Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[rjrjr]

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Agreed about Star Wars 1 variant. It is the indisputable top valued comic of the BA.

 

Star Wars 1 had over 1 million copies printed (roughly 4 times Amazing Spider-Man) across the various prints. (So, not quite 10 for everyone in NA ) It is a common book, for sure, but like NM 98, ASM 300, etc. for a book with such a large print run, Star Wars 1 has demand. It has been slowly rising in price for the past couple of years now. You know a book is in demand when it routinely sells for guide or more.

 

Couple of points...

 

First, New Mutants #98 had a print run of about 250-300k, while Spidey #300 had a print run of about 450-500k (with surviving rates of about 175-200k and 250-300k, respectively.)

 

Second, Star Wars #1 is only worth money as a first print. There are oddball uber high grade reprints that are worth something, but it is the first prints that hold the value, and there weren't that many first prints printed...maybe 250,000, and while they were saved in far greater numbers than, say, Amazing Spiderman #168, they were also read to death, and are not especially common in high grade (first prints, that is.)

 

Somewhere along the line, this discussion went from the top valued comic of the BA to the top most important superhero character of the BA. It's like trying to kick a field goal into a moving goal post.

 

Yeah, that's what happened, despite concerted efforts to keep focused.

 

 

Not that I want to dispute you, but there are a lots of high grade 1st print Star Wars comics. Just the CGC census alone shows this:

 

9.8 232

9.6 710

9.4 689

9.2 376

 

That is 2007 copies that have been CGC graded in the NM category. At any given time, there are 10-20 raw copies (1st print) in high grade on eBay with 5-10 of the CGC graded books listed. When you go to shows, it is not hard to find Star Wars 1 in high grade either. This comic is about as common in high grade as you'll get for the BA. Much more common than most BA books I imagine.

 

Here is the NM categories for Incredible Hulk 181:

 

9.9 1

9.8 79

9.6 232

9.4 330

9.2 443

 

That is 1085 copies or almost half the Star Wars 1. And you have to admit, there is more of an incentive to get the Incredible Hulk 181 grade over Star Wars 1 because of the value.

 

You are correct about there not being over a million 1st prints of Star Wars 1. When you see that number, I believe in addition to the 6 different printings of Star Wars 1, it also includes the paperback and treasuries.

Edited September 3, 2014 by rjrjr

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately.

 

And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been.

 

 

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower.

[AlexanderM]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately.

 

And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been.

 

 

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower.

 

That is a bit like saying "the western medical scientists in their surveys and experiments only use as subjects a tiny fraction of the people in the world. I think it's better to rely on some of the most respected medicine men in our great tribes. Their joint experiences are vast".

 

Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices?

[RockMyAmadeus]

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history. I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point. You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

Perhaps you should reconsider what you say, and why you say it.

 

You are getting the same reaction from different sources, BJ. Perhaps it's time for some self-analysis?

 

You are incorrect about pedigrees as selling points. You are incorrect about pedigrees as selling points for their entire history.

 

The people buying Church copies could not care less about Chuck's story, and Edgar's story, and I doubt most of them could even recount anything but the most major details.

 

The reason the Church copies became THE Church copies was because, in the late 70's, these high grade copies of these books simply didn't exist on the market. Many, many, many collectors had to content themselves with VG copies, *at best*, if they could find a copy at all. When the books were brought to market by Chuck, it was a feeding frenzy, because here were copies that hadn't seen the light of day in 30-40 years, and were magnificent. Absolutely magnificent.

 

But these buyers didn't care why they were magnificent, or how they got that way. They simply cared that they WERE magnificent, and THAT was the function of a "pedigree" prior to the advent of CGC.

 

Customers purchase Church copies because they are some of the highest, if not THE highest, graded Golden Age books that exist. The history is not relevant to these buyers. The NAME is important. But the story BEHIND the name...?

 

They don't really care.

 

SOME buyers, of course. Most buyers? No. They want the name, and they want the grade. And that's where their interest ends.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately.

 

And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been.

 

 

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower.

 

That is a bit like saying "the western medical scientists in their surveys and experiments only use as subjects a tiny fraction of the people in the world. I think it's better to rely on some of the most respected medicine men in our great tribes. Their joint experiences are vast".

 

Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices?

 

It's nothing like saying that. Your analogy doesn't work at all. It is a completely illogical comparison.

 

I have asked this question multiple times, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference: where do you think the OPG got its prices prior to CGC and GPA...?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

 

Umm...that'd be the real world.

 

RMA's dead-on here. CGC has _vastly_ reduced the appeal of pedigrees, as we now have a credible 3rd-party grading system that can tell you whether a normal, non-pedigree book is of a higher grade (and, via GPA, more valuable) than lesser-graded pedigree books.

 

_Many_ collectors want the best-available copies, and would take a non-pedigree 9.8 over a pedigree 9.4 or 9.6.

 

Further, all pedigrees are not created equal, and only a few (probably ~1/3) still carry significant premiums (Church, Allentown, White Mountain among them).

 

I've even heard as much, in person, from CGC reps themselves -- Twin Cities books? Yes - but Savannah, or even Crippen? Not so much.

 

Even Gaines File Copies have normalized somewhat, with higher-graded non-Pedigree copies of some books going for more than the lesser-pedigree counterparts.

 

There's a premium on the pedigrees, Gatsby. RMA is right, CGC levels the playing field, however, one of the weaker pedigrees will still outperform an identical book in grade and pq. Not by the Chuck Rowzanski 200-300%, but by 10-30%.

 

And if I show you examples that disprove that, what do you say then...?

 

 

In the case of the DC 100 Page 5 I wouldn't expect a 9.2 to outperform the Savannah copies. I believe based on recent comps and the long term downtrend the #5 in 9.2 could potentially breach $750 at auction.

 

Why do you keep repeating things that have already been refuted?

 

Four sales in 10 years is NOT a *trend.*

 

But do you have a DC 100 Page #5 in 9.2 for sale? If so, I'll pay you $750 for it right now.

 

Even if you use the average pedigree sale price of $1000 there's still a couple of books that fetch more than that whom don't appear on the list. I know some of you guys are romantics, but you cannot hide from the truth.

The truth will always prosper.

 

You are talking about TWO SALES, from 2011.

 

How many times, and in how many ways, does this need to be repeated? OPG does not use just GPA data to formulate its values. GPA is only ONE resource that OPG may (or may not) use.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Are you saying that when I ask Bob from High Grade Comics (highgradecomics.com) or Dale from Dale Roberts Comics (www.dalerobertscomics.com) or Richard from (www.bedrockcity.com) or Greg from (www.gregreececomics.com) or Brad from (www.sharpcomics.com) or Roy from (vintagecomics.com) or Dan from (http://www.flyingdonut.com) that they are LYING to me?

That the information they are giving me is incorrect?

 

No offense to GPA, as I use it, subscribe to it, support it - but it's just a web site with some limited information on it.

 

I prefer to use multiple sources for my information as +90% of most sales of comic books are raw.

 

Of course I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that we have no reason to believe that the publicly reported sales are not at least reasonably representative of whatever a dealer is doing privately.

 

That's the point of GPA- so that we don't have to just go by what a dealer says alone.

 

-J.

 

It depends entirely on the context being discussed.

 

If the book is routinely sold, then YES, GPA paints a pretty accurate picture.

 

If the book is very rarely sold, then NO, GPA doesn't paint that picture.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Agreed about Star Wars 1 variant. It is the indisputable top valued comic of the BA.

 

Star Wars 1 had over 1 million copies printed (roughly 4 times Amazing Spider-Man) across the various prints. (So, not quite 10 for everyone in NA ) It is a common book, for sure, but like NM 98, ASM 300, etc. for a book with such a large print run, Star Wars 1 has demand. It has been slowly rising in price for the past couple of years now. You know a book is in demand when it routinely sells for guide or more.

 

Couple of points...

 

First, New Mutants #98 had a print run of about 250-300k, while Spidey #300 had a print run of about 450-500k (with surviving rates of about 175-200k and 250-300k, respectively.)

 

Second, Star Wars #1 is only worth money as a first print. There are oddball uber high grade reprints that are worth something, but it is the first prints that hold the value, and there weren't that many first prints printed...maybe 250,000, and while they were saved in far greater numbers than, say, Amazing Spiderman #168, they were also read to death, and are not especially common in high grade (first prints, that is.)

 

Somewhere along the line, this discussion went from the top valued comic of the BA to the top most important superhero character of the BA. It's like trying to kick a field goal into a moving goal post.

 

Yeah, that's what happened, despite concerted efforts to keep focused.

 

 

Not that I want to dispute you, but there are a lots of high grade 1st print Star Wars comics. Just the CGC census alone shows this:

 

9.8 232

9.6 710

9.4 689

9.2 376

 

You're not disputing anything I said.

 

But how many are "lots"? Those copies represent less than 1% of the copies printed.

 

232 9.8s isn't a huge number for this book. Wolverine #1 has 1630 9.8s, nearly 8 times as many as SW #1, and it's only five years younger.

 

We'll have to disagree on what constitutes "lots."

 

That is 2007 copies that have been CGC graded in the NM category. At any given time, there are 10-20 raw copies (1st print) in high grade on eBay with 5-10 of the CGC graded books listed. When you go to shows, it is not hard to find Star Wars 1 in high grade either. This comic is about as common in high grade as you'll get for the BA. Much more common than most BA books I imagine.

 

Here is the NM categories for Incredible Hulk 181:

 

9.9 1

9.8 79

9.6 232

9.4 330

9.2 443

 

That is 1085 copies or almost half the Star Wars 1. And you have to admit, there is more of an incentive to get the Incredible Hulk 181 grade over Star Wars 1 because of the value.

 

But this is a bad comparison.

 

Star Wars was instantly popular. It was the very first mainstream comic book in history that was immediately reprinted in the same format because of demand. People saved them, and they saved them in high grade, and they saved them in low grade, and in every grade in between.

 

Hulk #181, on the other hand, was ignored for 3-4 years after it came out, so it was naturally subject to more attrition. It also didn't become a back issue juggernaut until the 80's.

 

Plus...those 2.5 years difference were some of the most important in the history of comics, and the way people collected was evolving.

[rjrjr]

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Agreed about Star Wars 1 variant. It is the indisputable top valued comic of the BA.

 

Star Wars 1 had over 1 million copies printed (roughly 4 times Amazing Spider-Man) across the various prints. (So, not quite 10 for everyone in NA ) It is a common book, for sure, but like NM 98, ASM 300, etc. for a book with such a large print run, Star Wars 1 has demand. It has been slowly rising in price for the past couple of years now. You know a book is in demand when it routinely sells for guide or more.

 

Couple of points...

 

First, New Mutants #98 had a print run of about 250-300k, while Spidey #300 had a print run of about 450-500k (with surviving rates of about 175-200k and 250-300k, respectively.)

 

Second, Star Wars #1 is only worth money as a first print. There are oddball uber high grade reprints that are worth something, but it is the first prints that hold the value, and there weren't that many first prints printed...maybe 250,000, and while they were saved in far greater numbers than, say, Amazing Spiderman #168, they were also read to death, and are not especially common in high grade (first prints, that is.)

 

Somewhere along the line, this discussion went from the top valued comic of the BA to the top most important superhero character of the BA. It's like trying to kick a field goal into a moving goal post.

 

Yeah, that's what happened, despite concerted efforts to keep focused.

 

 

Not that I want to dispute you, but there are a lots of high grade 1st print Star Wars comics. Just the CGC census alone shows this:

 

9.8 232

9.6 710

9.4 689

9.2 376

 

You're not disputing anything I said.

 

But how many are "lots"? Those copies represent less than 1% of the copies printed.

 

232 9.8s isn't a huge number for this book. Wolverine #1 has 1630 9.8s, nearly 8 times as many as SW #1, and it's only five years younger.

 

We'll have to disagree on what constitutes "lots."

 

That is 2007 copies that have been CGC graded in the NM category. At any given time, there are 10-20 raw copies (1st print) in high grade on eBay with 5-10 of the CGC graded books listed. When you go to shows, it is not hard to find Star Wars 1 in high grade either. This comic is about as common in high grade as you'll get for the BA. Much more common than most BA books I imagine.

 

Here is the NM categories for Incredible Hulk 181:

 

9.9 1

9.8 79

9.6 232

9.4 330

9.2 443

 

That is 1085 copies or almost half the Star Wars 1. And you have to admit, there is more of an incentive to get the Incredible Hulk 181 grade over Star Wars 1 because of the value.

 

But this is a bad comparison.

 

Star Wars was instantly popular. It was the very first mainstream comic book in history that was immediately reprinted in the same format because of demand. People saved them, and they saved them in high grade, and they saved them in low grade, and in every grade in between.

 

Hulk #181, on the other hand, was ignored for 3-4 years after it came out, so it was naturally subject to more attrition. It also didn't become a back issue juggernaut until the 80's.

 

Plus...those 2.5 years difference were some of the most important in the history of comics, and the way people collected was evolving.

 

You did say Star Wars 1 1st prints are not especially common in high grade. I'm not entirely sure if you believe that or not after this posting.

Edited September 3, 2014 by rjrjr

[Ryan.]

These endless quote nests are brutal to work through.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

You did say Star Wars 1 1st prints are not especially common in high grade. I'm not entirely sure if you believe that or not after this posting.

 

I still do.

 

232 9.8s isn't all that common on the most popular, highest selling book of 1977.

 

We can disagree on what common means.

 

There are, for example, 170 9.8 X-Men #121s, only 62 fewer copies than Star Wars #1.

[rjrjr]

 

You did say Star Wars 1 1st prints are not especially common in high grade. I'm not entirely sure if you believe that or not after this posting.

 

I still do.

 

232 9.8s isn't all that common on the most popular, highest selling book of 1977.

 

We can disagree on what common means.

 

There are, for example, 170 9.8 X-Men #121s, only 62 fewer copies than Star Wars #1.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. I think Star Wars 1 in high grade is a common BA comic.

[AlexanderM]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

You have that wrong. The VAST MAJORITY of the sales are the ones that are happening privately.

 

And who is "we"? You have more than one person posting with you? If not, you should probably let everyone else speak for themselves, like they have been.

 

 

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Oh, they count. They count about as much as the small percentage of the market that they actually are. Like individual raindrops in a spring shower.

 

That is a bit like saying "the western medical scientists in their surveys and experiments only use as subjects a tiny fraction of the people in the world. I think it's better to rely on some of the most respected medicine men in our great tribes. Their joint experiences are vast".

 

Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices?

 

It's nothing like saying that. Your analogy doesn't work at all. It is a completely illogical comparison.

 

I have asked this question multiple times, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference: where do you think the OPG got its prices prior to CGC and GPA...?

 

 

The question is why should we care where the information comes from? OPG is notoriously imprecise.

 

It is an antiquated approach (I must say I like OPG for the articles and nostalgia..but have no illusions that the prices are at all precise) to pricing comics.

 

Btw. You keep repeating the words logical and illogical as if you feel superior in terms of logical thinking. I cannot see any reason why you should think so? Is it that a few people clap when you say stuff that is in their best interest that made you think that? Or maybe you have any more objective credentials? A PhD? Member of Mensa?

Edited September 3, 2014 by AlexanderM

[Dale Roberts]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Are you saying that when I ask Bob from High Grade Comics (highgradecomics.com) or Dale from Dale Roberts Comics (www.dalerobertscomics.com) or Richard from (www.bedrockcity.com) or Greg from (www.gregreececomics.com) or Brad from (www.sharpcomics.com) or Roy from (vintagecomics.com) or Dan from (http://www.flyingdonut.com) that they are LYING to me?

That the information they are giving me is incorrect?

 

No offense to GPA, as I use it, subscribe to it, support it - but it's just a web site with some limited information on it.

 

I prefer to use multiple sources for my information as +90% of most sales of comic books are raw.

 

Of course I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that we have no reason to believe that the publicly reported sales are not at least reasonably representative of whatever a dealer is doing privately.

 

That's the point of GPA- so that we don't have to just go by what a dealer says alone.

 

-J.

 

It depends entirely on the context being discussed.

 

If the book is routinely sold, then YES, GPA paints a pretty accurate picture.

 

If the book is very rarely sold, then NO, GPA doesn't paint that picture.

 

RMA is the voice of reason. Who'da thunk?

 

And yes, he is right.

 

However, there are other things that help paint the picture. Registration, centering, page quality and eye appeal have a dramatic impact on what you can actually get for a book.

 

Edited September 3, 2014 by Dale Roberts

[bronze johnny]

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

 

1. Yes.

 

2. No.

 

3. And this one.

 

My question for you is: when will you be able to disagree about things, and discuss things, without being insulting? If you disagree with me, clearly and reasonably state why, without the snide commentary. Is that really that hard?

 

Sorry if you took my answer as insulting. Not meant that way. One question I would ask is would you buy an 8.0 Church Copy or a 9.2 copy of the same book? I know which one I would buy.

[chrisco37]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

[Dale Roberts]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

[Jaydogrules]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

[Prince Namor]

The question is why should we care where the information comes from?

 

Right.

A computer program that collects data from a tiny FRACTION of the market sales of a particular brand of comic that makes up a TINY fraction of comic sales (slabs) vs a book that collects data from MULTIPLE sources of Raw Sales (which make up the VAST majority of comic sales) and has been doing so for 44 years....ok.

 

That's why you should care.

 

OPG is notoriously imprecise.

 

Oh god, the irony.

 

Yes, the OSPG isn't perfect.

 

But you're helping prove WHY GPA isn't perfect either.

 

Trying to show a pricing TREND, using two points of sales data in three years is notoriously imprecise.

 

It is an antiquated approach (I must say I like OPG for the articles and nostalgia..but have no illusions that the prices are at all precise) to pricing comics.

 

What are you talking about. This isn't about you.

 

The majority of all comic book dealers use OSPG daily to assist in pricing comics. DAILY.

 

Regardless of what you or I THINK, it's STILL used DAILY by the vast majority of comic book dealers.

 

And GPA isn't precise either.

Just because it says a book sold for 'x' amount, it doesn't mean it's going to sell for 'x' amount next time.

 

It's a guide... a tool to be used to accumulate information.

 

The MORE information that it has, the more accurately you can determine how you want to use that information.

 

Sort of like... OSPG!

 

It's a GUIDE... a tool that accumulates information.

 

But it accumulates information from a much LARGER pool than GPA does.

 

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Surely we don't really think anecdotes and stories from 'respected medicine men..ups. . dealers) are a better proof of sales prices?

 

Wow...