Joe Linsner on CGC and Cry for Dawn Counterfits

[Ryan.]

I guess this explains why I got an email through ebay early this morning asking if I still had the copy he posted in his blog.

[AlexH]

I don't know if Linsner realizes this or not, but the more copies he destroys, the less there are out there, Thus causing the counterfeits to be even rarer, thus driving the price up for the ones left. He'll never get them all, and even if he comes close it will cost a fortune.

[RCheli]

I say more power to him.

 

This is his work. That he owns. That he has the right to control.

 

CGC should not accept counterfeits. I almost feel like, if they receive some, mail them to the actual respective copyright holders.

[dupont2005]

I don't blame the guy for being mad and wanting them removed from the market, but his comment about eBay doesn't seem to hold water in the Motors section. Plenty of counterfeit vehicles in there. Sometimes it's simply a matter of swapping out some badges, sometimes the entire car has been manufactured in someone's garage. Either way it's not a real Cobra, not a real Lamborghini, not a real SL65 AMG.

[MatterEaterLad]

Linsner is overreacting. I feel for him, but his lashing out in all directions, especially as if he is the *only* person who knows what the counterfeits look like, is not warranted.

 

CGC shouldn't be assigning grades to counterfeits. Slabbing them AS counterfeits is one thing. Grading them is where it crosses the line into quasi-legitimacy.

 

This.

 

He sounds like a total rage-monkey at the moment. And a misguided one at that.

 

When he says that people who collect "bootlegs" aren't real fans, he's an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. The only people who collect bootlegs are the guys who already have one of everything he's ever created. It's like someone who owns every single Grateful Dead album on CD and vinyl and THEN collects bootleg tapes. They've already paid the artist in every way possible. Collecting the bootlegs isn't taking money out of the band's pocket...it's PART of fandom...PART of creating a cult status.

 

Linsner dosn't see that. And sounds like a tool in the process.

[ashsaytr]

arn't there counterfeits they won't slab like the Goobletigooks (or however its spelled)... why these and not those?

 

and IBTL

[Ryan.]

What's fun is that as I was reading the new Dawn/Vampirella comic, at the same time and unbeknownst to me, Joe was calling me out by name on his Facebook page. Joe knows my ebay ID and he knows I'm a member on here yet didn't bother reaching out to me directly, electing instead to rage against the counterfeit machine via Facebook. Same deal with Jason who took the brunt of all of this nonsense. If Joe and his wife contacted me privately I would have been happy to work something out. Oh well. I'm just a slovenly reseller who isn't a true fan.

[MK Ultra]

I just picked one up, now I have to wait all day to check if it's fake?

[budsbundy]

Now I want a fake one, but I have no interest in the real thing.

Thanks Joe Linsner for bringing this to my attention so I can add it to my want list.

[Dr. Balls]

I'll try to keep this explanation brief, as I spent all of yesterday battling this stupidity and still lost.

 

After 20 years of buying Cry For Dawn and Dawn-related stuff - yesterday, I finally met the real Joe Linsner. Unfortunately, he decided to make me, my artwork and my Dawn tribute website the target of his ire regarding counterfeit books.

 

My role in all of this? Helping people identify how to spot a counterfeit. Yep. I spent the entire day fighting this guy and his wife simply because I posted information about comparing a real book to a counterfeit one. Here's the thread.

 

I created a site back in February that featured a lot of the hard-to-find CFD books, including a detailed post (taken from my thread here) for collectors to be able to spot a counterfeit. I wrote Joe about the site, asking for his "blessing", which I never got a reply. Seeing that it was a tribute site, and I wasn't selling anything - I made it anyways, and loaded it with plenty of references that this was a tribute site for JML with links to contact him on every page. Here's a screen cap.

 

The site was hosted on the same server as my own website, which meant it carried my name in the URL along with the name of the site: jasonbeam.com/churchofdawn. Despite explaining how this worked to his wife, she refused to accept that, and continued to insist I was using Joe's name to somehow confuse people about my work and misrepresent it as his - and most insulting of all, that my work is derivative of his art, when it's clearly not - unless Joe has figured out a way to copyright scantily-clad women.

 

There are many other points to the conversation I won't get into. It went on in public most of the day, with this wife threatening to "release information" about me and so forth. When I asked his wife if it could be a private conversation, she responded with a statement along the lines of that I was "harassing" her. So, with that comment, I blocked her, Joe and blacklisted his emails coming in on my server. And from her threats, it sounds like they will be releasing a "Part Two" to his blog, which will likely contain more smearing about me, my work or the website (which has now been removed).

 

The sad part about all of this is that the entire situation could have been resolved in a professional manner simply by asking me to remove the content, or hell - maybe just asking me about what was going on! The last thing I intended was to trample on another creator's rights - if they felt that way, I would have gladly complied. I like to think the people who know me here on the boards can at least attest to the fact I'm not the kind of guy who goes around with the intent of ripping people off.

 

What's truly unfortunate is that this guy had inspired me as an artist since I first saw his work. And while most of us here can relate to finally meeting your hero only to find out they are a colossal , it's even worse when you find out your hero is not only a colossal , but tries to destroy your reputation simply because he's having an online temper tantrum. It was a sad display of complete unprofessionalism that I would have thought was far below the kind of artist that JML was.

 

I was simply a fan. All I really wanted to do was create an online resource where there wasn't any for people to find out information on Cry For Dawn books. What I got from the creator and his wife was a smear campaign against me while expressing thier distaste over counterfeit books, which I had nothing to do with other than offering people a way to identify them. They were insistent that I was intent on ripping them off or scamming them - and when presented with my side of the story, they flat rejected it and continued on badgering me about it.

 

For the record, I understand how he feels about counterfeits. Now. Personally, I see both sides of the argument - but he never gave anyone a chance to hear his POV and make changes to their viewpoints or beliefs. He just ragged out his fans, and singled out one in particular: me. I have a counterfeit in my collection, because I'm a completist. And, had he framed his POV a different way, I could see myself changing my views on it - I respect creator rights; had I known he was so vehemently opposed, I'd like to think that I would have given it some thought about owning one.

 

So, I guess we'll see where this all goes - It's very likely that they will show up here to continue the fight - after all, it is Friday.

[seanfingh]

 

Whoa.

[passion4comics]

Some people collect error coins. Some people collect error comics. There are collectors that buy counterfeits because they simply collect them. Gobbledygook isn't graded by CGC because they cannot tell the difference. It's a photocopy. With modern photocopy machines a counterfeit can be made that is near perfect. Unless it was signed by the artist, kind of giving it their "thumbs up" I wouldn't touch it even with a stack of provenance attached to it.

 

From my own observations, most of the art listed on EBay are fakes. I'll spend hours looking at art picking out the real pieces that are pummeled by pricing of the fakes. Most of the designer items are counterfeits. Many of the watches are fakes. DVD and Blu-Ray collection sets are counterfeits. Even raw coins made with the correct metals (silver) have been counterfeited.

 

You can't confiscate a book as a grading company. Regardless if it is a counterfeit or not, it is someone's property even if the infringement is in dispute. Only a court can order the surrender of property. In the case of let's say a counterfeit watch. An unknowing consumer sends it in to the manufacture for service. They will cut the watch in half and return it to the customer.

 

Buying up counterfeit copies is usually futile and frustrating. Even if you had a seller that sold 50 counterfeit copies they could simply say they were victimized too.

 

There will always be a counterfeit of something. All of the aggravation and money spent by the OP could have been put to better use.

[ashsaytr]

(thumbs u thanks!

[AlexH]

Yikes

[Logan510]

Blabbermouth

[Dr. Balls]

Blabbermouth

 

Well, I am "verbose".

[RCheli]

Here's the thing: Linsner may be an about it, but he has to do this stuff. If you hold a copyright or trademark on something and other people are using it without your permission, you have to defend it. If you don't, the courts think you don't care and your trademark is weakened.

 

And please don't compare counterfeit comics with error coins. Not the same thing at all. Error coins are still legal tender. Counterfeit coins are most certainly not.

[RCheli]

 

You can't confiscate a book as a grading company. Regardless if it is a counterfeit or not, it is someone's property even if the infringement is in dispute.

 

What if someone wanted a bill graded that is counterfeit. What would NCG do? Return it to the submitter? Are they required to contact law enforcement?

[Chip Cataldo]

Linser's wife hates Balls? No wonder Joe is an angry prickling.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

[MatterEaterLad]

Here's the thing: Linsner may be an about it, but he has to do this stuff. If you hold a copyright or trademark on something and other people are using it without your permission, you have to defend it. If you don't, the courts think you don't care and your trademark is weakened.

 

And please don't compare counterfeit comics with error coins. Not the same thing at all. Error coins are still legal tender. Counterfeit coins are most certainly not.

 

The problem is that Linsner is angry about counterfeits (as he should be) but he's taking it out on Dr. Balls for having a fansite. What's next? Is his wife going to go on Pinterest and start raging about people who have pinned Linsner art in their "My Favorite Artists" boards?