Should auction sites be auctioning off counterfeit books?

[Mark 1]

I'm submitting my counterfeit Action 1 in soon. Hoping it gets a 9.2 and beats that 9.0 currently on eBay!

[Spyder!]

Seriously, what is the big deal here? If people have a desire to own a counterfeit item, knowing it is counterfeit, who cares? You can't compare comic books and currency printed by the government in this regard as the laws and process around each are completely different.

 

I think it's great that CGC grades this and clearly notes the book as counterfeit.

 

The last thing I want is another stupid law telling me what I can and can't own. If I want a counterfeit TMNT #1 for its history in that series, what gives the government the right to stop me from owning it?

[dupont2005]

Wouldn't that be like the US Treasury accepting counterfeit bills at less that face value but still at some kind of value?

 

Maybe a counterfeit $10 bill is worth $2.

Not the US Treasury, but a retailer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/261563685847?lpid=82

[Mike's Rack]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

There can be criminal sanctions for copyright infringement.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/506

 

I would put the odds of prosecution between unlikely and infinitesimal. My biggest beef is that the creators never saw any proceeds from this book. Counterfeit books in the public domain is a different story, those are called reprints

[Mike's Rack]

If I want a counterfeit TMNT #1 for its history in that series, what gives the government the right to stop me from owning it?

 

The Constitution?

 

Article I, Section 8, Clause 8

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

[dupont2005]

If I want a counterfeit TMNT #1 for its history in that series, what gives the government the right to stop me from owning it?

 

The Constitution?

 

Article I, Section 8, Clause 8

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

Someone should have quoted that at the Kirby lawsuit.

[ItsJustRyan]

 

 

This really bothers me. I don't think CGC should be grading fake books and I certainly don't think any reputable dealer should be selling them.

How is it that trimming a micrometer off a corner makes you a crook but selling counterfeit books is cool?

 

Auction Item: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1984 Magazine) 1COUNTERFEIT CGC 9.4

 

Paper: White

Slab: New, unblemished

COUNTERFEIT.

CGC Serial #0502153001

Ends 10d 20:29:48

Bid History 13 bids

Current Bid $201.50

Your Secret Max Bid

$ (must bid at least $204.00) About auction bidding

Auction bids are binding. Do not bid unless you intend to pay for the item if you are the winning bidder.

COUNTERFEIT. Origin and 1st appearance of the Turtles and Splinter. Shredder appearance. Counterfeit copies can be identified by a half inch wide white streak or scratch marks across the center of the back cover, as well as a bluish black instead of a deep black on the black part of the cover. Counterfeit copies also have very white inside paper and the inside cover is a bright white. $1.50 cover price, 7.5" x 11" Cover price $1.50.

 

 

 

I agree. Would this not encourage someone that had great counterfeiting skills to just make 50 copies of TMNT #1 and sub them

 

Make a copy for $10, slab it for $35, sell it for $200....

[comixcroz]

 

 

This really bothers me. I don't think CGC should be grading fake books and I certainly don't think any reputable dealer should be selling them.

How is it that trimming a micrometer off a corner makes you a crook but selling counterfeit books is cool?

 

Auction Item: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1984 Magazine) 1COUNTERFEIT CGC 9.4

 

Paper: White

Slab: New, unblemished

COUNTERFEIT.

CGC Serial #0502153001

Ends 10d 20:29:48

Bid History 13 bids

Current Bid $201.50

Your Secret Max Bid

$ (must bid at least $204.00) About auction bidding

Auction bids are binding. Do not bid unless you intend to pay for the item if you are the winning bidder.

COUNTERFEIT. Origin and 1st appearance of the Turtles and Splinter. Shredder appearance. Counterfeit copies can be identified by a half inch wide white streak or scratch marks across the center of the back cover, as well as a bluish black instead of a deep black on the black part of the cover. Counterfeit copies also have very white inside paper and the inside cover is a bright white. $1.50 cover price, 7.5" x 11" Cover price $1.50.

 

 

 

I agree. Would this not encourage someone that had great counterfeiting skills to just make 50 copies of TMNT #1 and sub them

 

Make a copy for $10, slab it for $35, sell it for $200....

 

That brings up a good question - if someone were to create a Cerebus #1 counterfeit copy right now, would CGC grade it NG? Or send it back? It would still qualify as a counterfeit copy but it would essentially be a "fake of a fake" and therefore the historical significance of the vintage counterfeit that is sought after and collected would be ruined. There is nothing signifying the particular counterfeit run just that it is a counterfeit copy.

 

So will they grade any counterfeit copy of Cerebus #1 or just the copies that came from the known vintage release?

 

[Dr. Balls]

Selling counterfeit books, labeled or not, is a federal crime.

http://www.naw.org/govrelations/advisory.php?articleid=563

 

If I'm not mistaken, that is for trademarked products, not copywritten material. I'm sure there's separate issues for that (infringement), but that link is in regards to trademarked goods - which likely did not cover a lot of the books we're talking about here (other than the X-Men book, which was most-assuredly trademarked at the time).

 

CFD was for sure not trademarked back then, not sure about TMNT or Cerebus.

 

There can be criminal sanctions for copyright infringement.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/506

 

I would put the odds of prosecution between unlikely and infinitesimal. My biggest beef is that the creators never saw any proceeds from this book. Counterfeit books in the public domain is a different story, those are called reprints

 

Definitely - a yes, hard to prosecute because a person has to A) have money to retain a lawyer to go after infringers and B) the infringers have to have made enough money that when you sue for damages, you actually get what you've sued for.

 

I can see why the issue would bother people because it short-changes the creators. However, in the case of CFD #1, that counterfeit was made a few years after the book was printed, and from the sounds of it: was meant to take advantage of the high demand in the aftermarket. Linsner did not stand to lose any profits, as the primary buyers were collectors looking for the first issue, not a additional printing or re-release. The books were made and slipped out into the wild, disguised as books from the original run.

 

Linsner didn't get screwed, the people buying it got screwed (I believe it was $175 book back then) - doesn't make it right, just showing that there are others who get nailed in the scenario.

[Dr. Balls]

 

 

This really bothers me. I don't think CGC should be grading fake books and I certainly don't think any reputable dealer should be selling them.

How is it that trimming a micrometer off a corner makes you a crook but selling counterfeit books is cool?

 

Auction Item: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1984 Magazine) 1COUNTERFEIT CGC 9.4

 

Paper: White

Slab: New, unblemished

COUNTERFEIT.

CGC Serial #0502153001

Ends 10d 20:29:48

Bid History 13 bids

Current Bid $201.50

Your Secret Max Bid

$ (must bid at least $204.00) About auction bidding

Auction bids are binding. Do not bid unless you intend to pay for the item if you are the winning bidder.

COUNTERFEIT. Origin and 1st appearance of the Turtles and Splinter. Shredder appearance. Counterfeit copies can be identified by a half inch wide white streak or scratch marks across the center of the back cover, as well as a bluish black instead of a deep black on the black part of the cover. Counterfeit copies also have very white inside paper and the inside cover is a bright white. $1.50 cover price, 7.5" x 11" Cover price $1.50.

 

 

 

I agree. Would this not encourage someone that had great counterfeiting skills to just make 50 copies of TMNT #1 and sub them

 

Make a copy for $10, slab it for $35, sell it for $200....

 

[Aman619]

CGC graded a counterfeit X-Men #94 as a NG:

 

 

 

I asked about this one at some point and was told it got an NG because this book, unlike the Cerebus, TMNT, etc copies, doesn't have any historical significance.

 

does anyone know the backstory on this fake ?? Seems like a lot of work and they solved all the printing issues that we always discuss that are supposed to make this impossible. Comparing the coloring, even the shades of yellows on the face, its a perfect match. you can't just scan a printed cover, and starting with the line art and matching all the coloring perfectly is no easy task either. And were the insides all reprinted too?

 

I mean, if this worked, why not an Action 1? or a AF15? They solved the issues here, why not aim higher?

 

Or, did they just print covers and marry them to existing interiors?

 

[dupont2005]

 

 

This really bothers me. I don't think CGC should be grading fake books and I certainly don't think any reputable dealer should be selling them.

How is it that trimming a micrometer off a corner makes you a crook but selling counterfeit books is cool?

 

Auction Item: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1984 Magazine) 1COUNTERFEIT CGC 9.4

 

Paper: White

Slab: New, unblemished

COUNTERFEIT.

CGC Serial #0502153001

Ends 10d 20:29:48

Bid History 13 bids

Current Bid $201.50

Your Secret Max Bid

$ (must bid at least $204.00) About auction bidding

Auction bids are binding. Do not bid unless you intend to pay for the item if you are the winning bidder.

COUNTERFEIT. Origin and 1st appearance of the Turtles and Splinter. Shredder appearance. Counterfeit copies can be identified by a half inch wide white streak or scratch marks across the center of the back cover, as well as a bluish black instead of a deep black on the black part of the cover. Counterfeit copies also have very white inside paper and the inside cover is a bright white. $1.50 cover price, 7.5" x 11" Cover price $1.50.

 

 

 

I agree. Would this not encourage someone that had great counterfeiting skills to just make 50 copies of TMNT #1 and sub them

 

Make a copy for $10, slab it for $35, sell it for $200....

Buy a comic off the rack for $3, slab it for $35, sell it for $200.

 

It all sounds silly now, right?

[Icculus308win]

I personally think they're an interesting part of comic book history :shrug:

 

+1

They are a collectible.

[shadroch]

I guess the sellers would be willing to accept counterfeit currency for their equally fake goods. Trim a book and you are a monster. Counterfeit a book and its historic.

[Dr. Balls]

CGC graded a counterfeit X-Men #94 as a NG:

 

 

 

I asked about this one at some point and was told it got an NG because this book, unlike the Cerebus, TMNT, etc copies, doesn't have any historical significance.

 

does anyone know the backstory on this fake ?? Seems like a lot of work and they solved all the printing issues that we always discuss that are supposed to make this impossible. Comparing the coloring, even the shades of yellows on the face, its a perfect match. you can't just scan a printed cover, and starting with the line art and matching all the coloring perfectly is no easy task either. And were the insides all reprinted too?

 

I mean, if this worked, why not an Action 1? or a AF15? They solved the issues here, why not aim higher?

 

Or, did they just print covers and marry them to existing interiors?

 

There's many other factors to consider like weight of the book, linescreen frequency, rosette pattern, etc - all of which can't be judged unless you're looking at the book in-hand.

 

You can scan a cover now with modern scanners and get almost no mioré pattern, and matching the color is a minor obstacle - as long as you have the ability to calibrate the printer to your monitor (which is time-consuming, but do-able). At work, we have several settings for our programs that are calibrated to the service bureaus that print out work, to ensure consistancy of color from what I am looking at on my monitor to what is being output.

 

The hardest part to replicate is the newsprint on the inside - to my knowledge, you still can't run newsprint through a digital press, which means the forger would have to attempt to make the counterfeit on different paper - which will change the entire inside of the book and essentially make it a dead giveaway at that point.

 

Either that, or they are going to spend thousands of dollars on actually reprinting the book on period-correct paper on a press, which is a gigantic undertaking in itself, and would likely not ever result in a break-even situation for the forger.

[Dr. Balls]

I guess the sellers would be willing to accept counterfeit currency for their equally fake goods. Trim a book and you are a monster. Counterfeit a book and its historic.

 

Trim a countefeit book and you're a historical monster. Like Godzilla!

[Buzzetta]

One of the most counterfeited sports cards are usually turned away if found to be counterfeited. That would be the Jordan rookie.

 

http://www.cardboardconnection.com/how-to-spot-fake-michael-jordan-rookie-card

 

As far as CGC, grading counterfeit issues is entirely up to them. However they should be consistent. Either they are all NG counterfeit or they are graded.

 

Personally, I hold no value for a counterfeit book.

[shadroch]

I just got off the phone with Becketts.

If they receive a counterfeit card in a submission, they will return it. If they receive a large group of counterfeit cards in a submission, they will notify the rightful rights-holder.

[Icculus308win]

I guess the sellers would be willing to accept counterfeit currency for their equally fake goods. Trim a book and you are a monster. Counterfeit a book and its historic.

 

Well I just know I would buy it as a collectible and add it with my TMNT memorabilia.

[Dr. Balls]

I just got off the phone with Becketts.

If they receive a counterfeit card in a submission, they will return it. If they receive a large group of counterfeit cards in a submission, they will notify the rightful rights-holder.

 

 

Personally, I hold no value for a counterfeit book.

 

I had a reeeeal hard time wanting to pay cash for a CFD counterfeit, luckily a boardie helped me out with a trade for one.

 

And I wanted it to complete my CFD stuff. It sucks when Completionist Disorder sets in.