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[Bird]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

The entire Daredevil #181 issue was not pencilled by Miller on the board?

 

 

From an earlier discussion somewhere else, likely accurate but you never know:

 

DD #158-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.

DD #173-180: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

DD #181: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

DD #182-184: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

DD #191: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Austin.

 

[artdealer]

What the Bird-Man said!

MI

[heartened]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

[Bird]

key issue? Best. Comic. Ever.

[pinupcartoonguy]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

While I think such a fact should be disclosed, it certainly wouldn't dissuade me from going after the right piece, and if I could get is at a discount because the pencil, while definitely part of the process, didn't touch the board--bonus!

[bocaratondefense]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

The entire Daredevil #181 issue was not pencilled by Miller on the board?

 

 

From an earlier discussion somewhere else, likely accurate but you never know:

 

DD #158-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.

DD #173-180: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

DD #181: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

DD #182-184: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

DD #191: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Austin.

 

Thanks for that information. I always thought the layouts on separate pieces of paper started with DD #185. Had no idea that Miller did not do the pencils on DD #181.

 

I agree that 181 is one of the all time great comic books, and I would love to own a page from that issue. The information is nonetheless still interesting to me.

 

 

 

 

[comicsnyc22]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

Nope.

[Bronty]

The problem is that even if one gets over it the fear is that if you have to sell the next guy wont

[stinkininkin]

This subject of Miller/Janson contributions has been beaten to death over the years. I don't think there is a definitive answer regarding value/desirability for Miller touched pages versus non Miller touched pages. Regarding this DD 181 page on Clink, I would seek full market value for the page were it mine, and I would expect to pay full market value as a buyer. I think many of the pages Miller didn't touch are superior to many that he did touch, and the prices I would pay would reflect that, especially for art from such a great key issue like DD 181. Having said that, I totally get why people might feel differently, and my take is probably a minority opinion. And I'm ok with that.

 

Scott

[J.Sid]

What's the source-line on the information on DD 181 here?

 

Whoever compiled this list is not 100% accurate on the 182-184 pages, many of which were full pencils by Miller originally scheduled to be published as DD#167.

 

Whether or not you personally think it matters, this stuff does matter to a chunk of fans/buyers/bidders, and thus can affect the "full market value" of pages.

 

 

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

The entire Daredevil #181 issue was not pencilled by Miller on the board?

 

 

DD #181: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

DD #182-184: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

[jjonahjameson1]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

Hari, I agree with you in most instances. However, I strongly disagree with you on this one.

[J.Sid]

See: Jack Kirby layouts on early Marvel art. They go for a fraction of what his full pencil pages go for

[drdroom]

See: Jack Kirby layouts on early Marvel art. They go for a fraction of what his full pencil pages go for

 

About half. And those layouts are pencilled on the board. With plot notes.

[mtlevy]

I believe more folk can spot Kirby layout only than Miller layout only...that said all else equal I'd rather have Miller touched my miller/janson...that does sound odd...

[bocaratondefense]

I believe more folk can spot Kirby layout only than Miller layout only...that said all else equal I'd rather have Miller touched my miller/janson...that does sound odd...

 

 

I agee completely. Looser layouts on board is one thing, but to have no Miller penciling on the art board itself is quite another. While some collector can overlook this and pay full price for all Klaus pages, I am positive this has to affect value for at least some collectors.

 

 

 

 

[pinupcartoonguy]

I believe more folk can spot Kirby layout only than Miller layout only...that said all else equal I'd rather have Miller touched my miller/janson...that does sound odd...

 

 

I agee completely. Looser layouts on board is one thing, but to have no Miller penciling on the art board itself is quite another. While some collector can overlook this and pay full price for all Klaus pages, I am positive this has to affect value for at least some collectors.

 

 

 

 

It certainly does, but should it? Comic art is a collaborative process to create a page ready to send to the printer for print. Is the penciller's contribution really any less just because he didn't touch the final production art?

[bocaratondefense]

That would depend on how much OA collectors value the contributions of the penciler versus how much OA collectors value the contributions of the inker. In this hobby, the contributions of the penciler is usually the most important, as evident by modern OA, where the penciled boards sell for multiples of the inked blue line boards.

 

We have seen photocopies of the 8"x 11" paper prelims that Miller did for the latter DD issues, but I don't think these have ever been available to the marketplace. As a Daredevil fan and as a Frank Miller collector, I would love to find a pencil prelim to 181.

 

 

 

[Mephisto]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

Hari, I agree with you in most instances. However, I strongly disagree with you on this one.

 

Hulk 180 interior page by...Herb Trimpe historically significant page by a respected but not stratosphericaly priced artist. Maybe in the past historic aspects were low on collectors lists, I know Scott mentioned that it is for him. However, there seems to be a growing number of people who are willing to pay significantly more for historic well remembered stories and first appearances and battles. How much more did the Wolverine vs. Sabretoth page by Dan Green go for versus other pages by him plus it came from a well liked storyline. I feel like that page sold in the low 4 digits a few times and this time cracked the 5 digit mark. As long as there are a few guys like Hari willing to go above and beyond for certain storylines and firsts regardless of penciler it doesn't really matter what the other half of collectors think as it just takes a few to keep those prices high.

[drdroom]

I believe more folk can spot Kirby layout only than Miller layout only...that said all else equal I'd rather have Miller touched my miller/janson...that does sound odd...

 

 

I agee completely. Looser layouts on board is one thing, but to have no Miller penciling on the art board itself is quite another. While some collector can overlook this and pay full price for all Klaus pages, I am positive this has to affect value for at least some collectors.

 

 

 

 

It certainly does, but should it? Comic art is a collaborative process to create a page ready to send to the printer for print. Is the penciller's contribution really any less just because he didn't touch the final production art?

 

This is a fair question for blue-line inks, but maybe less so for smaller-size layouts on another page. It is a certainty that the penciller would make some lines a little differently, or a lot, if working at full size, and that will present the finisher with a different set of choices. Did Klaus enlarge & lightbox Miller's layouts, or did he redraw? If the latter, then to me it's a fully Janson-drawn page, based on Miller compositions.

[heartened]

But the #181 page wasn't pencilled by Miller on the board.

MI

 

People need to get over it. Key run. Key issue. Period. Our obsession with the penciler over the totality of the art/story is unwarranted.

 

Hari, I agree with you in most instances. However, I strongly disagree with you on this one.

 

That's why it's a discussion board Not a problem. And, of course, I am only talking about the Miller DD run here. I agree that this is not something you can extrapolate across the board - the Kirby comment (where layouts, inker, etc. heavily changed the final result) - is of course accurate. But, as for the Miller DD run, I agree with Scott Williams that the quality never suffered, and in many instances IMPROVED as the run progressed - and of course the best story arc is in the pages/issues that he did the layouts. The art didn't make this run, guys, as much as the story did. Time to acknowledge that. Again, speaking about THIS run in particular. Please don't extrapolate.