Hulk 271--why does anybody care about this book?

[whetteon]

[Mishmashman]

TOS 39 (across all grades) and Iron Man 55 (only in 9.8) both have seen run-ups in value after the movies were released.

[AlexanderM]

Do you guys suppose that if there's a GoTG sequel, MP 7 will get a second bump in price?

 

My thinking is, after the movie is a big hit, a lot of fence-sitters may try to go after the real 1st app.

 

Has anything like this ever happened before, though? A book being bumped twice by a sequel? I can't really think of any...Daredevil 1, maybe?

 

AF15.

[the blob]

I remember when SSOC #1 came out. A few or us bought copies to read but by the third issue we were no longer buying.

 

-----------

 

Joey, that was you. that series had a long 200+ issue run. one of the reasons these great mags (SSOC) are not worth a lot is that a lot were printed because a lot of conan fans read it, but i agree, collectors who probably were less interested in the stories and were buying to make a buck later probably didn't so much. savage tales, otoh, despite having some awwesome adams art, became a kazar book, so it was, of course, destined for cancellation.

 

it's funny though, many "comic collectors" go gah-gah over the treasury size books. i cannot imagine anything less convenient to store.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The bigger question to those of you in this thread with the issue on the labeling is: why? CGC is paid to check for resto, assign a grade, and put the book in a slab. They are not paid to make sure all the notes for every single comic book or magazine is 100% accurate.

 

You know you're my homie Rocky, despite your unnatural Rye hatred, but I don't agree with this at all. There is a perception that what CGC puts on the label is the truth, just like what OS puts in the guide is the truth. Is that fair? Are they required to verify? I don't know, but if CGC is not doing their due diligence regarding these label comments, then they shouldn't be putting them on the label. It benefits no one to hand out inaccurate, or conflicting, or potentially misleading information.

 

"Collect the book, not the label" not only applies to that big number in the corner, it also applies to what's actually in the book. I'm not saying I agree with that kind of collector attitude but it's reality in a lot of cases.

 

There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of mislabeled books, including books that are swapped with each other ("Batman #426" on a slab that contains Batman #427), or labels that are the wrong volume, or whatever.

 

This is not to excuse CGC. They have an obligation to make sure the basic label information for which they are paid is correct: item title, grade, restoration if any.

 

But is it CGC's responsibility to hold the hands of every collector...? They aren't paid to make sure their additional label notes are absolutely correct (or even COMPLETE, as has happened in this case.)

 

If I see a Batman #234, and it is incorrectly labeled as having a Jim Aparo cover...is CGC therefore responsible for my purchase...?

 

Buy the BOOK...not the LABEL. People should understand that CGC is not required to include those notes, and they are there as an added bonus, and should NOT be used to make purchasing decisions.

 

PS. I agree with you completely, Fro, that if the info isn't accurate, they shouldn't be putting the info on the label...but they don't purposely put false information on labels (that I know of), and they can't be faulted for what the market may deem is "incomplete" information.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Everyone has their collection preferences but the entirety of "interest" in this character begins and ends with the GOTG movie. Almost all cgc labels for hulk 271 I have seen show it as being raccoon's "first appearance", so they are just plain wrong, and a lot of this book's run up is obviously based on that error. In theory, yes hulk 271 wouldn't be worth much if anything as the second appearance of this character. Undoubtedly the book will come back to earth either way at some point after the movie, and certainly as more collectors/speculators realize that as a "first appearance" book, it actually isn't.

 

-J.

 

Are these old lables from quite a few years ago as I though CGC is supposed to referenced the OS guide when it comes to adding notes onto their labels.

 

Ever since Hulk 271 was broken out in the guide last year for RR, it clearly states that this issue as being dated for 5/82 with the 2nd appearance of RR and in brackets, states ("see Marvel Preview #7 for debut). Marvel Preview #7, on the other hand indicates a date of Summer '76 with the debut of RR and in bracket states (see Incredible Hulk #271 (5/82) for 2nd appearance). Seems pretty clear to me!

 

Does everybody simply goes by the notes on the label when they do their bidding for expensive books, without checking the guide first?

 

FYI, the label on graded copies of Marvel Preview #7 now say First Appearance of Rocket Raccoon. For a long time they didn't, though. The 9.8 that sold last year didn't have it.

 

Not sure if they've updated the Hulk 271 label now.

 

Yes they have. Unfortunately by now CGC is in saving face mode with the labeling and everyone with a skin in hulk 271 is trying to rationalize why anyone actually still needs to own the book.

 

-J.

 

That's just it.

 

That's really not it at all. CGC updates the label information when they can and feel it necessary, but they really couldn't care either way. Their job isn't to dictate market realities, or correct perceived issues in that market.

 

The bigger question to those of you in this thread with the issue on the labeling is: why? CGC is paid to check for resto, assign a grade, and put the book in a slab. They are not paid to make sure all the notes for every single comic book or magazine is 100% accurate.

 

Why do you folks have such a problem with Hulk #271? Is it sour grapes? Are you annoyed that the book sells for so much money? Did you miss it? Be honest; we've all been in that boat from time to time.

 

"Trying to rationalize why anyone still needs to own the book"...? Huh? It's the second appearance of the character, the first comic book appearance, as well as the first cover appearance. Why would any of this be of little interest? Are first appearances the ONLY items that should have value anymore?

 

The question has gone unanswered before, so I will ask it again, and maybe someone will be able to answer it: How can anyone make the claim that "a lot of this book's run up is obviously based on that error." How do you know? What makes you so sure? Do you think everyone buying this book is spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars because they simply don't know any better? What makes that not only true, but "obvious"...?

 

I mean, is everyone trying to rationalize why they should own Hulk #181....?

 

:shrug:

 

"Cameo appearance on last page" versus "first full appearance".

 

.......

 

 

Mis-labeled book by the market leader of comic book grading and slabbing WRONGLY calling a second appearance a first appearance. And regardless of this sellers, are STILL calling it RR's first appearance, which means yes, either they don't know any better or they are deceptively advertising to potential buyers trying to dump their meaningless "second appearance" book with its incorrect label. Some sellers, even when the label actually does say "first comic book appearance" are STILL calling it his first appearance. And don't get me started on all those raw books that are out there being hawked.

This is not an issue of a "cameo appearance" versus a "first full appearance". Apples and oranges. This is an issue of a SEVERE BLUNDER being made by CGC, and in the age of slabbing, rampant speculation and sheeple rushing immediately to the next "hot thing" getting it WRONG, thus causing anyone with an interest in the book to grasp at straws to try to keep the book relevant.

 

That, and rocket raccoon is no wolverine. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

"SEVERE BLUNDER"...? In caps, no less...?

 

You're overreacting. It IS the first appearance of RR: the first comic book appearance. You're trying to make this a clearcut issue, like calling Amazing Spiderman #135 the first appearance of the Punisher, and it's not that simple.

 

Buy the BOOK...NOT the label.

 

"First appearance vs. first full appearance"...or "first appearance vs. first comic book appearance."

 

Doesn't look all that different.

[the blob]

Hulk 271 - "The mythos of Rocket Racoon is more fully developed"

 

These things happen. We've discussed Harley Quinn ad nauseum. As late as 2010 (maybe later) BA 12 doesn't even have a mention of HQ in OPG despite the same guide pricing Mad Love (HQ cartoon version) at a premium and the Harley Quinn alex ross book at a premium and her having MULTIPLE minis and a regular series (with the #1 issue being priced at a premium)! She was a big character by then! Someone was asleep at the wheel.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's really not it at all. CGC updates the label information when they can and feel it necessary, but they really couldn't care either way.

 

What exactly are you basing this statement on? What's your proof that CGC doesn't care about label information? Did someone from CGC tell you it doesn't care about label information?

 

You have incorrectly read my statement. I did not say CGC does not care about label information. I said they don't care that much about UPDATING label information. And that is correct: updating label information is NOT their priority, which is why they do it in RESPONSE to market realities (rather than being proactive.) Note that I said "their job isn't to correct (that is, by UPDATING label information) perceived issues in (the) market."

 

Their job isn't to dictate market realities, or correct perceived issues in that market.

 

No one has said that it's CGC's job to dictate market realities--no one is talking about that. This discussion is about correct information. CGC has mislabeled Hulk 271 as a first appearance of a character when it isn't.

 

Many people have said, including yourself, that, in essence "lots of people have paid money they shouldn't have paid for this book based on erroneous label information." Therefore, since CGC "got the label wrong", the market was dictated by CGC's error, and, at the very least, CGC should change the label to "second appearance" (thus dictating to the market how the book should, according to you, actually be viewed.)

 

That's what this entire conversation has been about. Not sure why you think no one said that..

 

This isn't an issue for dispute. Marvel Preview 7 is RR's first appearance. Hulk 271 is his second appearance.

 

No one has disputed this in this entire thread. However, it is also just as accurate to say that Hulk #271 is his "first comic book appearance." That also isn't an issue for dispute, though it seems to be for several.

 

The bigger question to those of you in this thread with the issue on the labeling is: why? CGC is paid to check for resto, assign a grade, and put the book in a slab. They are not paid to make sure all the notes for every single comic book or magazine is 100% accurate.

 

Again, what is your basis for asserting any of this? What is your basis for saying that CGC is only paid to check for resto, assign grades, and slab books?

 

That's an easy question to answer: thousands upon thousands of slabs that have no notes at all. Allow me to illustrate with an example:

 

 

There are no notes included on that label whatsoever. There IS, however, a title, a grade, a page designation, and a restoration designation (that is, "Universal", meaning "restoration free.")

 

By virtue of the fact that there are NO NOTES, then either the customer who subbed this didn't get what they paid for....or, CGC is not paid to make sure they have notes, and are included as a bonus at CGC's sole discretion.

 

Which is the more likely scenario....? It is self-evident.

 

If CGC isn't "paid" to make sure the notes on a label are accurate, why put notes on it at all? What significance would any information have at all? Is it just decorative? Are notes just there to decorate an otherwise plain label? Why note things like "classic cover" on a book that collectors regard as having a classic cover? Why note the first appearance or origin of any character on a label? Why note who wrote and drew a comic? If keeping accurate notations is not part of what CGC gets "paid" to do, why do it at all?

 

In other words, throw out that baby with the bathwater.

 

Just because CGC does not have to include notes, does not therefore mean they shouldn't or don't want to. That is fallacious reasoning.

 

Basically what you're saying is this: "Believe the grade and resto check listed on the CGC label--but everything else? Eh! Who cares--it may or may not be accurate. But I assure you the grade and resto check are accurate!" I don't think CGC itself would agree with you.

 

That's not what I've said at all, and have never, ever said, nor ever would say, as I have already made clear in this reply. You're missing the forest for the trees. Let me make myself crystal clear:

 

The relevant, pertinent, important information on the label is the title, grade, restoration designation, and page quality designation..

 

That doesn't therefore mean that you should "Believe the grade and resto check listed...I assure you the grade and resto check are accurate!"

 

Please don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said.

 

Why do you folks have such a problem with Hulk #271? Is it sour grapes? Are you annoyed that the book sells for so much money? Did you miss it? Be honest; we've all been in that boat from time to time.

 

I don't think anyone here has sour grapes about Hulk 271. I think what's troubling is that there is inaccurate information being fed to people.

 

You can only answer for yourself. You don't know, and neither do I, which is why I did NOT say "you people are just having sour grapes." I asked the question, because it is undoubtedly true for some. Which "some"? Don't know. They'll have to answer for themselves, if they choose to.

 

It's the second appearance of the character, the first comic book appearance, as well as the first cover appearance. Why would any of this be of little interest? Are first appearances the ONLY items that should have value anymore?

 

Again, no one said that first appearances are the only items that should have value anymore.

 

And that's why those were questions, rather than statements. And, in this market, it's a VERY GOOD question.

 

What most boardies have been saying is that the perception is that the sole reason why Hulk 271 is selling at its current values is due to inaccurate information.

 

...and I ask again...how can you POSSIBLY make such an assertion? Whether "most boardies" have been saying that is debatable. You DO understand that such an assertion is unprovable, unless you were to survey everyone who bought a copy, right?

 

Can you find even ONE person just on this board who will admit to paying huge sums of money for this book based on their erroneous perception that it was RR's actual first appearance...?

 

It absolutely boggles the mind to think that people are laying down hundreds and hundreds of dollars for these books based on an error of which they are unaware!

 

It's mind-boggling!

 

The question has gone unanswered before, so I will ask it again, and maybe someone will be able to answer it: How can anyone make the claim that "a lot of this book's run up is obviously based on that error." How do you know? What makes you so sure? Do you think everyone buying this book is spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars because they simply don't know any better? What makes that not only true, but "obvious"...?

 

Because in January 2012 the book in 9.8 sold for $38 and one recently sold for $800. But I guess it's possible many people are willing to drop between $600 and $800 on it because they love that Al Milgrom cover. It's possible 9.8-only collectors are paying $800 because they need to fill a hole in their Hulk run.

 

Orrrrrr....Occam's Razor, and the real reason this book sold in January 2012 for $38 and now for $800 is because the market decided the book was worth that price because the character was going to be in a movie, like has happened with multiple OTHER characters in the past 25 years (starting with Joker.)

 

 

But the price of this book in 9.8 is approaching what ASM 300, the first full Venom, in 9.8 goes for. So I think it's safe to assume that the reason why Hulk 271 has seen such a run up is because there are many people out there who believe Hulk 271 to be the first appearance of RR when it is not.

 

You only repeated what you said before, without giving a reason for WHY you think all these supposed buyers believe this, other than "it's mislabeled."

 

Do YOU spend hundreds of dollars without investigation? I don't. Does anyone?

 

Your reasoning is unsupportable.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Hulk 271 - "The mythos of Rocket Racoon is more fully developed"

 

These things happen. We've discussed Harley Quinn ad nauseum. As late as 2010 (maybe later) BA 12 doesn't even have a mention of HQ in OPG despite the same guide pricing Mad Love (HQ cartoon version) at a premium and the Harley Quinn alex ross book at a premium and her having MULTIPLE minis and a regular series (with the #1 issue being priced at a premium)! She was a big character by then! Someone was asleep at the wheel.

 

For a long while, everyone thought that Mad Love was Harley's first appearance. I may even be able to find something in PRINT that states that.

 

Then, it was discovered that it was actually BA #12.

 

Oops.

 

OPG #'s 29, 30, and 31 list BA #12 as having a "Batgirl and Poison Ivy cover", with a conspicuous absence.

 

[AlexanderM]

I understand that people who have invested in the first appearance of RR want to defend its value even after its widely known to actually be his second appearance.

 

____

 

As for the comparison with IH180/181:

 

People who want to read about and know who RR is... should go to MP7. IH271 is the second appearance.

 

People who want to read about and know who Wolverine is... should go to IH181. 180 is just a last page with no real information at all (except what he looks like, but if that was important then the appearance of many heroes happened in ads in other titles).

[RockMyAmadeus]

I understand that people who have invested in the first appearance of RR want to defend its value even after its widely known to actually be his second appearance.

 

____

 

As for the comparison with IH180/181:

 

People who want to read about and know who RR is... should go to MP7. IH271 is the second appearance.

 

People who want to read about and know who Wolverine is... should go to IH181. 180 is just a last page with no real information at all (except what he looks like, but if that was important then the appearance of many heroes happened in ads in other titles).

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask....what does Hulk #181 reveal about Wolverine that isn't revealed in #180.....?

 

Because, while Wolverine only appears on the last page of #180, that isn't the only reference to him in the issue....

 

[NP_Gresham]

Different name seems like a prototype, not a first appearance.

Same as OAAW #81 vs #83.

The debate will never end

[Broke as a Joke]

Different name seems like a prototype, not a first appearance.

Same as OAAW #81 vs #83.

The debate will never end

 

Yep. Until Mantlo himself said it, nobody even knew for sure if that raccoon was supposed to be the same character. So why give CGC a hard time about labeling when it wasn't even for sure if they were the same person.

 

I don't see Hulk 271 cooling down any time soon. It's a cover appearance, way more accessible, and by all accounts chronologically the debut of the character. That equals win.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I understand that people who have invested in the first appearance of RR want to defend its value even after its widely known to actually be his second appearance.

 

____

 

As for the comparison with IH180/181:

 

People who want to read about and know who RR is... should go to MP7. IH271 is the second appearance.

 

People who want to read about and know who Wolverine is... should go to IH181. 180 is just a last page with no real information at all (except what he looks like, but if that was important then the appearance of many heroes happened in ads in other titles).

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask....what does Hulk #181 reveal about Wolverine that isn't revealed in #180.....?

 

Because, while Wolverine only appears on the last page of #180, that isn't the only reference to him in the issue....

 

 

Ok, I just read both issues, and we find out in #181 that Wolvie is a mutant, has adamantium claws, that he is a special project of the Canadian government, and that he has "kinks in his psychological profile" that required the gov't to mold him from a savage to a soldier.

 

In issue #180, we find out that he is called "Weapon X", he's a Canadian government weapon, his name, his size, and his looks.

 

 

I dunno, seems pretty even to me, all things considered.

[AlexanderM]

I understand that people who have invested in the first appearance of RR want to defend its value even after its widely known to actually be his second appearance.

 

____

 

As for the comparison with IH180/181:

 

People who want to read about and know who RR is... should go to MP7. IH271 is the second appearance.

 

People who want to read about and know who Wolverine is... should go to IH181. 180 is just a last page with no real information at all (except what he looks like, but if that was important then the appearance of many heroes happened in ads in other titles).

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask....what does Hulk #181 reveal about Wolverine that isn't revealed in #180.....?

 

Because, while Wolverine only appears on the last page of #180, that isn't the only reference to him in the issue....

 

 

Ok, I just read both issues, and we find out in #181 that Wolvie is a mutant, has adamantium claws, that he is a special project of the Canadian government, and that he has "kinks in his psychological profile" that required the gov't to mold him from a savage to a soldier.

 

In issue #180, we find out that he is called "Weapon X", he's a Canadian government weapon, his name, his size, and his looks.

 

 

I dunno, seems pretty even to me, all things considered.

 

Just looking at RR and knowing his name... we would have no idea who he is...

 

He is in fact a trash-talking, quick-witted, shoot-crazy etc etc racoon.. who doesn't even know he is a racoon... all of those things make up his personality... define who he is.

 

Same for 181. We see Wolverine interact and get for the fist time a look at who he is and how he behaves relative to others etc.

 

Just seeing him (which you cleverly made into several things.. (size, looks..), and knowing his name - that is just what any ad for an upcoming comic will tell us: "Buy the new number of XX to see the YY take on the new hero WW!!". The information that is in those ads is not why people buy comics stories (stories, not pictures). And therefore 181 is obviously the most wanted issue. Just like MP7 is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I understand that people who have invested in the first appearance of RR want to defend its value even after its widely known to actually be his second appearance.

 

____

 

As for the comparison with IH180/181:

 

People who want to read about and know who RR is... should go to MP7. IH271 is the second appearance.

 

People who want to read about and know who Wolverine is... should go to IH181. 180 is just a last page with no real information at all (except what he looks like, but if that was important then the appearance of many heroes happened in ads in other titles).

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask....what does Hulk #181 reveal about Wolverine that isn't revealed in #180.....?

 

Because, while Wolverine only appears on the last page of #180, that isn't the only reference to him in the issue....

 

 

Ok, I just read both issues, and we find out in #181 that Wolvie is a mutant, has adamantium claws, that he is a special project of the Canadian government, and that he has "kinks in his psychological profile" that required the gov't to mold him from a savage to a soldier.

 

In issue #180, we find out that he is called "Weapon X", he's a Canadian government weapon, his name, his size, and his looks.

 

 

I dunno, seems pretty even to me, all things considered.

 

Just looking at RR and knowing his name... we would have no idea who he is...

 

He is in fact a trash-talking, quick-witted, shoot-crazy etc etc racoon.. who doesn't even know he is a racoon... all of those things make up his personality... define who he is.

 

Same for 181. We see Wolverine interact and get for the fist time a look at who he is and how he behaves relative to others etc.

 

Just seeing him (which you cleverly made into several things.. (size, looks..), and knowing his name - that is just what any ad for an upcoming comic will tell us: "Buy the new number of XX to see the YY take on the new hero WW!!". The information that is in those ads is not why people buy comics stories (stories, not pictures). And therefore 181 is obviously the most wanted issue. Just like MP7 is.

 

 

I would suggest that Hulk #181 is obviously the most wanted issue because of the fact that Wolverine appears on the cover, and is central to the story.

 

I could be wrong.

 

I have been before.

 

But Hulk #180 is much more than just an "upcoming ad" in regards to Wolvie. As stated before, the last page isn't the only reference to him....and yes, his looks AND his size are two different things, since his size has always been a central feature to the character (which didn't change even if his costume did.)

[Jaydogrules]

Couple people really seem to be grasping at straws here. Comparing the content and first appearances featured in MP 7 to Hulk 180 is a reach, borderline, ridiculous. No offense, guys.

 

If you must compare RR to Wolverine, the appropriate comparison is Hulk 271 to GSXM 1. The "second appearances" of each character.

 

And Hulk 271 is already cooling off as more and more of the new correctly labeled slabs hit the market and market awareness for MP 7 increases.

 

*Disclaimer- I have zero interest in owning either.

 

 

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Couple people really seem to be grasping at straws here. Comparing the content and first appearances featured in MP 7 to Hulk 180 is a reach, borderline, ridiculous. No offense, guys.

 

If you're not trying to be offensive, it would probably be better if you didn't say what others post is "grasping at straws" and "ridiculous."

 

You absolutely have got to come to an understanding of context.

 

The ONLY comparison made was that there is "first appearance" and "first full appearance" (meaning, there's clear precedent for distinguishing between THIS "first appearance" and THAT "first appearance") and there is "first appearance" and "first comic book appearance."

 

Let's not be literalists with everything posted, huh...? No one compared the content of #180 to MP #7. Such a comparison, rightly, would fail.

 

If you must compare RR to Wolverine, the appropriate comparison is Hulk 271 to GSXM 1. The "second appearances" of each character.

 

That's not an appropriate comparison. Wolverine appears on the cover of Hulk #181, just as RR appears on the cover of Hulk #271.

 

And Hulk 271 is already cooling off as more and more of the new correctly labeled slabs hit the market and market awareness for MP 7 increases.

 

 

 

-J.

 

Orrrrr...Occam's Razor again...the book is "cooling off" because of the natural progression of the market, as more supply enters the market, and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the slabs are "labeled correctly."

 

This notion that people pay hundreds of dollars solely because the notes on the slab have misled them....it's just not within the realm of reason.

[the blob]

Hulk 271 - "The mythos of Rocket Racoon is more fully developed"

 

These things happen. We've discussed Harley Quinn ad nauseum. As late as 2010 (maybe later) BA 12 doesn't even have a mention of HQ in OPG despite the same guide pricing Mad Love (HQ cartoon version) at a premium and the Harley Quinn alex ross book at a premium and her having MULTIPLE minis and a regular series (with the #1 issue being priced at a premium)! She was a big character by then! Someone was asleep at the wheel.

 

For a long while, everyone thought that Mad Love was Harley's first appearance. I may even be able to find something in PRINT that states that.

 

Then, it was discovered that it was actually BA #12.

 

Oops.

 

OPG #'s 29, 30, and 31 list BA #12 as having a "Batgirl and Poison Ivy cover", with a conspicuous absence.

 

 

OPG 39 just says origin for mad love, no notation for BA 12 at all re: HQ.

 

this years OPG has BA 12 at a healthy #, but neglects 28 or whatever the 3rd or 4th app is. not a big deal, but it is roughly a $10 book more or less.

[Vikingreed]

Different name seems like a prototype, not a first appearance.

Same as OAAW #81 vs #83.

The debate will never end

 

Yep. Until Mantlo himself said it, nobody even knew for sure if that raccoon was supposed to be the same character. So why give CGC a hard time about labeling when it wasn't even for sure if they were the same person.

 

I don't see Hulk 271 cooling down any time soon. It's a cover appearance, way more accessible, and by all accounts chronologically the debut of the character. That equals win.

 

He stated they were the same character on the letter's page of the original RR mini.

Which was released in 1985.

So it was established they were the same character 30 years ago.