Speculation misses

[SquareChaos]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

I like(d) Bedlam, I think there was something there if it's creator actually cared enough to pursue it. Not sure there was something there for people to flip and make a buck, but I would like to know what happens with the story.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

Here's a recent speculation miss

How so? Seems like the seller sold for a gain (disregarding time investment), assuming no more than cover price was paid for them.

If you consider that a gain on a book that was heavily hyped/speculated on, as much as being talked about in all medias including major network newscasts, than I dont know what is a speculation miss. Even funeral for a friend/Death of Superman - to this day - has a higher return margin, and thats a book that's usually being refered to as a benchmark for a speculation miss

 

Superman 75 was a massive homerun of a speculation hit when it was released. Especially at a time when it was very easy to pre-order multiples at 40-50% off cover. Of course, if you waited until it was selling for $25 to start buying, then I agree that it would have been quite a miss.

 

Anyone who did this should probably avoid speculation in general.

 

 

Superman #75 wasn't a massive homerun of a speculation hit, because nobody speculated on it. Oh, sure, there were the people who managed to get a hold of 5-10 copies, but no one (I don't mean literally no one, I mean maybe 100-200 people nationwide who weren't dealers) bought 100 or more copies on speculation, because no one anticipated the demand.

 

And it was selling for $25 the very day it came out.

 

And it's not something that DC built up to, either. Doomsday shows up "for real" in MOS #18, and literally 5 weeks later, Superman is "dead."

 

I'd like to see a show of hands here...honest hands, please...who 1. were not dealers at the time the book came out, and 2. pre-ordered more than 10 copies of this book.

 

There had been nothing like it before, and there has been nothing like it since.

 

I had 3 or 4 friends who pre-ordered 50-100+ copies, and I distinctly remember a couple of those guys sold all but their personal copy that very weekend at a small show in Bloomington, MN(the demand was too great and they weren't greedy or foolish enough to hold out for more). Maybe they were the only ones in the area who did. If so, your estimate of 100-200 nationwide is probably right. All I have to go by is what I personally experienced, but the speculation boom was in full swing during 1992.

 

By the time Superman #75 came out many people had caught on to how much money there was to be made pre-ordering comics. If I personally knew a small group who were profiting from this, how many more were out there seeking out the next big thing? I had local shops selling to me at 40% off cover, Greg Buls was offering volume discounts through Kingpin, and I know there were a few wholesalers in the back pages of CBG at the time. You don't think a reasonable amount of their customers purchased multiples of Superman #75?

 

I do agree that it was indeed surprising how big a hit it actually became though and I don't know anyone who can honestly say they saw that degree of success coming. Personally, I had thrown most of my money into Rai #0 and a couple of silver age books, and only grabbed 10 or so from the friends who were nice enough to only make a small profit off of me.

 

Rai was a nice moneymaker at the time, but I clearly made the less profitable choice. Still, $150-$200 profit off of only 10 copies of Superman #75 was a speculation success for me.

[Pirate]

99% of what Larry recommends.

 

 

 

[Muaythai607]

good old black acre.. how many did you all buy..

[spreads]

99% of what Larry recommends.

 

 

 

Haha. Don't tell his loyal fans with their cups of kool-aid.

[jreezy]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

I'm holding onto my 50+ copies of EoW. What destroyed the value of the #1s was all the variants. Shocker.

[RockMyAmadeus]

So 2.5 million copies of Superman 75 sold and only a couple of people were pre-ordering a huge stack of them? The shops had the cajones to buy 10,000 copies each, but only a few of their customers had the bright idea?

 

(I'll admit that this was at a time when I wasn't closely following this stuff and only had an interest in more vintage books.)

 

There were probably 10 stores, total, who ordered 10,000 copies of Superman #75, and I doubt any single store ordered that many. Chains, yes. Single stores, no. Based on what precedent? There was none. Stores were still awash with the previous year's X-Men #1 and X-Force #1, and the year before that, Spiderman #1. They didn't want to get stuck...AGAIN.

 

And yes, only a few of their customers had the bright idea.

 

In 1993, there were 10,000 existing Diamond accounts. That's JUST Diamond. In 1992, that number was well on its way.

 

Now, did all of those accounts order 400-500 each, to come up with the total of 4 million copies? No. But several of the larger accounts DID order 1,000, 2,000, 5,000, leaving the average at around 100-200 copies per store.

 

The small distributor I worked for ordered only 400 copies, and those 400 copies were spread amongst 20 stores.

 

It was a big deal...no one knew HOW big until it hit the stands. People streamed into stores across the country, hoping to be a part of a pop cultural phenomenon. Millions of people.

 

It was something that had never before happened in comics, and never would again.

I believe the Superman #75 black bagged edition got hoarded by the store owners because while they "sold out" fast the day it came out, there was never a shortage of them in any shop on the wall the following week, month, year, decade.

 

This book was different.

 

While there may have been a few private individuals who maintained original stocks of this book, I doubt any stores, nationwide, did, because the demand was just too high.

 

I'm not sure you would have been seeing copies on the wall the following week, or even month. There was so little price resistance that first few weeks. Sure, if it was on the wall for $100, maybe.

 

It's hard to remember that, in the early 90's, Superman was a dead property. The comic market issued a big ho-hum about Supes, and had since Byrne left. The titles weren't selling, they were down in the dumps. The only exciting event in recent memory was #50, the engagement issue, and that died down fairly quickly.

 

This book came quite literally out of nowhere, and was a perfect storm of media attention, which pushed it to a level that had never before been seen. Yes, X-Men #1 had a print run of 8 million copies, and many, many stores were sitting on boxes of them. There are only so many people who wanted to buy X-Men #1. And this, at a time when X-Men was hotter than Georgia asphalt in July.

 

But Superman...? And then, the innovation of a bagged AND newsstand copy, that were completely different from each other....?

 

It would have been really hard to find a copy those first few weeks, without shelling out $50 or more to pry loose a copy. It really was very, very widely distributed. I doubt any store held on to more than 5-10 copies, at most.

 

I know I got a SINGLE copy, and that was it. It was Superman, for Pete's sake! Nobody cared about SUPERMAN...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here's a recent speculation miss

How so? Seems like the seller sold for a gain (disregarding time investment), assuming no more than cover price was paid for them.

If you consider that a gain on a book that was heavily hyped/speculated on, as much as being talked about in all medias including major network newscasts, than I dont know what is a speculation miss. Even funeral for a friend/Death of Superman - to this day - has a higher return margin, and thats a book that's usually being refered to as a benchmark for a speculation miss

 

Superman 75 was a massive homerun of a speculation hit when it was released. Especially at a time when it was very easy to pre-order multiples at 40-50% off cover. Of course, if you waited until it was selling for $25 to start buying, then I agree that it would have been quite a miss.

 

Anyone who did this should probably avoid speculation in general.

 

 

Superman #75 wasn't a massive homerun of a speculation hit, because nobody speculated on it. Oh, sure, there were the people who managed to get a hold of 5-10 copies, but no one (I don't mean literally no one, I mean maybe 100-200 people nationwide who weren't dealers) bought 100 or more copies on speculation, because no one anticipated the demand.

 

And it was selling for $25 the very day it came out.

 

And it's not something that DC built up to, either. Doomsday shows up "for real" in MOS #18, and literally 5 weeks later, Superman is "dead."

 

I'd like to see a show of hands here...honest hands, please...who 1. were not dealers at the time the book came out, and 2. pre-ordered more than 10 copies of this book.

 

There had been nothing like it before, and there has been nothing like it since.

 

I had 3 or 4 friends who pre-ordered 50-100+ copies, and I distinctly remember a couple of those guys sold all but their personal copy that very weekend at a small show in Bloomington, MN(the demand was too great and they weren't greedy or foolish enough to hold out for more). Maybe they were the only ones in the area who did. If so, your estimate of 100-200 nationwide is probably right. All I have to go by is what I personally experienced, but the speculation boom was in full swing during 1992.

 

By the time Superman #75 came out many people had caught on to how much money there was to be made pre-ordering comics. If I personally knew a small group who were profiting from this, how many more were out there seeking out the next big thing? I had local shops selling to me at 40% off cover, Greg Buls was offering volume discounts through Kingpin, and I know there were a few wholesalers in the back pages of CBG at the time. You don't think a reasonable amount of their customers purchased multiples of Superman #75?

 

No, because it was, well...SUPERMAN! (See above post.)

 

I do agree that it was indeed surprising how big a hit it actually became though and I don't know anyone who can honestly say they saw that degree of success coming. Personally, I had thrown most of my money into Rai #0 and a couple of silver age books, and only grabbed 10 or so from the friends who were nice enough to only make a small profit off of me.

 

Rai #0 had come out several months earlier. Do you mean Bloodshot #1, which came out the same day?

 

[SquareChaos]

So 2.5 million copies of Superman 75 sold and only a couple of people were pre-ordering a huge stack of them? The shops had the cajones to buy 10,000 copies each, but only a few of their customers had the bright idea?

 

(I'll admit that this was at a time when I wasn't closely following this stuff and only had an interest in more vintage books.)

 

There were probably 10 stores, total, who ordered 10,000 copies of Superman #75, and I doubt any single store ordered that many. Chains, yes. Single stores, no. Based on what precedent? There was none. Stores were still awash with the previous year's X-Men #1 and X-Force #1, and the year before that, Spiderman #1. They didn't want to get stuck...AGAIN.

 

And yes, only a few of their customers had the bright idea.

 

In 1993, there were 10,000 existing Diamond accounts. That's JUST Diamond. In 1992, that number was well on its way.

 

Now, did all of those accounts order 400-500 each, to come up with the total of 4 million copies? No. But several of the larger accounts DID order 1,000, 2,000, 5,000, leaving the average at around 100-200 copies per store.

 

The small distributor I worked for ordered only 400 copies, and those 400 copies were spread amongst 20 stores.

 

It was a big deal...no one knew HOW big until it hit the stands. People streamed into stores across the country, hoping to be a part of a pop cultural phenomenon. Millions of people.

 

It was something that had never before happened in comics, and never would again.

I believe the Superman #75 black bagged edition got hoarded by the store owners because while they "sold out" fast the day it came out, there was never a shortage of them in any shop on the wall the following week, month, year, decade.

 

This book was different.

 

While there may have been a few private individuals who maintained original stocks of this book, I doubt any stores, nationwide, did, because the demand was just too high.

 

I'm not sure you would have been seeing copies on the wall the following week, or even month. There was so little price resistance that first few weeks. Sure, if it was on the wall for $100, maybe.

 

It's hard to remember that, in the early 90's, Superman was a dead property. The comic market issued a big ho-hum about Supes, and had since Byrne left. The titles weren't selling, they were down in the dumps. The only exciting event in recent memory was #50, the engagement issue, and that died down fairly quickly.

 

This book came quite literally out of nowhere, and was a perfect storm of media attention, which pushed it to a level that had never before been seen. Yes, X-Men #1 had a print run of 8 million copies, and many, many stores were sitting on boxes of them. There are only so many people who wanted to buy X-Men #1. And this, at a time when X-Men was hotter than Georgia asphalt in July.

 

But Superman...? And then, the innovation of a bagged AND newsstand copy, that were completely different from each other....?

 

It would have been really hard to find a copy those first few weeks, without shelling out $50 or more to pry loose a copy. It really was very, very widely distributed. I doubt any store held on to more than 5-10 copies, at most.

 

I know I got a SINGLE copy, and that was it. It was Superman, for Pete's sake! Nobody cared about SUPERMAN...

 

 

I couldn't find one anywhere... then randomly stumbled over one in Woolworth of all places.

[Amadeus Arkham]

I picked up the "guts" of the black bag edition for $1 a month ago. It has the issue with the "tombstone" cover, the black armband and the cards...but it's all out of the bag. Bag is nowhere to be found.

[Aweandlorder]

Anyone who lived in ny at the time knew that the place to get them cheap was at the subways. There were these 2 guys that got them for us all the time and they would tell us where they'd be the next day (this is before cellphones right) at what time. I swear this almost seemed like dealing drugs. Till this day I have no idea how they did it, or if they "fell off a truck" but they always came through. The most I ever paid was $5 a copy

[Petey's Wheatcake]

Here's a recent speculation miss

How so? Seems like the seller sold for a gain (disregarding time investment), assuming no more than cover price was paid for them.

If you consider that a gain on a book that was heavily hyped/speculated on, as much as being talked about in all medias including major network newscasts, than I dont know what is a speculation miss. Even funeral for a friend/Death of Superman - to this day - has a higher return margin, and thats a book that's usually being refered to as a benchmark for a speculation miss

 

Superman 75 was a massive homerun of a speculation hit when it was released. Especially at a time when it was very easy to pre-order multiples at 40-50% off cover. Of course, if you waited until it was selling for $25 to start buying, then I agree that it would have been quite a miss.

 

Anyone who did this should probably avoid speculation in general.

 

 

Superman #75 wasn't a massive homerun of a speculation hit, because nobody speculated on it. Oh, sure, there were the people who managed to get a hold of 5-10 copies, but no one (I don't mean literally no one, I mean maybe 100-200 people nationwide who weren't dealers) bought 100 or more copies on speculation, because no one anticipated the demand.

 

And it was selling for $25 the very day it came out.

 

And it's not something that DC built up to, either. Doomsday shows up "for real" in MOS #18, and literally 5 weeks later, Superman is "dead."

 

I'd like to see a show of hands here...honest hands, please...who 1. were not dealers at the time the book came out, and 2. pre-ordered more than 10 copies of this book.

 

There had been nothing like it before, and there has been nothing like it since.

 

I had 3 or 4 friends who pre-ordered 50-100+ copies, and I distinctly remember a couple of those guys sold all but their personal copy that very weekend at a small show in Bloomington, MN(the demand was too great and they weren't greedy or foolish enough to hold out for more). Maybe they were the only ones in the area who did. If so, your estimate of 100-200 nationwide is probably right. All I have to go by is what I personally experienced, but the speculation boom was in full swing during 1992.

 

By the time Superman #75 came out many people had caught on to how much money there was to be made pre-ordering comics. If I personally knew a small group who were profiting from this, how many more were out there seeking out the next big thing? I had local shops selling to me at 40% off cover, Greg Buls was offering volume discounts through Kingpin, and I know there were a few wholesalers in the back pages of CBG at the time. You don't think a reasonable amount of their customers purchased multiples of Superman #75?

 

No, because it was, well...SUPERMAN! (See above post.)

 

I do agree that it was indeed surprising how big a hit it actually became though and I don't know anyone who can honestly say they saw that degree of success coming. Personally, I had thrown most of my money into Rai #0 and a couple of silver age books, and only grabbed 10 or so from the friends who were nice enough to only make a small profit off of me.

 

Rai #0 had come out several months earlier. Do you mean Bloodshot #1, which came out the same day?

 

No, I was still too cash poor to grab more than a handful of Bloodshot #1 as well. Back in the day, I would buy certain Valiant issues by the case(many consider this a corrupt and evil practice, I know) and then sell them through CBG, at local shows, or to the small customer base that I had built up at that time. In 1992 many Valiant books continued to rise in price months after release, so there was no need to unload them all quickly. I would sometimes get my initial investment back and then trade or sell them for much more months later. In fact, I distinctly remember an early 1993 CBG ad of mine that featured XO #14 of course(limit 50 I think?), but also many multiples of early Valiant first issues and first appearances because they were worth more than a quick buy and dump(at shows they were the hot books that brought crowds to the table).

 

Anyway, I can't say exactly how many, but I think I still had quite a few copies of Rai #0 months later and my profits to that point had been reinvested in Ditko Spideys as I recall. There was too much to buy and I spread myself too thin. Which, I agree, I never would have done had I known the EXTENT to which Superman #75 would rise in value.

 

There is no way to prove how much the book was speculated on or not though, unless someone posts some receipts from 1992. I highly doubt that's going to happen, so can we just agree that you are generally correct about your overall point that the majority of people were caught by surprise?

 

I do think I'm going to dig through my old CBGs though and find some of those ads from the entrepreneurial boy genius of Minnetonka, MN. It's okay if I ignore the Rai and the Future Force #9s, right? Kind of ruins the whole genius theory.

 

PS. I apologize for the month between replies. Computer issues today.

 

I also apologize for replying with a mini-biography while bringing absolutely nothing of value concerning modern comics to a modern comics forum. Ummm. Enormous looks like it was a hit last week?

[rjrjr]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

EoW will fade just like every other creator owned comic. The numbers will slowly drop from month to month,and the creator needing money will eventually move onto another title. People holding onto this title hoping for some future buying frenzy are going to be hugely disappointed.

 

The ONLY way this won't happen is if a movie or TV series is actually made of the comic. And like the hundreds of optioned comics that people are waiting to see a movie or TV show from, the odds are pretty slim this will happen.

[Flatliner1313]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

EoW will fade just like every other creator owned comic. The numbers will slowly drop from month to month,and the creator needing money will eventually move onto another title. People holding onto this title hoping for some future buying frenzy are going to be hugely disappointed.

 

The ONLY way this won't happen is if a movie or TV series is actually made of the comic. And like the hundreds of optioned comics that people are waiting to see a movie or TV show from, the odds are pretty slim this will happen.

 

 

I've been buying the book purely for enjoyment, and don't expect to cash in on it some day, in a major way. It may get a bit of a premium on certain issues one day, like 90s Vertigo did/does (Before they announced TV or movies for some of it), because the stories were acclaimed and word of mouth continued long after the series ended. And I wouldn't hold my breath on a TV series. I think this is one of the most budget prohibitive comics out there right now. Not to say it's impossible, but there would be a lot more challenges involved in adapting it.

[krighton]

the thread is speculation misses.....a comic can't be considered a miss until the run is over and there's no interest. EoW is still rolling along and has a pretty large fan base.

[SquareChaos]

And I wouldn't hold my breath on a TV series. I think this is one of the most budget prohibitive comics out there right now. Not to say it's impossible, but there would be a lot more challenges involved in adapting it.

 

It would need to be an animated series due to the expense.

 

I don't know why there isn't some animation company solely devoted to bringing comic book series to animated life - it is a great fit and you would have some amount of immediate fan crossover. High quality animation is still really expensive though.

[Vikingreed]

My friend and I were discussing this same thing yesterday.

 

Adult oriented animated series of some of these Modern books would be fantastic.

[krighton]

I think HBO could pretty easily pull it off. Would be cheaper to make than Game of Thrones.

[the authority]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

EoW will fade just like every other creator owned comic. The numbers will slowly drop from month to month,and the creator needing money will eventually move onto another title. People holding onto this title hoping for some future buying frenzy are going to be hugely disappointed.

 

The ONLY way this won't happen is if a movie or TV series is actually made of the comic. And like the hundreds of optioned comics that people are waiting to see a movie or TV show from, the odds are pretty slim this will happen.

 

 

Haha ! This is Image's 3rd best selling book that isn't a #1 issue every month behind The Walking Dead and Saga. I'm certain that it will fall into 4th place now that Image has Outcast but it is the best book they are putting out imo. It still sells over 25,000 copies a month without being a Marvel or DC book and I seriously doubt people are speculating on #13

 

This is my favorite book since Planetary. It is massive so it takes a lot of patience to watch it unfold but issues like #13 make it well worth the wait. Try it, you might like it. (thumbs u

[Vikingreed]

I'm still sitting on an East of West 1. That seems to be my big speculation miss as the book is worth less now on eBay then when I picked it up.

 

+1

 

East of West stabs me brutally in the heart, considering the amount I shelled out for the RRP, Ghost Variants, etc.

 

Bedlam also hurts.

 

 

EoW can't be included in this thread. It's a long term hold for eventual gains. Bedlam is complete and utter .

 

EoW will fade just like every other creator owned comic. The numbers will slowly drop from month to month,and the creator needing money will eventually move onto another title. People holding onto this title hoping for some future buying frenzy are going to be hugely disappointed.

 

The ONLY way this won't happen is if a movie or TV series is actually made of the comic. And like the hundreds of optioned comics that people are waiting to see a movie or TV show from, the odds are pretty slim this will happen.

 

 

Haha ! This is Image's 3rd best selling book that isn't a #1 issue every month behind The Walking Dead and Saga. I'm certain that it will fall into 4th place now that Image has Outcast but it is the best book they are putting out imo. It still sells over 25,000 copies a month without being a Marvel or DC book and I seriously doubt people are speculating on #13

 

This is my favorite book since Planetary. It is massive so it takes a lot of patience to watch it unfold but issues like #13 make it well worth the wait. Try it, you might like it. (thumbs u

 

+1.

I hand out copies of the first TPB to my friends (some aren't even comic readers), and every single one loved it.

 

I know it's easy to be a Negative Nancy, but you should try reading some of these books. You may actually enjoy them.