2004 Original Art Acquisitioins

[Illiterati-migration]

Im an art school grad too, and I gave my opinions twice here about the art school experience. I think when you mean art school you are referring to a Liberal Arts degree specializing in Art History. They would be in good shape to discuss the merits of comics art (or lack of) from a "classically trained" museum employee to be's perspective. In art school we all take studio classes in our major, plus electives in other majors, plus a small requirement of regular textbook-style history classes. As I say, Its not a real rigorous 'training' period... more like a coddled "you are ARTISTS!" in creative isolation from the real world, a gestation period for a career in art to develop a style or direction, or realize you oughtta just get a regular job and forget it!!

 

This is very true. There is a world of difference between art history and art school. It's the same difference as getting a PhD in literature or an MFA in creative writing. One is serious, rigorous, and academic, and the other is a comfy-cozy, non-agressive "let's talk about writing" session that lasts two years. There are exceptions, (like the MFA programs at U. of Iowa or U. of Wisconsin), and I'm sure there are some exceptional art schools too, but generally that's the game.

 

Sorry to be slightly

 

Yes... this is exactly what I was talking about. In fact, I had you in mind (hoping that you would chime in) when I wrote my post.

[Aman619]

I would nominate Alex Ross as an artist who is talented enough to crossover into fine art (if he wanted to).

 

 

I second the nomination... but lets not submit THIS piece, though..?

[Aman619]

No matter how much money comic art collectors throw at individual pieces, it's not going to change the fact that comic art is, for the most part, the crudest of the crude.

 

I can see you are not convinced.... fine. thats cool.

but there's lots worse than comics, so this is a wild exaggeration

[Illiterati-migration]

No matter how much money comic art collectors throw at individual pieces, it's not going to change the fact that comic art is, for the most part, the crudest of the crude.

 

I can see you are not convinced.... fine. thats cool.

but there's lots worse than comics, so this is a wild exaggeration

 

I don't know that it's that "wild" an exaggeration. Comics are, after all, a visual medium... I would expect more from comic artists than what we typically get on a monthly basis. I look back at the art from older books(Bronze, early Copper, etc.), and I have to wonder why we're so tolerant of the stuff we see nowadays.

 

"Changing baselines" and all that rot, I suppose.

 

(Make no mistake, I do buy original art... but typically I buy it because the piece holds some sentimental value to me, or it makes me laugh, or something like that... not because I think it is some groundbreaking piece that will only appreciate in value over time.)

[delekkerste]

 

All this talk about art critique and appraisal has me thinking about taking an NYU School of Continuing Ed. course at the Metropolitan Museum of Art - there's a 12-week course covering art up to the late 19th century that starts on Saturday, Feb. 5. "Classes" (I suspect they are more like a series of guided tours) are at the Met, I believe, and are 11:30am to 1 or 1:10pm. The cost is $370 (which can probably buy a half-decent panel page, but wouldn't you get more out of the course?). Any Board members in the NYC area interested in taking it? If so, drop me a PM and I'll get more details.

[heartened]

I wouldn't even know where to begin in responding to this. So I won't bother.

 

That's an incredibly well-thought answer. Thanks for your input. From your response, I can only gather that Gene's usual line about "collector's anxiety" or the "comic geek inferiority complex" is both stunningly accurate AND rearing its ugly head right here and now.

 

Naturally you're defending your position and taking this argument to illogical extremes-- you've clearly got a buttload (damn metric system, how does that convert?) of money "invested" in this artwork. But here's an idea: Love it because it's yours. Love it like a parent loves their child's macaroni masterpieces. Understand that it's aesthetically pleasing to you as well as possessing an enormous sentimental value and stop crying about how it's "Real Art" despite a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

 

No matter how much money comic art collectors throw at individual pieces, it's not going to change the fact that comic art is, for the most part, the crudest of the crude.

 

My response was based on the fact that we've already all made our views known, and so there's no point in trying to change other peoples' opinions when they are already so set. So, if you took my post as insulting to you, then I apologize.

 

You're response, however, was downright condescending, and insulting. The amount of money I have "invested", however, is none of your concern, but to be honest with you the amount I have invested is zero. I don't expect to make a profit on this hobby ever, so the return I get is meaningless to me. I have NOT ONCE considered resale value on any art that I have purchased. I am not a dealer. It may be hard to believe, but I wouldn't care one bit if the entire comic book and art hobby crashes tomorrow. I have never spent even close to the the amount that would strap me financially, nor do I plan on ever doing so.

 

My arguments on this thread are intellectual, not financial. Yet, instead of trying to understand our view, you see it as a defensive posture by folks who are committed financially to the idea of comic art as fine art. You feel there must be a financial motivation because you just don't understand it otherwise. That's OK. If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that other people just don't "see it" like I do. I can understand their argument, but I've always been quite open-minded about things, and so the concept of comic art or other illustration art eventually making its way into something we'd consider "fine" does not seem so blasphemous to me.

 

Wise minds should be able to at least entertain the concept and realize that it "could" happen, even though they suspect it will not. I concede that their are many limitations to comic art that may hinder its more universal acceptance. But, the point of this thread wasn't whether it is certain that comic art will become respected as "fine art", but whether some of it might over time.

[Aman619]

But, the point of this thread wasn't whether it is certain that comic art will become respected as "fine art", but whether some of it might over time.

 

Thats what Ive understood the discussion to be about as well.....

 

but the financial implications of such acceptance cannot be totally ignored however. Nor should they be overstated as someones motives for buying today. But IF comics art gets "into the club" as it were, it will either be BECAUSE the values grew to large to ignore; OR, they will increase as a direct RESULT of its acceptance. Chicken or egg, there would me MONEY to be made IF it were to happen..

[heartened]

But, the point of this thread wasn't whether it is certain that comic art will become respected as "fine art", but whether some of it might over time.

 

Thats what Ive understood the discussion to be about as well.....

 

but the financial implications of such acceptance cannot be totally ignored however. Nor should they be overstated as someones motives for buying today. But IF comics art gets "into the club" as it were, it will either be BECAUSE the values grew to large to ignore; OR, they will increase as a direct RESULT of its acceptance. Chicken or egg, there would me MONEY to be made IF it were to happen..

 

Agreed

[comicartfan]

I wouldn't even know where to begin in responding to this. So I won't bother.

 

That's an incredibly well-thought answer. Thanks for your input. From your response, I can only gather that Gene's usual line about "collector's anxiety" or the "comic geek inferiority complex" is both stunningly accurate AND rearing its ugly head right here and now.

 

Naturally you're defending your position and taking this argument to illogical extremes-- you've clearly got a buttload (damn metric system, how does that convert?) of money "invested" in this artwork. But here's an idea: Love it because it's yours. Love it like a parent loves their child's macaroni masterpieces. Understand that it's aesthetically pleasing to you as well as possessing an enormous sentimental value and stop crying about how it's "Real Art" despite a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

 

No matter how much money comic art collectors throw at individual pieces, it's not going to change the fact that comic art is, for the most part, the crudest of the crude.

 

My response was based on the fact that we've already all made our views known, and so there's no point in trying to change other peoples' opinions when they are already so set. So, if you took my post as insulting to you, then I apologize.

 

You're response, however, was downright condescending, and insulting. The amount of money I have "invested", however, is none of your concern, but to be honest with you the amount I have invested is zero. I don't expect to make a profit on this hobby ever, so the return I get is meaningless to me. I have NOT ONCE considered resale value on any art that I have purchased. I am not a dealer. It may be hard to believe, but I wouldn't care one bit if the entire comic book and art hobby crashes tomorrow. I have never spent even close to the the amount that would strap me financially, nor do I plan on ever doing so.

 

My arguments on this thread are intellectual, not financial. Yet, instead of trying to understand our view, you see it as a defensive posture by folks who are committed financially to the idea of comic art as fine art. You feel there must be a financial motivation because you just don't understand it otherwise. That's OK. If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that other people just don't "see it" like I do. I can understand their argument, but I've always been quite open-minded about things, and so the concept of comic art or other illustration art eventually making its way into something we'd consider "fine" does not seem so blasphemous to me.

 

Wise minds should be able to at least entertain the concept and realize that it "could" happen, even though they suspect it will not. I concede that their are many limitations to comic art that may hinder its more universal acceptance. But, the point of this thread wasn't whether it is certain that comic art will become respected as "fine art", but whether some of it might over time.

 

 

Hari,

why would you even bother ? -

[DNAgent]

''You say you appreciate comic artwork because it is unique. A one-of-a-kind piece. I can appreciate that, which is why I appreciate high grade golden age comics. Isn't it also unique to find a pristine book from the 1940s? What if you own the best existing copy of a given book, and it's a vf/nm, and the next best known copy is a vg. Is this just a grading quibble?'' -- posted by shrunken

 

hi and thanks!

 

i don't know if i appreciate the artwork due to it being unique, it just happens to be. i appreciate the art likely b/c it is attractive/interesting to me (i just love monsters, skeletons etc.) and many times i remember reading it as a kid so there is some nostalgia...yes, it is certainly unique to find a 1940's pristine comic, it's great in fact! i was probably speaking about the many threads about grading i have viewed on these boards where collectors flame eachother quibbling about grades or getting ripped off or CGC not giving them the grade they wanted etc.etc. etc. i find that funny ...

 

''But you're admitting that appreciation, respect, and value of comic art is largely contingent on a correlating apprecation, respect, and sense of value in comic books'' --shrunken

 

i kinda was referring to people already into comics 'naturally' finding themselves interested in the original comic art. as for outsiders to comics, i would also bet on them being more interested in the art rather than the comics, as they have likely tried comics and aren't interested. but art is more accepted by outsiders...whether it is comic, a card, stained glass, urinal, painting etc...

 

'' Would you pay the same price for a piece of comic art regardless of whether or not the page was white, yellow, or brown with age? '' -- shrunken

 

i would offer less of i saw stains, creases or browning, sure. been lucky so far. this is very different than comics though, where the emphasis on value is in the artwork, and not so much condition.

 

regards all!!!

 

 

oh, here is something from ebay i bought. secrets of haunted house #11 p.2-7end. the title of this story...'Picasso Fever'... i want to scan but have no host , so here is ebay link...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...me=STRK:MEWN:IT

 

item number: 6502423199

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

What I don't understand is your desire/need to have comic art accepted as " fine art ".

 

Why not just accept it for what it is (whatever that may be), rather than want it to become something else?

 

What purpose would labeling it FINE ART serve?

[heartened]

What I don't understand is your desire/need to have comic art accepted as " fine art ".

 

Why not just accept it for what it is (whatever that may be), rather than want it to become something else?

 

What purpose would labeling it FINE ART serve?

 

If my argument comes through as a desire or need to label it fine art, that's not my intention. This is simply a discussion of whether some comic art may rise above the ridicule that so surrounds anything related to comic books in general society. That's all. If I seem so adamant about it being fine art, it's probably only because I'm responding to the other people who have a desire or need to state that it never will be anything other than crude work that anyone can do.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you feel that some comic books can make the leap to "real literature", like Maus, then why can't you see some of the art making the leap to "real art"?

[THE_BEYONDER]

What I don't understand is your desire/need to have comic art accepted as " fine art ".

 

Why not just accept it for what it is (whatever that may be), rather than want it to become something else?

 

What purpose would labeling it FINE ART serve?

 

If my argument comes through as a desire or need to label it fine art, that's not my intention. This is simply a discussion of whether some comic art may rise above the ridicule that so surrounds anything related to comic books in general society. That's all. If I seem so adamant about it being fine art, it's probably only because I'm responding to the other people who have a desire or need to state that it never will be anything other than crude work that anyone can do.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you feel that some comic books can make the leap to "real literature", like Maus, then why can't you see some of the art making the leap to "real art"?

 

I don't feel that comic art is any less "real" than "fine art". In fact....I feel that comics and the original art it was produced from is very unique , and can stand on it's own.

 

It is what it is....and will always hold qualities & characteristics that " fine art " never will.

 

[Illiterati-migration]

You're response, however, was downright condescending, and insulting.

 

Was it any more "condescending and insulting" than YOUR response to which I was replying? Read it again:

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin in responding to this. So I won't bother.

 

Get a grip, Hari.

 

By the way, your long-winded, short-fused hissy-fit didn't go a long way toward proving why comic art should be considered anything above and/or beyond the usual notebook sketchings of any high school sophomore of a modest talent level. If anything, you provided me with further evidence of the "collector's anxiety" I was referring to in my post.

 

Apparently you only want people to contribute to "your" thread (as you have so called it a few times now) if they are in absolute agreement with you. Nope. No inferiority complex there.

[Illiterati-migration]

.

 

It is what it is....and will always hold qualities & characteristics that " fine art " never will.

 

 

I guess I'm failing to see what's so wrong with that for some people.

[Norrin_Radd]

I wouldn't even know where to begin in responding to this. So I won't bother.

 

Get a grip, Hari.

 

By the way, your long-winded, short-fused hissy-fit didn't go a long way toward proving why comic art should be considered anything above and/or beyond the usual notebook sketchings of any high school sophomore of a modest talent level. If anything, you provided me with further evidence of the "collector's anxiety" I was referring to in my post.

 

Apparently you only want people to contribute to "your" thread (as you have so called it a few times now) if they are in absolute agreement with you. Nope. No inferiority complex there.

 

"I'm goin' to pick a fight."

 

 

 

Lighten up Major.

[Illiterati-migration]

I wouldn't even know where to begin in responding to this. So I won't bother.

 

Get a grip, Hari.

 

By the way, your long-winded, short-fused hissy-fit didn't go a long way toward proving why comic art should be considered anything above and/or beyond the usual notebook sketchings of any high school sophomore of a modest talent level. If anything, you provided me with further evidence of the "collector's anxiety" I was referring to in my post.

 

Apparently you only want people to contribute to "your" thread (as you have so called it a few times now) if they are in absolute agreement with you. Nope. No inferiority complex there.

 

"I'm goin' to pick a fight."

 

 

 

Lighten up Major.

 

Is there a reason why you edited my post, or was it specifically to take my words out of context? I clearly stated that Hari "started it", yet you choose to tell me to "lighten up"... why?

[DESTRO-migration]

Hari,

 

Dont even bother,..look at this guys utterly silly avatar,...he is a loser dip !

 

I think chaos has the collectible anxiety,...perhaps it bought all its high grade books 'at the top'.

[Illiterati-migration]

Hari,

 

Dont even bother,..look at this guys utterly silly avatar,...he is a loser dip !

 

I think chaos has the collectible anxiety,...perhaps it bought all its high grade books 'at the top'.

 

Wow, there have been some really wrong, really stupid people here on the boards... and you're one of them.

[DESTRO-migration]

Thats your best ? PATHETIC !