miller, it's really the totality of his storytelling ability that is prized by collectors and the cognoscenti. If he had never been a writer and had just drawn other peoples' stories, I doubt the art would be even remotely as coveted as it is today - his pre-Ronin art (i.e., the Marvel era) is nowhere near as distinctive as, say, a Sienkiewicz, nor as pretty as, say, a Byrne. Before he did Ronin and DKR, etc., his "prettiest" work was probably the Wolvie LS, and that was due largely to Rubinstein's inks (I believe Miller did rough layouts at best on this series as well - at least that is what I recall Rubinstein saying, and I believe it given how different it looks from his other Marvel work).

 

Regarding his DD run, let's break it down:

 

#158-#167 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by McKenzie, Semi-memorable at best.

#168-#172 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#173-#180 - layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#181 - Separate layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. EXTREMELY memorable, Greatest of All-Time candidate.

#182-#184 - layouts by Miller, Scripting by Miller. VERY memorable.

#185-#190 - Separate layouts by Miller, scripting by Miller. Semi-memorable.

#191 - full pencils by Miller, scripting by Miller. Memorable.

 

At the end of the day, I'm taking any of the VERY and EXTREMELY memorable pages over the semi-memorable ones any day of the week. Who in their right mind would value a DD #167 page over a #181 page even if the former is full Miller pencils? It's just not that memorable an issue, and, whether it's all-Klaus or not, the #181 art just looks nicer anyway!

 

If this is mind-blowing to some, here's an easy way to rationalize it - #181 gets a 100% premium for being from one of, if not the greatest Marvel keys of all-time. Then take a 50% discount for it being separate Miller layouts (if that's indeed the case). Voila! Back to being normally valued. Now, the #185-#190 separate layout pages - to me, that's another story, because the storyline is not as memorable. There, I'd take a discount to other Miller DD pages because there is no premium for the content.

 

Ugh. I think my head's gonna explode.

 

There's lots of other great art in this Clink auction to discuss.

[delekkerste]

Also, is there any doubt that the Bullseye vs. Elektra pages from #181 wouldn't be the most highly coveted interiors from the run? There are some Daredevil vs. Elektra pages from #179 that are great as well, but, as good as those are, they're not nearly as memorable as the #181 sequence.

[AKA Rick]

I think a lot of any art be it blueline inked over anything, with or without stats, damaged or not in the aftermarket is the fact that these pieces are indeed "one of a kind" so it boils down to... "like it or don't like it, learn to love it (or walk away) because it's the only game in town" - - so, some collectors will look past any variances that deviate from the norm knowing that there's simply not another "better" piece that exists, since it's not like these piece are prelims, production reproductions or an inferior part of the process.

 

There are art collectors who collect by artists, who the issues with Daredevil #181 are important to. If that one person liked Daredevil but loved Frank Miller, than this probably isn't for them.

 

Then there's art collectors who collect for other reasons be it characters, title, issue, story, etc., that the foreground is the fact that the piece is an original from Daredevil #181 and the background to that is the fact that it's by Frank Miller and in part really by Klaus Jason when it comes to pencil and/or ink touching the paper.

 

It's still valued and will retain value, as there's far more collectors in the marketplace now and probably in the future who will see this as a key piece, but I'd of course think, if seen as an investment piece today, with Miller being as popular as he is and has been, it's potentially far from being a bargain to think about acquiring to resell for profits, so would always approach art buying with the attitude of only paying what you're willing to pay and can afford, in the event it becomes worth less (not worthless, but worth less, meaning decrease in value) you won't have many regrets.

[Sharkey]

Ugh. I think my head's gonna explode.

 

There's lots of other great art in this Clink auction to discuss.

 

Well I can make a comment about one of those other pieces of art: The Jack Kirby FF 40 page.

 

For years I was on a quest to put that whole battle sequence together. But things in life have come up that are a bigger priority, and I have been selling off my FF 40 pages. The page in the ComicLink auction is one of mine.

 

The reason I'm mentioning this is that I've had a few people send me a link to the page saying, "hey did you see this? I know you're putting that issue together" or something to that effect.

 

So I want to make sure people know that the page in the Clink auction is mine and I am indeed selling it. So no need for people to hold back bidding because they think I'm going hard after it. Au contraire. Bid away!

 

I hope the next owner enjoys it as much as I have. It's a stunning page.

 

Link to Page

 

-Steve

 

[Bronty]

Good luck Steve (thumbs u

[jjonahjameson1]

Ugh. I think my head's gonna explode.

 

There's lots of other great art in this Clink auction to discuss.

 

Well I can make a comment about one of those other pieces of art: The Jack Kirby FF 40 page.

 

For years I was on a quest to put that whole battle sequence together. But things in life have come up that are a bigger priority, and I have been selling off my FF 40 pages. The page in the ComicLink auction is one of mine.

 

The reason I'm mentioning this is that I've had a few people send me a link to the page saying, "hey did you see this? I know you're putting that issue together" or something to that effect.

 

So I want to make sure people know that the page in the Clink auction is mine and I am indeed selling it. So no need for people to hold back bidding because they think I'm going hard after it. Au contraire. Bid away!

 

I hope the next owner enjoys it as much as I have. It's a stunning page.

 

Link to Page

 

-Steve

 

hey, good luck on the sale, Steve!

[Sharkey]

Ugh. I think my head's gonna explode.

 

There's lots of other great art in this Clink auction to discuss.

 

Well I can make a comment about one of those other pieces of art: The Jack Kirby FF 40 page.

 

For years I was on a quest to put that whole battle sequence together. But things in life have come up that are a bigger priority, and I have been selling off my FF 40 pages. The page in the ComicLink auction is one of mine.

 

The reason I'm mentioning this is that I've had a few people send me a link to the page saying, "hey did you see this? I know you're putting that issue together" or something to that effect.

 

So I want to make sure people know that the page in the Clink auction is mine and I am indeed selling it. So no need for people to hold back bidding because they think I'm going hard after it. Au contraire. Bid away!

 

I hope the next owner enjoys it as much as I have. It's a stunning page.

 

Link to Page

 

-Steve

 

hey, good luck on the sale, Steve!

 

Thanks! No doubt that as far as Kirby pages featuring the Thing in a knock-down drag-out brawl with Doc Doom, this is about as good as it gets. I'm gonna miss it, but it's been a lovely thing to behold for a number of years.