Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[Jaydogrules]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

On another note...how are neither NM 98 nor ASM 300 not on that "copper" list?

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

I don't remember what I sold mine for, but it was in 2002-2003, for probably a couple hundred dollars or so...it was a nice VG/F or better, too.

[HighStakesComics]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

I don't remember what I sold mine for, but it was in 2002-2003, for probably a couple hundred dollars or so...it was a nice VG/F or better, too.

 

Yeah, Id probably take my chances with the FF 2. There's some guys on this board though that are really into War comics. Your buddy, Mr. Greenham, has multi-page article about them in this edition.

 

The Copper Age list is all over the place. Variants have jumped the shark. I don't mind the BA 35 centers, but half the books on the Copper Age list?

 

You know how I feel about a few of the BA's. GL 76 is about 4 or 5 spots too high. The last two on the list are a bit shaky IMO as well.

[Gatsby77]

Happy to see they've _finally_ given TMNT # 1 a value again.

 

To omit the price, noting only "prices vary wildly on this book," was a cop-out, particularly when we've got GPA data going back 5+ years (now 10+ years).

[bronze johnny]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

I don't remember what I sold mine for, but it was in 2002-2003, for probably a couple hundred dollars or so...it was a nice VG/F or better, too.

 

Yeah, Id probably take my chances with the FF 2. There's some guys on this board though that are really into War comics. Your buddy, Mr. Greenham, has multi-page article about them in this edition.

 

The Copper Age list is all over the place. Variants have jumped the shark. I don't mind the BA 35 centers, but half the books on the Copper Age list?

 

You know how I feel about a few of the BA's. GL 76 is about 4 or 5 spots too high. The last two on the list are a bit shaky IMO as well.

 

OAAW 83 is the greatest war key ever - the Action Comics 1 of the war genre. It also happens to be the scarcest SA key. If my memory serves me correctly, an 18,000 offer was made for a CGC 8.0 a year or two ago by boardie I know. The highest graded copy is a CGC 9.0. A 9.2 would sell for 6 figures if it ever surfaces. A 4.5 sold for almost 3k last year on CLink.

 

As for my earlier statement about this book having been left off the list after an effort to lobby on its behalf by the Correspondent's of the War Report to include it, I'll leave that to you guys to draw your own conclusions - click on below and scroll down to my exchange with Andy (greenham):

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1225701&fpart=848

[Jaydogrules]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

I don't remember what I sold mine for, but it was in 2002-2003, for probably a couple hundred dollars or so...it was a nice VG/F or better, too.

 

Yeah, Id probably take my chances with the FF 2. There's some guys on this board though that are really into War comics. Your buddy, Mr. Greenham, has multi-page article about them in this edition.

 

The Copper Age list is all over the place. Variants have jumped the shark. I don't mind the BA 35 centers, but half the books on the Copper Age list?

 

You know how I feel about a few of the BA's. GL 76 is about 4 or 5 spots too high. The last two on the list are a bit shaky IMO as well.

 

After seeing the actual list I don't have a problem with the value assigned to cerebus 1, 9.2, I actually think his value for the hulk 181 9.2 is too low.

 

As for that copper list, yeah its a disaster.

 

-J.

[FlyingDonut]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

Well, to use your argument, the highest recorded GPA sale is for an 8.0, and that one sold for $16,730 in November 2011. A 9.2 would sell for a lot. How much? I don't know, but a lot. A big big big pile. It would be a stunning sale.

[RockMyAmadeus]

bronzejonny has a point. OAAW 83 has the higher value in 9.2.

 

Thanks.

 

Clearly, it's an error/oversight.

 

But $15,000 for OAAW #83?

 

That's madness.

 

Just madness.

 

 

Well, to use your argument, the highest recorded GPA sale is for an 8.0, and that one sold for $16,730 in November 2011. A 9.2 would sell for a lot. How much? I don't know, but a lot. A big big big pile. It would be a stunning sale.

 

Hey, don't look at me. I'm not disputing any of that.

 

I am, however, free to think it is madness.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As for my earlier statement about this book having been left off the list after an effort to lobby on its behalf by the Correspondent's of the War Report to include it, I'll leave that to you guys to draw your own conclusions - click on below and scroll down to my exchange with Andy (greenham):

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1225701&fpart=848

 

It is clearly an oversight.

 

Otherwise, it's a conspiracy by Overstreet to....do something? Because the book is clearly priced at $15,000.

 

[Superman2006]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered only one or the other - for $500.

 

End of story.

 

Because, thus far, they've seen, they will make MORE MONEY off the book -MEANING that in HIGH GRADE it is more VALUABLE to them.

 

Hence, it's more VALUABLE in HG as reflected in the OSPG, a guide for people who SELL comics.

 

See jaydog, you look at GPA as a novice and a fan would... As what HAS happened. A professional comic book dealer looks at it as what MAY happened, combined with what they HEAR every DAY from people who buy HG books, combined with a decades old knowledge of the marketplace.

 

Real world application vs I fell in love with Wolverine as a boy.

 

You lose.

 

 

Hi Chuck, I notice that you keep making the same point above in regards to 9.4 graded copies. However, since Overstreet's top 10 list is based on value in NM-, what 9.4's sell for is almost (but not quite) as irrelevant as what 8.5's sell for.

 

In regards to 9.2's, IMO, arguments can be made from both sides (as they are) as to which would sell for more today (a lot of which might vary depending on the attractiveness of a particular copy, sales venue, auction vs. fixed price, etc.)

 

 

The issue is "why is Cerebus #1 worth more than Hulk #181 in ANY grade???"

 

There have been a number of side discussions in this thread, but I believe that the key issue in this thread comes from the thread title, which states "Re: Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet?". I believe that this title was in reference to the top 10 keys lists in the OPG, which are based on the OPG values for NM-/9.2. At least that was my takeaway after reading the thread.

 

This is the problem people have, but as we see, Cerebus #1 is clearly more valuable in 9.4 AND ABOVE (if "above" existed for Cerebus #1.)

 

In 9.6 and 9.8, Cerebus #1 would blow Hulk #181 out of the water.

 

I believe that documented sales over the years support Cerebus 1 in 9.4 having a greater value, still today, than Hulk 181 in 9.4. Has anyone really disputed this in this thread? I don't dispute this.

 

If a Cerebus 1 were to grade 9.6, or 9.8, in the near term (as anything is possible in the long term; just look at Single Series 20), it would be a pretty safe assumption that it would sell for more than a Hulk 181 in 9.6 or 9.8. Has anyone really disputed this in this thread? I don't dispute this.

 

I know there's pretty close to a zero chance of it happening, but if a Cerebus 1 were to grade 9.9, in my opinion, it wouldn't exceed the value of a Hulk 181 in 9.9, unless CGC starts handing out 9.9's on Hulk 181's left and right. Given the rabid and sizeable fan base for Wolverine, it doesn't shock me that one devoted fan was willing to fork out $150K for the (currently) single highest graded copy of Hulk 181. Given the smaller fan base for Cerebus 1, I just don't see a Cerebus 1 in 9.9 selling for $150K+. Of course anything is possible as it only takes one die-hard Cerebus fan with the money to want it bad enough (if listed as fixed price, although it would take 2 such folks if at auction), and on the plus side it would hold a much greater chance of remaining the only graded 9.9 than Hulk 181. Do you think someone would fork out $150K+ for a 9.9 Cerebus 1?

 

OPG doesn't go beyond 9.2 That's the only reason it is based on the value in NM-. And arguments CAN'T be made from both sides...they can't be made from ANY side, because we only have a single sale from 2005.

 

Arguments can be made based on available data for sales in slightly higher and lower grades over the years. Will such arguments hold as much value as they would if one had more data? No, but for purposes of discussion, arguments can still be made. This is not to say that one side's argument won't be better than another's using the available data, but arguments can indeed be made from both sides.

 

Based on GPA, we don't know.

 

But here's the key: OPG doesn't just use GPA. Why everyone is hung up on GPA as it relates to OPG is anyone's guess. GPA and slabbed sales on simply one avenue that OPG uses.

 

If GPA and other limited data sources is all that one has available, then that is all that one can reference for purposes of discussion. While GPA may not provide as much data as the OPG has access to, it can still be useful to formulate an opinion and to support one's argument. Also, by referencing known sales prices in a thread like this one, it gives others in the know the chance to speak up and opine about other pertinent sales that they're aware of (raw or graded) that don't appear in GPA (such as is the case in the Hulk #1, and AF #15 threads in the silver forum where Gator regularly mentions some of his recent sales that have exceeded those shown in GPA).

 

I think that everyone understands that for some books in some grades, OPG will have access to raw and graded sales prices beyond the CGC graded sales from select venues that are captured by GPA (or at least they should know this).

 

That said, in the case of Cerebus 1 in NM-/9.2, I highly doubt that Bob has received sales data every year since 2005 for sales of Cerebus 1 in NM-/9.2, but instead for at least some of the years between 2005 and current, I would have to imagine that he simply uses some formula based on observed prices in other grades as compared to the prior year, etc., in order to adjust the price up or down slightly.

 

The bottom line is simple: people who are hyperfans of Wolverine are offended that a book they think is mess is worth more.

 

That's what this entire thread has been about. That's it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Any national dealer on this board, if given a chance, would buy a Cerebus #1 CGC 9.4 over a Hulk #181 CGC 9.4 - if offered only one or the other - for $500.

 

End of story.

 

Because, thus far, they've seen, they will make MORE MONEY off the book -MEANING that in HIGH GRADE it is more VALUABLE to them.

 

Hence, it's more VALUABLE in HG as reflected in the OSPG, a guide for people who SELL comics.

 

See jaydog, you look at GPA as a novice and a fan would... As what HAS happened. A professional comic book dealer looks at it as what MAY happened, combined with what they HEAR every DAY from people who buy HG books, combined with a decades old knowledge of the marketplace.

 

Real world application vs I fell in love with Wolverine as a boy.

 

You lose.

 

 

Hi Chuck, I notice that you keep making the same point above in regards to 9.4 graded copies. However, since Overstreet's top 10 list is based on value in NM-, what 9.4's sell for is almost (but not quite) as irrelevant as what 8.5's sell for.

 

In regards to 9.2's, IMO, arguments can be made from both sides (as they are) as to which would sell for more today (a lot of which might vary depending on the attractiveness of a particular copy, sales venue, auction vs. fixed price, etc.)

 

 

The issue is "why is Cerebus #1 worth more than Hulk #181 in ANY grade???"

 

There have been a number of side discussions in this thread, but I believe that the key issue in this thread comes from the thread title, which states "Re: Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet?". I believe that this title was in reference to the top 10 keys lists in the OPG, which are based on the OPG values for NM-/9.2. At least that was my takeaway after reading the thread.

 

I can't tell...are you disputing or agreeing with what I said? Yes, that's the premise for this thread, but the UNDERLYING issue is the offense that some feel that Cerebus #1 is worth more than Hulk #181, in any grade, for any reason.

 

That's the entire thread in a nutshell.

 

And the answer, of course, is "Yes. Really."

 

This is the problem people have, but as we see, Cerebus #1 is clearly more valuable in 9.4 AND ABOVE (if "above" existed for Cerebus #1.)

 

In 9.6 and 9.8, Cerebus #1 would blow Hulk #181 out of the water.

 

I believe that documented sales over the years support Cerebus 1 in 9.4 having a greater value, still today, than Hulk 181 in 9.4. Has anyone really disputed this in this thread? I don't dispute this.

 

If a Cerebus 1 were to grade 9.6, or 9.8, in the near term (as anything is possible in the long term; just look at Single Series 20), it would be a pretty safe assumption that it would sell for more than a Hulk 181 in 9.6 or 9.8. Has anyone really disputed this in this thread? I don't dispute this.

 

I know there's pretty close to a zero chance of it happening, but if a Cerebus 1 were to grade 9.9, in my opinion, it wouldn't exceed the value of a Hulk 181 in 9.9, unless CGC starts handing out 9.9's on Hulk 181's left and right. Given the rabid and sizeable fan base for Wolverine, it doesn't shock me that one devoted fan was willing to fork out $150K for the (currently) single highest graded copy of Hulk 181. Given the smaller fan base for Cerebus 1, I just don't see a Cerebus 1 in 9.9 selling for $150K+. Of course anything is possible as it only takes one die-hard Cerebus fan with the money to want it bad enough (if listed as fixed price, although it would take 2 such folks if at auction), and on the plus side it would hold a much greater chance of remaining the only graded 9.9 than Hulk 181. Do you think someone would fork out $150K+ for a 9.9 Cerebus 1?

 

It's beyond silly to discuss What Ifs regarding 9.9s. 9.9s and 10s are freak grades, and DO NOT FOLLOW ANY RULES. Therefore, any attempt at analysis which includes these grades will be wildly inaccurate, if not altogether worthless.

 

9.9s and 10s operate in their own universe, with their own rules.

 

And I have no problem stating that there's not a single potential 9.9 that exists, or has EVER existed, for Cerebus #1, while 9.6s and 9.8s remain in the realm of possible. Probable, no, but certainly possible.

 

OPG doesn't go beyond 9.2 That's the only reason it is based on the value in NM-. And arguments CAN'T be made from both sides...they can't be made from ANY side, because we only have a single sale from 2005.

 

Arguments can be made based on available data for sales in slightly higher and lower grades over the years. Will such arguments hold as much value as they would if one had more data? No, but for purposes of discussion, arguments can still be made. This is not to say that one side's argument won't be better than another's using the available data, but arguments can indeed be made from both sides.

 

Rare books have a completely different dynamic when it comes to sales, and don't operate like a book like Hulk #181, or Amazing Spiderman #14, or X-Men #94, etc. You CANNOT make arguments based on "surrounding grades", and you can BARELY make arguments in the SAME grade, because so few copies come to market.

 

Look at the FOUR GPA sales of C#1 in 9.4. You have THREE sig series sales (which, too, operate under different rules) that all sold for substantially different amounts than the SINGLE Universal 9.4 sale from this year.

 

So, no, arguments regarding rare books can't be made in slightly higher or lower grades, especially when you have single digit sales over a long period of time. Sure, they CAN be made...but they hold essentially no weight.

 

The rules simply aren't the same for rare books. It doesn't work that way.

 

A SINGLE RECORDED SALE does NOT give weight to ANYONE'S argument.

 

Based on GPA, we don't know.

 

But here's the key: OPG doesn't just use GPA. Why everyone is hung up on GPA as it relates to OPG is anyone's guess. GPA and slabbed sales on simply one avenue that OPG uses.

 

If GPA and other limited data sources is all that one has available, then that is all that one can reference for purposes of discussion.

 

No one has disputed this.

 

While GPA may not provide as much data as the OPG has access to, it can still be useful to formulate an opinion and to support one's argument.

 

With a SINGLE SALE...? From 9 years ago?

 

Come on.

 

Also, by referencing known sales prices in a thread like this one, it gives others in the know the chance to speak up and opine about other pertinent sales that they're aware of (raw or graded) that don't appear in GPA (such as is the case in the Hulk #1, and AF #15 threads in the silver forum where Gator regularly mentions some of his recent sales that have exceeded those shown in GPA).

 

I think that everyone understands that for some books in some grades, OPG will have access to raw and graded sales prices beyond the CGC graded sales from select venues that are captured by GPA (or at least they should know this).

 

I don't think everyone understands that at ALL, or some of the arguments being made here would not be. And you're right, they should know this....and clearly don't (or, didn't, before this thread.)

 

That said, in the case of Cerebus 1 in NM-/9.2, I highly doubt that Bob has received sales data every year since 2005 for sales of Cerebus 1 in NM-/9.2, but instead for at least some of the years between 2005 and current, I would have to imagine that he simply uses some formula based on observed prices in other grades as compared to the prior year, etc., in order to adjust the price up or down slightly.

 

The bottom line is simple: people who are hyperfans of Wolverine are offended that a book they think is mess is worth more.

 

That's what this entire thread has been about. That's it.

 

Still true.

 

[rjrjr]

Now that I've seen the lists, do people that feel Cerebus 1 should be lower than IH 181 (or not on the list) also feel the Star Wars 1 ($0.35) at the top should be lower or removed? I'm guessing a Star Wars 1 ($0.35) in 9.2 doesn't come up for sale all that often either. More often than a Cerebus 1 in 9.2? Maybe, but it is also a rare book to find, with even less copies published than Cerebus 1.

 

Much of the Copper Age list is made up of some pretty hard to find books as well.

[Jaydogrules]

Now that I've seen the lists, do people that feel Cerebus 1 should be lower than IH 181 (or not on the list) also feel the Star Wars 1 ($0.35) at the top should be lower or removed? I'm guessing a Star Wars 1 ($0.35) in 9.2 doesn't come up for sale all that often either. More often than a Cerebus 1 in 9.2? Maybe, but it is also a rare book to find, with even less copies published than Cerebus 1.

 

Much of the Copper Age list is made up of some pretty hard to find books as well.

 

Having seen Over street's estimation of value for each book, I think he's spot on for the cerebus 1, but he is definitely too low for the hulk 181. Off by about 300 dollars for 2013. For that reason, the hulk 181 should be above the cerebus 1.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now that I've seen the lists, do people that feel Cerebus 1 should be lower than IH 181 (or not on the list) also feel the Star Wars 1 ($0.35) at the top should be lower or removed? I'm guessing a Star Wars 1 ($0.35) in 9.2 doesn't come up for sale all that often either. More often than a Cerebus 1 in 9.2? Maybe, but it is also a rare book to find, with even less copies published than Cerebus 1.

 

Much of the Copper Age list is made up of some pretty hard to find books as well.

 

The Copper list is woefully incomplete. Bob's still resisting the age.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Now that I've seen the lists, do people that feel Cerebus 1 should be lower than IH 181 (or not on the list) also feel the Star Wars 1 ($0.35) at the top should be lower or removed? I'm guessing a Star Wars 1 ($0.35) in 9.2 doesn't come up for sale all that often either. More often than a Cerebus 1 in 9.2? Maybe, but it is also a rare book to find, with even less copies published than Cerebus 1.

 

Much of the Copper Age list is made up of some pretty hard to find books as well.

 

Having seen Over street's estimation of value for each book, I think he's spot on for the cerebus 1, but he is definitely too low for the hulk 181. Off by about 300 dollars for 2013. For that reason, the hulk 181 should be above the cerebus 1.

 

-J.

 

Ok, now THIS...this is the right angle, coming at the OPG from a valuation standpoint, which IS totally disputable! Yay!

 

I think he's pretty spot on for a RAW (remember, OPG theoretically represents prices for ALL books, slabbed AND raw) Hulk #181, but it's a completely legitimate way to debate it.

 

I think you would have a hard time selling a raw 9.2 at $2,000 (I saw this price resistance at several shows this year, even with solid 9,2 copies), so it works out.

[HighStakesComics]

Now that I've seen the lists, do people that feel Cerebus 1 should be lower than IH 181 (or not on the list) also feel the Star Wars 1 ($0.35) at the top should be lower or removed? I'm guessing a Star Wars 1 ($0.35) in 9.2 doesn't come up for sale all that often either. More often than a Cerebus 1 in 9.2? Maybe, but it is also a rare book to find, with even less copies published than Cerebus 1.

 

Much of the Copper Age list is made up of some pretty hard to find books as well.

 

Nah, the Star Wars variant is the champ. It's worth 2X the #2 book on the list in 9.2, so arguing its dominance may be pointless.

 

Gobbledygook #1 vs Star Wars #1 $.35 may make for an interesting debate though.

[bronze johnny]

Gobbledygook 1 is the only key I know of that's an advertisement and not a 1st appearance. Amazing how some books don't apply to the rules.

[bronze johnny]

It's not even a cameo!

[HighStakesComics]

I know which one Id rather own, but note OPG gives GG a value $100 higher in 9.2

[Jaydogrules]

It's not even a cameo!

 

Three turtles related books on the list is overkill. And even raw copies of nm 98, asm 300 and ba 12 sell for more than a couple hundred dollars each. They are far more influential books than almost anything else on that list as well. This CA list does seem a bit of a throwaway list to Overstreet.

 

-J.