Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87 3 3

[Prince Namor]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

 

There is little to no sales data on one of these books. I know exactly what the other one sells for because I have sold multiples this year (and actually none on line). And I didn't say I didn't know what I would price one. I simply didn't state what I would price it. There is a difference.

 

 

 

 

You stated your pricing of a cerebus 1 would be more "trial and error", which I interpret as meaning you would not really know how to price it.

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums that you can definitively say what they are "worth" on an annual basis), and a Hulk 181, 9.2....

 

....put them both on your wall for $3k at the same time and see which one you actually sell first, and closest to that price.

 

Wolvie would win, and you know he would. You'd be staring at that cerebus for months, having to explain to most younger and/or casual collectors why the book is "important", justifying its price tag, waiting for that one niche collector to wander in and then haggle you down on your price. Meanwhile everyone and their mother of every generation will automatically know what that Hulk 181 is, and exactly why it has the price tag it does on it. The book would probably sell in two weeks or less.

 

 

 

-J.

 

 

 

You're confused. To start with, I am not going to price a Hulk #181 9.2 at 3K, unless it is a major upgrade candidate, and then I would probably just bust it out and do it myself. Its not worth that. You can go to any major comic show and find 5 - 10 in the room.

 

On the other hand, there are 6 Cerebus #1s in 9.0 or above all together. I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it. And there currently is no 9.2, but since a 9.0 has sold for $2500, I would have to believe a 9.2 would sell for more than 3K.

 

We've been telling him these kinds of things for a week now.

 

Oh and AlexanderM thinks you national dealers are all a bunch of 'medicine men'.

[Garlanda]

Yes, I don't think you understood it. Maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

 

This is how market value is usually calculated in financial markets. Take for example the New York stock exchange... the market value of any company there... is the value of each share times the numbers of shares.

 

Right?

 

Similarly, the total market value of a comic book (the total amount of money the combined comic collectors have in terms of value of the issue) is the number of books in exsistence times the price per book.

 

If you are still with me, I am sure you can see that the value put on H181 by the entire market is many many many times the value of Cerebus,

 

Even if we take a simplistic notion of value as the value for one book in one grade - then there are only one or two grades where Cerebus is even close.

 

So in order for Cerebus to be more 'valuable' we would have to not look at the value in the total market, not look at the value in grade 8.0, 6.5 and so on...

 

We can only look at one understanding of value and even within this understanding we can only look at a little fraction of the grades.

 

Such selectivity makes the notion that Cerebus should be "more valuable than H181" hard to take seriously.

 

OH.

 

I see. I now understand your position much more clearly, but I'm afraid we may be at an impasse. From my perspective, I cannot conceive of "collectibles" as having value in that way. Comics are not shares or stocks, because there are maximum numbers of all comics. There cannot be more of them once they've gone to press, but there can be fewer of them. Shares can be continually issued, stocks split, etc. With comics, rarity can be a premium.

 

Since I'm not as familiar with the financial market, let me posit this scenario and you can tell me if I'm on the right track. I added up all the sales recorded in GPA for Hulk #181 in unrestored 9.6 and 9.8 from 2013 and got $276,924. I then added up all the sales recorded in GPA for Avengers #4 in unrestored 9.6 and 9.8 from 2013 (exact same parameters) and got $203,020. So I agree that Hulk #181 generated more revenue in the marketplace, but I still do not agree that it's more "valuable" than Avengers #4 just because it came up for sale so many more times.

[Prince Namor]

I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it.

 

Remind me again why you think it has a higher FMV than a Hulk 181? Because you "know a guy" who would buy one now if you had one? Is this the kind of dealer data I'm supposed to take as being more reliable than GPA? Not to sound too sarcastic here, but come on guys.

-J.

 

It's so weird.

 

The MAJORITY of SALES of Comic books are from exactly the type of transactions Dale is talking about, yet you dismiss this information outright.

 

GPA reflects a SMALL sample of the market from a SMALL sample of books, and you treat it as if it's the gospel.

[AlexanderM]

Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices.

 

However, this mechanism is not at play here.

 

Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus.

 

So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181".

 

Please open your 2014 OPG, or turn back to page 58 of this train wreck, and note that the difference in price is only $100, which is less than 5% of the overall value of each. Last year, Hulk #181 was $100 over Cerebus #1, and this year Cerebus #1 was $100 over Hulk #181. Both increased, but Cerebus #1 increased a bit more, in this particular timeframe, in this particular grade.

 

I don't think I understand your explanation of market value above, "the price for each book sold times the number of books sold," but it seems like you agree with what Chuck Gower, RMA, and others have been saying:

 

So only in a very very specific (selling price in US dollars on average throughout the year 2013 in NM-/9.2 condition) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Yes, I don't think you understood it. Maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

 

This is how market value is usually calculated in financial markets. Take for example the New York stock exchange... the market value of any company there... is the value of each share times the numbers of shares.

 

Right?

 

Similarly, the total market value of a comic book (the total amount of money the combined comic collectors have in terms of value of the issue) is the number of books in exsistence times the price per book.

 

If you are still with me, I am sure you can see that the value put on H181 by the entire market is many many many times the value of Cerebus,

 

Even if we take a simplistic notion of value as the value for one book in one grade - then there are only one or two grades where Cerebus is even close.

 

So in order for Cerebus to be more 'valuable' we would have to not look at the value in the total market, not look at the value in grade 8.0, 6.5 and so on...

 

We can only look at one understanding of value and even within this understanding we can only look at a little fraction of the grades.

 

Such selectivity makes the notion that Cerebus should be "more valuable than H181" hard to take seriously.

 

Market capitalization, Alex. That is the terminology you are looking for.

 

That is the same thing.

 

I work with this every day so maybe I take it for granted that people know.

 

Give me a sec:

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Market-Value-of-a-Company

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/market+value

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Let me assure you, no offense, that I feel Jay's posts have generally been more logical than yours. And I obviously don't think you are more logical than me.

 

That you believe that, I have no doubt. You both reason from emotion, and like attracts like. Many of Jay's posts are classic examples of "arguing from emotion", yet you feel (note that word, there) that they have been "more logical."

 

But be assured: logic and reason are not subject to personal opinion. They simply are. Your very words give you away: I don't need to say, as you have done here, that I think so and so is more logical than you, and you are not as logical as me, because logic stands on its own. And why would I be offended? Offense is the very calling card of emotionalism.

 

No one is inherently "more logical" than another, because logic is not an attribute, like intelligence or talent or height, etc. It is a tool. And just like any other tool, it can be used, and misused, but it is not a part of the person using (or misusing) it. A person must be TRAINED to use any tool correctly, and logic and reason are no different.

 

You keep mentioning 'logical' I don't know how many times in this thread...so I'm guessing you think you are more logical, I certainly don't.

 

That is, again, because you reason by emotion, rather than by logic.

 

If you made multiple spelling and grammar errors, and I corrected those errors, would that lead you to think that I feel I am "more grammatical" than you? Despite the evidence in front of everyone's eyes that you had misspelled and misused grammar...?

 

Logically, no. Emotionally, yes.

 

That you repeat I argue using emotion doesn't make it so.

 

That is correct. Repeating something merely makes it propaganda.

 

The actual question, then, is whether or not the argument I have laid out, and the evidence I have presented, make it so.

 

That's where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

 

In fact, it is so far out I didn't think it worthy of a reply. But just so you have no illusions that I agree with you I'll let you know that I don't.

 

And you little grammar example is far off the mark and irrelevant. I did not feel or think you were being logical... I merely noticed you use the word 'logical' a lot despite not being very logical. So it stood out.

 

Again...we can let the evidence and weight of the arguments presented speak for themselves.

 

By the way...just by way of explanation, when someone uses a dismissive...in this case, "you (sic) little grammar example" (and a fairly ironic example itself)...the word "little" being the phrase here...it conveys a tone of annoyance and irritation.

 

"Your little comment there was quite amusing."

 

It's meant to dismiss, and diminish, the other person and their comments.

 

So, by the way, is the statement "I didn't think it worthy of a reply"...and then making one anyways.

 

It's an attempt to diminish the other person, and speaks of irritation on the part of the poster. Mind you, I've done it a ton, myself. We all have.

 

But it is a smoking gun for emotion overcoming reason, as all such little digs are.

 

Something to keep in mind.

 

You are grasping at straws. Little was descriptive. It was a little example - wasn't it?

 

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with that one. I doubt your veracity in the matter, but it may be a cultural thing. Suffice it to say...in the US, when "your" is followed by "little", it is almost always meant as diminishment.

 

"Oh, look, your little friends are here."

 

"Your little tirade is boring me"

 

"You and your little mind games are getting old."

 

"Your little analogy fails."

 

"Your little hobby is taking up too much space in this house."

 

Just FYI.

 

 

Not all things are worthy of replies. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Absolutely.

 

But it's not the concept, it's the statement that is the issue. That may be a bit oblique, but hopefully you appreciate the difference.

 

and can you not make such judgment very objectively. If I tell you my car is red 20 times and 1 minute later you ask me what color it is... then I might conclude that your question is not a real question or for whatever other reason does not merit an answer. You don't need to see emotion in everything like you tend to do.

 

I understand that's how you feel. However, like I said, we'll simply have to let the evidence speak for itself.

 

[Jaydogrules]

I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it.

 

Remind me again why you think it has a higher FMV than a Hulk 181? Because you "know a guy" who would buy one now if you had one? Is this the kind of dealer data I'm supposed to take as being more reliable than GPA? Not to sound too sarcastic here, but come on guys.

-J.

 

It's so weird.

 

The MAJORITY of SALES of Comic books are from exactly the type of transactions Dale is talking about, yet you dismiss this information outright.

 

GPA reflects a SMALL sample of the market from a SMALL sample of books, and you treat it as if it's the gospel.

 

That may be but it is an antiquated and unreliable way of collecting and compiling and reporting data in the information age. Thus the advent of GPA and other data sources of its ilk.

 

-J.

[AlexanderM]

I'm off to bed. Late here in the first continent

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums..)

 

Alexander...

 

This is a perfect example of an unreasonable statement. How?

 

Because no one has said anything even remotely like what Jaydog is characterizing here.

 

It is petulant hyperbole borne out of emotion (mostly frustration.)

 

It's not reasonable to make this statement in the context of this discussion.

 

And yet....here it is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

 

There is little to no sales data on one of these books. I know exactly what the other one sells for because I have sold multiples this year (and actually none on line). And I didn't say I didn't know what I would price one. I simply didn't state what I would price it. There is a difference.

 

 

 

 

You stated your pricing of a cerebus 1 would be more "trial and error", which I interpret as meaning you would not really know how to price it.

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums and you can definitively say what they are "worth" on an annual basis), and a Hulk 181, 9.2....

 

....put them both on your wall for $3k at the same time and see which one you actually sell first, and closest to that price.

 

Wolvie would win, and you know he would. You'd be staring at that cerebus for months, having to explain to most younger and/or casual collectors why the book is "important", justifying its price tag, waiting for that one niche collector to wander in and then haggle you down on your price. Meanwhile everyone and their mother of every generation will automatically know what that Hulk 181 is, and exactly why it has the price tag it does on it. The book would probably sell in two weeks or less.

 

 

 

-J.

 

 

 

This is a completely unreasonable argument, that vastly overstates the popularity and demand of Hulk #181 in 9.2, a vastly understates the popularity and demand of Cerebus #1 in 9.2.

 

And, sadly, fairly unprovable, as the number of Cerebus #1s in 9.2 can be counted on one hand, so the odds of one "coming up for sale" are pretty slim.

 

So...

 

However, if I get my hands on a Cerebus #1 9.2, I'll make sure I also get my hands on a fugly Hulk #181 9.2, with poor page quality, bad wrap, and no eye appeal, and take you up on your challenge.

 

After all...aren't all 9.2s the same...?

 

[Garlanda]

Market capitalization, Alex. That is the terminology you are looking for.

 

That is the same thing.

 

I work with this every day so maybe I take it for granted that people know.

 

Give me a sec:

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Market-Value-of-a-Company

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/market+value

 

So I think I found two companies to illustrate the difference in our two perspectives: Apple and Lockheed Martin.

 

Apple has 5.99 billion shares of stock out there in the world, and each one seems to be worth about $98.94 today.

 

Lockheed Martin has 315 million shares of stock out there, and each one seems to be worth about $173.50 today.

 

Market capitalization says that Apple is by far the more valuable company because it has so many more shares of stock, but the more valuable stock is Lockheed Martin.

 

The individual collector is less concerned with the collective value of all Hulk 181s (the company) than about each discrete copy (the stock).

 

Does this make sense? It's been a long day at work for me so I may be leaving out important bits.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I don't think anyone is discussing whether a couple of books (starwars, cerebus etc.) might be worth more in a grade or two.

 

What thread have you been reading? That is what this entire thread has bee about.

 

:shrug:

[Lazyboy]

I don't think anyone is discussing whether a couple of books (starwars, cerebus etc.) might be worth more in a grade or two. That is possible but in the larger scheme of things those are both relatively insignificant books. Many books could be worth far more if the print runs were just smaller.. that in itself is a technicality and says little about the appeal of the book.

 

So those are two different discussions.

 

Is Hulk 181 more valuable in most grades despite a much larger print run? Yes.

 

Is Cerebus perhaps more valuable in a grade or two? Not to most, but perhaps to a few people (but maybe enough to keep the price up given the small print run).

 

Is Hulk181 the more attractive book to far the majority or comics collectors? Yes, definitely. Many have probably never even heard of Cerebus.

 

Is Wolverine a top 10 Superhero of all time in terms of popularity? Yes.

 

Does Cerebus contain any character that can be seen as a top 10 character? No. Top 20? No. Top 30? No. Top 40? No... and so on.

 

Is the financing of Cerebus a neat little story? Yes.

 

What I just read is "if you ignore supply and demand, fundamentals of a market, the book I like is more valuable."

 

And why is it so important to you and jaydog that we acknowledge wolverine is a popular character?

 

Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices.

 

However, this mechanism is not at play here.

 

Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus.

 

So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181".

 

And you're complaining that other people aren't logical?

[Prince Namor]

I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it.

 

Remind me again why you think it has a higher FMV than a Hulk 181? Because you "know a guy" who would buy one now if you had one? Is this the kind of dealer data I'm supposed to take as being more reliable than GPA? Not to sound too sarcastic here, but come on guys.

-J.

 

It's so weird.

 

The MAJORITY of SALES of Comic books are from exactly the type of transactions Dale is talking about, yet you dismiss this information outright.

 

GPA reflects a SMALL sample of the market from a SMALL sample of books, and you treat it as if it's the gospel.

 

That may be but it is an antiquated and unreliable way of collecting and compiling and reporting data in the information age. Thus the advent of GPA and other data sources of its ilk.

 

-J.

 

Antiquated and unreliable to who?

 

You think there are national dealers out there who use GPA to make 100% of their pricing decisions? That's crazy.

 

But they still use OSPG every single day.

 

They understand, as you for some reason can't seem to, that: GPA reflects a SMALL portion of the sales of comics... heck a SMALL portion of comic sales from AUCTIONS.

 

And of that SMALL portion of comic sales, from a small portion of the way comics are sold (AUCTIONS), they are only focused on a SMALL, MINUTE portion of comic book sales: the slabbed ones.

 

And do we REALLY price things from GPA on a Bronze non-key slab that sold one copy in 6.5 in 2008? Is it so much more relevant that we can accept that as gospel word on price?

 

Sounds unreliable to me.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices.

 

However, this mechanism is not at play here.

 

Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus.

 

So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181".

 

Please open your 2014 OPG, or turn back to page 58 of this train wreck, and note that the difference in price is only $100, which is less than 5% of the overall value of each. Last year, Hulk #181 was $100 over Cerebus #1, and this year Cerebus #1 was $100 over Hulk #181. Both increased, but Cerebus #1 increased a bit more, in this particular timeframe, in this particular grade.

 

I don't think I understand your explanation of market value above, "the price for each book sold times the number of books sold," but it seems like you agree with what Chuck Gower, RMA, and others have been saying:

 

So only in a very very specific (selling price in US dollars on average throughout the year 2013 in NM-/9.2 condition) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Yes, I don't think you understood it. Maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

 

This is how market value is usually calculated in financial markets. Take for example the New York stock exchange... the market value of any company there... is the value of each share times the numbers of shares.

 

Right?

 

Similarly, the total market value of a comic book (the total amount of money the combined comic collectors have in terms of value of the issue) is the number of books in exsistence times the price per book.

 

If you are still with me, I am sure you can see that the value put on H181 by the entire market is many many many times the value of Cerebus,

 

Even if we take a simplistic notion of value as the value for one book in one grade - then there are only one or two grades where Cerebus is even close.

 

So in order for Cerebus to be more 'valuable' we would have to not look at the value in the total market, not look at the value in grade 8.0, 6.5 and so on...

 

We can only look at one understanding of value and even within this understanding we can only look at a little fraction of the grades.

 

Such selectivity makes the notion that Cerebus should be "more valuable than H181" hard to take seriously.

 

Market capitalization, Alex. That is the terminology you are looking for.

 

That is the same thing.

 

I work with this every day so maybe I take it for granted that people know.

 

Give me a sec:

 

http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-the-Market-Value-of-a-Company

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/market+value

 

Market capitalization doesn't work for collectibles, as Garlanda explained.

 

I cannot pick up a phone and buy 1,000 copies of Hulk #181 in 9.2.

 

I CAN buy 1,000 shares of Microsoft right now. Just takes money.

 

That you would mix the two betrays a fairly unsophisticated understanding of how the collectibles market works.

[Gatsby77]

Just reiterating some of what Dale Roberts, a well-respected dealer & boardie, has said within the the last three pages:

 

First, that he knows what a 9.2 Hulk 181 sells for, because he's sold several copies this year --none of which was online (which means _not in GPA_).

 

And also:

 

I am not going to price a Hulk #181 9.2 at 3K, unless it is a major upgrade candidate, and then I would probably just bust it out and do it myself. Its not worth that.

 

vs. Cerebus 1:

 

since a 9.0 has sold for $2500, I would have to believe a 9.2 would sell for more than 3K.

 

 

[Guardian Comics]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

 

There is little to no sales data on one of these books. I know exactly what the other one sells for because I have sold multiples this year (and actually none on line). And I didn't say I didn't know what I would price one. I simply didn't state what I would price it. There is a difference.

 

 

 

 

You stated your pricing of a cerebus 1 would be more "trial and error", which I interpret as meaning you would not really know how to price it.

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums that you can definitively say what they are "worth" on an annual basis), and a Hulk 181, 9.2....

 

....put them both on your wall for $3k at the same time and see which one you actually sell first, and closest to that price.

 

Wolvie would win, and you know he would. You'd be staring at that cerebus for months, having to explain to most younger and/or casual collectors why the book is "important", justifying its price tag, waiting for that one niche collector to wander in and then haggle you down on your price. Meanwhile everyone and their mother of every generation will automatically know what that Hulk 181 is, and exactly why it has the price tag it does on it. The book would probably sell in two weeks or less.

 

 

 

-J.

 

 

 

You're confused. To start with, I am not going to price a Hulk #181 9.2 at 3K, unless it is a major upgrade candidate, and then I would probably just bust it out and do it myself. Its not worth that. You can go to any major comic show and find 5 - 10 in the room.

 

On the other hand, there are 6 Cerebus #1s in 9.0 or above all together. I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it. And there currently is no 9.2, but since a 9.0 has sold for $2500, I would have to believe a 9.2 would sell for more than 3K.

 

Absolutely true. Dale sold me the absolute nicest 9.2 #181 on the planet, in Chicago two weeks ago, and it wasn't anywhere close to 3k.

 

Jim

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I don't think anyone is discussing whether a couple of books (starwars, cerebus etc.) might be worth more in a grade or two. That is possible but in the larger scheme of things those are both relatively insignificant books. Many books could be worth far more if the print runs were just smaller.. that in itself is a technicality and says little about the appeal of the book.

 

So those are two different discussions.

 

Is Hulk 181 more valuable in most grades despite a much larger print run? Yes.

 

Is Cerebus perhaps more valuable in a grade or two? Not to most, but perhaps to a few people (but maybe enough to keep the price up given the small print run).

 

Is Hulk181 the more attractive book to far the majority or comics collectors? Yes, definitely. Many have probably never even heard of Cerebus.

 

Is Wolverine a top 10 Superhero of all time in terms of popularity? Yes.

 

Does Cerebus contain any character that can be seen as a top 10 character? No. Top 20? No. Top 30? No. Top 40? No... and so on.

 

Is the financing of Cerebus a neat little story? Yes.

 

What I just read is "if you ignore supply and demand, fundamentals of a market, the book I like is more valuable."

 

And why is it so important to you and jaydog that we acknowledge wolverine is a popular character?

 

Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices.

 

However, this mechanism is not at play here.

 

Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus.

 

So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable.

 

Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181".

 

And you're complaining that other people aren't logical?

 

 

It is entirely outside the realm of reason to compare the market value of "collectibles" to the market value of stocks.

 

No one cares about an individual stock. An individual stock is just a digital representation; it has no meaning in and of itself: it is merely a representation of the value of a particular company.

 

Everyone cares about their individual comic books, because they are all unique, and it is the one (or two, or five, or 100) that *I* own. Every single one of them is individual. There's not a single comic book that exists that is a molecular copy of any other one. And when you add nostalgia in the mix, the individuality of the book stands out even more.

 

No one cares about the copies other people own, unless they might be interested in buying them. They care about their own cop(y)(ies.)

 

The first copy of Batman I bought new off the stands was #437. I paid 75 cents for it. It is about a VF. It has very little market value, but its value to ME is greater than all the other copies of this book that exist, with the possible exception of a 9.8 SS signed by Wolfman, Perez, and Broderick.

 

I'm not even sure if you can GET a physical representation of a stock cert anymore, but if you could, who cares? If I traded it for a different certificate, no one would care. The stock has no value as a physical item.

 

Completely different concepts.

 

[Jaydogrules]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

 

There is little to no sales data on one of these books. I know exactly what the other one sells for because I have sold multiples this year (and actually none on line). And I didn't say I didn't know what I would price one. I simply didn't state what I would price it. There is a difference.

 

 

 

 

You stated your pricing of a cerebus 1 would be more "trial and error", which I interpret as meaning you would not really know how to price it.

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums that you can definitively say what they are "worth" on an annual basis), and a Hulk 181, 9.2....

 

....put them both on your wall for $3k at the same time and see which one you actually sell first, and closest to that price.

 

Wolvie would win, and you know he would. You'd be staring at that cerebus for months, having to explain to most younger and/or casual collectors why the book is "important", justifying its price tag, waiting for that one niche collector to wander in and then haggle you down on your price. Meanwhile everyone and their mother of every generation will automatically know what that Hulk 181 is, and exactly why it has the price tag it does on it. The book would probably sell in two weeks or less.

 

 

 

-J.

 

 

 

You're confused. To start with, I am not going to price a Hulk #181 9.2 at 3K, unless it is a major upgrade candidate, and then I would probably just bust it out and do it myself. Its not worth that. You can go to any major comic show and find 5 - 10 in the room.

 

On the other hand, there are 6 Cerebus #1s in 9.0 or above all together. I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it. And there currently is no 9.2, but since a 9.0 has sold for $2500, I would have to believe a 9.2 would sell for more than 3K.

 

Absolutely true. Dale sold me the absolute nicest 9.2 #181 on the planet, in Chicago two weeks ago, and it wasn't anywhere close to 3k.

 

Jim

 

 

Did you pay more than $2100?

 

-J.

[Dale Roberts]

Which book would you put a higher price tag on, Dale:

 

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2

Cerebus 1 CGC 9.2

 

 

Which book would you pay more for?

 

I would have to believe Cerebus #1 would be considerably higher. I know exactly what a Hulk #181 would sell for. Would be more trial and error with the Cerebus #1.

 

So....you think it would be "considerably higher", yet you are unable to divine a price? What would then be your basis for making such a determination and statement ?

 

-J.

 

There is little to no sales data on one of these books. I know exactly what the other one sells for because I have sold multiples this year (and actually none on line). And I didn't say I didn't know what I would price one. I simply didn't state what I would price it. There is a difference.

 

 

 

 

You stated your pricing of a cerebus 1 would be more "trial and error", which I interpret as meaning you would not really know how to price it.

 

So tell you what, next time you have a cerebus 1, 9.2 (since you dealers seem to run into and sell so many of these a year outside any and all public forums that you can definitively say what they are "worth" on an annual basis), and a Hulk 181, 9.2....

 

....put them both on your wall for $3k at the same time and see which one you actually sell first, and closest to that price.

 

Wolvie would win, and you know he would. You'd be staring at that cerebus for months, having to explain to most younger and/or casual collectors why the book is "important", justifying its price tag, waiting for that one niche collector to wander in and then haggle you down on your price. Meanwhile everyone and their mother of every generation will automatically know what that Hulk 181 is, and exactly why it has the price tag it does on it. The book would probably sell in two weeks or less.

 

 

 

-J.

 

 

 

You're confused. To start with, I am not going to price a Hulk #181 9.2 at 3K, unless it is a major upgrade candidate, and then I would probably just bust it out and do it myself. Its not worth that. You can go to any major comic show and find 5 - 10 in the room.

 

On the other hand, there are 6 Cerebus #1s in 9.0 or above all together. I know 1 person right now that would buy one if I had it. And there currently is no 9.2, but since a 9.0 has sold for $2500, I would have to believe a 9.2 would sell for more than 3K.

 

Hulk 181 9.2 has sold for more than $3k, verifiably very recently. One cerebus 9.0 sold for 2500 more than a year ago (how do you know it wasn't bought at that price as an "upgrade candidate"?). What we have far more recently for cerebus 1 is it taking a dump at just 850 in an 8.5 as well as plenty of other similarly high graded copies languishing on the market for months/years.

 

Remind me again why you think it has a higher FMV than a Hulk 181? Because you "know a guy" who would buy one now if you had one? Is this the kind of dealer data I'm supposed to take as being more reliable than GPA? Not to sound too sarcastic here, but come on guys.

 

-J.

 

I know that 3200.00 is NOT a realistic price for a Hulk #181.

 

I don't really care whether you believe it or not. Someone asked my opinion, I am giving it.

 

Honestly, many, many comic sales happen because I know a customer looking for a book. Same with Storms, and many others.

 

If you don't value my opinion, I will happily bow out of this thread. I have many other things to do than try to convince you. But I will add this. I know what I am doing, more than most, I can s ay with confidence. I have been doing this for 19 years and I have been rather successful. And while I don't know everything, I am confident I know the market better than 80% of the Overstreet Advisors and I have info that GPA will never have.

[newshane]

Dale is right.

 

Only a lunatic would pay over 3K for a 181 in 9.2.