Valuation

[rodan57]

A large amount of the supporting cited "data" was personal experience which isn't a reliable source of information when supporting a valid argument or hypothesis. The GPA discussion was interesting, but beyond that he mostly provided conjecture (eloquent or not) and came off as very defensive that his opinion was not readily accepted as fact.

 

Again, don't really know all the parties but experience does not always equal trustworthiness, especially when it comes to dollars.

 

:shrug:

 

 

Seriously?

 

[seanfingh]

Your bias is showing.

 

 

 

Here's hoping that by the time I reach my 10,000th post give or take, I'll know how to post really funny pictures, memes and gifs in a thread, and am less concerned with facts and figures and putting forth reasonable and well stated arguments. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You are not interested in any reasonable well-stated arguments that are not supported by statistical inference (and in fact statistical inference predicated upon whatever parameters you have placed on the data source). That is neither right nor wrong, but it is why you get into a lot of scrapes.

 

I don't think this entirely fair. A large amount of the supporting cited "data" was personal experience which isn't a reliable source of information when supporting a valid argument or hypothesis. The GPA discussion was interesting, but beyond that he mostly provided conjecture (eloquent or not) and came off as very defensive that his opinion was not readily accepted as fact.

 

Again, don't really know all the parties but experience does not always equal trustworthiness, especially when it comes to dollars.

 

:shrug:

 

Nothing that you said has anything to do with anything. Jaydog demands that all statements be backed up with quantifiable data, which in the comic world means GPA and auction results. This does not make him wrong or bad.

 

What it does do is set him up to constantly be opposing people who have other types of experience and data to bring to the discussion, which are neither public nor necessarily quantifiable. The only problem I have with his position is that it is so rigid that it automatically discounts everything other than his chosen data groupings.

 

I have had a couple of cases where we have had video evidence, and a couple more where there was a mountain of indisputable physical evidence. Most of the time less quantifiable data like testimony and inference carry the day. Again, that doesn't make me right or good. But it does make me far less likely to discount something merely because it is not raw compiled data, devoid of any other context. And I believe there are many folks on here who are capable of weighing all types of evidence without dismissing them out of hand.

[BarryAllen]

Your bias is showing.

 

 

 

Here's hoping that by the time I reach my 10,000th post give or take, I'll know how to post really funny pictures, memes and gifs in a thread, and am less concerned with facts and figures and putting forth reasonable and well stated arguments. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

You are not interested in any reasonable well-stated arguments that are not supported by statistical inference (and in fact statistical inference predicated upon whatever parameters you have placed on the data source). That is neither right nor wrong, but it is why you get into a lot of scrapes.

 

I don't think this entirely fair. A large amount of the supporting cited "data" was personal experience which isn't a reliable source of information when supporting a valid argument or hypothesis. The GPA discussion was interesting, but beyond that he mostly provided conjecture (eloquent or not) and came off as very defensive that his opinion was not readily accepted as fact.

 

Again, don't really know all the parties but experience does not always equal trustworthiness, especially when it comes to dollars.

 

:shrug:

 

Nothing that you said has anything to do with anything. Jaydog demands that all statements be backed up with quantifiable data, which in the comic world means GPA and auction results. This does not make him wrong or bad.

 

What it does do is set him up to constantly be opposing people who have other types of experience and data to bring to the discussion, which are neither public nor necessarily quantifiable. The only problem I have with his position is that it is so rigid that it automatically discounts everything other than his chosen data groupings.

 

I have had a couple of cases where we have had video evidence, and a couple more where there was a mountain of indisputable physical evidence. Most of the time less quantifiable data like testimony and inference carry the day. Again, that doesn't make me right or good. But it does make me far less likely to discount something merely because it is not raw compiled data, devoid of any other context. And I believe there are many folks on here who are capable of weighing all types of evidence without dismissing them out of hand.

 

I think your response is a little harsh, but whatevs.

 

Wanting people to use hard data instead of personal opinions and reviewable sales records versus the "trust the dealers opinion from their experience" is a very valid argument. Personal testimony that contains both bias and a conflict of interest should not be included as reliable information for argumentation purposes.

 

What I said has everything to do with what I think he is/was frustrated with and a large part of what divides many on the boards. An opinion is not fact and any seller's word on value (without physically representing reference data) isn't reliable.

 

I don't expect us to agree, but I hope you would respect the shared opinion that trusting someone on their word is naive when money is involved. This whole situation is tantamount to Car Sales pre-Kelly Blue Book. The car salesmen were the only ones who had any real idea of market value and thus anyone buying a car was at their mercy. Modern comic sellers denouncing publicly available data, but refusing to produce their own records to prove their points and basing their argument on trust is the same thing. If you take a second to think about it, it really is almost an egregious situation.

 

However, video evidence and physical evidence sounds good in my book - provided it is reasonable.

 

I don't want to get into an argument with you as I have seen the results of that before and I would prefer to avoid it. So if you completely disagree, then fine. State it and we can be done with this.

[BarryAllen]

A large amount of the supporting cited "data" was personal experience which isn't a reliable source of information when supporting a valid argument or hypothesis. The GPA discussion was interesting, but beyond that he mostly provided conjecture (eloquent or not) and came off as very defensive that his opinion was not readily accepted as fact.

 

Again, don't really know all the parties but experience does not always equal trustworthiness, especially when it comes to dollars.

 

:shrug:

 

 

Seriously?

 

 

I don't understand this? Besides the shared GPA, most of the argument was based on "personal experience." I am sorry, but that isn't valid data. It contains both bias and a personal conflict of interest - i.e. not valid for use in an argument, unreliable, etc.

[seanfingh]

I completely disagree.

[BarryAllen]

I completely disagree.

 

Ok, agree to disagree. Thank you.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

[BarryAllen]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I don't know Nick, so no opinion either way.

 

However, if they are so trustworthy and honest, then why don't they share their data or report all their sales? Invoices or recorded sales with any modern accounting tools would provide simple reports that they could publish to support their asking prices (one way or the other).

 

Please provide an example other than the "pain in the butt" defense.

[Jaydogrules]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I know GPA doesn't report "every sale" but I feel there is more than enough that is reported that is relevant to the cents to pence valuation question here to divine a larger pattern. I would say that would indeed put the onus to provide opposing data that can at least be equally tested and objectively evaluated by the masses on the dealer who is essentially asking me to ignore the data that is publicly available. I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation, especially if said dealer makes such sweeping pronouncements of how wrong and incomplete the data that we do have is.

 

-J.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I don't know Nick, so no opinion either way.

 

However, if they are so trustworthy and honest, then why don't they share their data or report all their sales? Invoices or recorded sales with any modern accounting tools would provide simple reports that they could publish to support their asking prices (one way or the other).

 

Please provide an example other than the "pain in the butt" defense.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't equate a dealer's integrity (honesty and trustworthiness) with his willingness or ability to provide free information such as this.

[BarryAllen]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I don't know Nick, so no opinion either way.

 

However, if they are so trustworthy and honest, then why don't they share their data or report all their sales? Invoices or recorded sales with any modern accounting tools would provide simple reports that they could publish to support their asking prices (one way or the other).

 

Please provide an example other than the "pain in the butt" defense.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't equate a dealer's integrity (honesty and trustworthiness) with his willingness or ability to provide free information such as this.

 

That's a fair point. From the same angle then I am not (and neither is anyone else) required to believe what they say. By the way, if you never have any other information to substaniate their information you cannot 100% say it is reliable or trustworthy, only that it was said and you believed it.

 

Ingretity or not, having knowledge/information and not openly sharing it (in a reliable fashion) for personal gain isn't exactly a noble quality. They can do whatever they want with their information, but the farther we move into the 21st century the less popular and less acceptable this will be.

 

People have proven untrustworthy as a species, it is human nature to ask for proof.

[Cephusdog]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I don't know Nick, so no opinion either way.

 

However, if they are so trustworthy and honest, then why don't they share their data or report all their sales? Invoices or recorded sales with any modern accounting tools would provide simple reports that they could publish to support their asking prices (one way or the other).

 

Please provide an example other than the "pain in the butt" defense.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't equate a dealer's integrity (honesty and trustworthiness) with his willingness or ability to provide free information such as this.

 

That's a fair point. From the same angle then I am not (and neither is anyone else) required to believe what they say. By the way, if you never have any other information to substaniate their information you cannot 100% say it is reliable or trustworthy, only that it was said and you believed it.

 

Ingretity or not, having knowledge/information and not openly sharing it (in a reliable fashion) for personal gain isn't exactly a noble quality. They can do whatever they want with their information, but the farther we move into the 21st century the less popular and less acceptable this will be.

 

People have proven untrustworthy as a species, it is human nature to ask for proof.

 

It seems F_T has been trying to share his information with you but you don't want to hear it.

 

Is it on him or you that his methods don't meet your criteria?

[thunsicker]

 

As that's from the GPA home page, I'd imagine 'exactly correct' is precisely what it is.

 

And it changes the analysis immensely, as the only UK dealer down there is Comicana Direct...that would be me...and my secret shame is that we've been unable to submit data for some time now, due to pressure of running the business.

 

So the pool of 'evidence' is limited to US dealers and US auction houses, a bit of eBay UK, it's restricted to slabbed sales only, it doesn't include any UK retail data (where the vast majority of pence copies trade)...and yet you think the results it throws up is more likely to be correct than any other source?

 

Or ALMOST exactly correct, give or take one lazy dealer who doesn't report!

 

That said I do think 70-85 percent is probably accurate on most books. At least from a few I looked over (early Spider-Mans).

[rjrjr]

Nick,I think Mr.Jaydog likes to argue for argument sake.

 

Agreed. Just let Jaydog get his say and move on. It doesn't matter how wrong he is, he's not going to stop arguing with you.

[Jaydogrules]

Nick,I think Mr.Jaydog likes to argue for argument sake.

 

Agreed. Just let Jaydog get his say and move on. It doesn't matter how wrong he is, he's not going to stop arguing with you.

 

Wow. Just wow. Your useless comment presumes I am the only one arguing the point, and have provided no actual publicly available data points to support a position. Since you have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion I would suggest you take your own advice and move on.

 

-J.

[rjrjr]

Nick,I think Mr.Jaydog likes to argue for argument sake.

 

Agreed. Just let Jaydog get his say and move on. It doesn't matter how wrong he is, he's not going to stop arguing with you.

 

Wow. Just wow. Your useless comment presumes I am the only one arguing the point, and have provided no actual publicly available data points to support a position. Since you have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion I would suggest you take your own advice and move on.

 

-J.

 

I did contribute. I told Nick he was better off letting you get the last word and moving on. Sorry you didn't appreciate my advice.

[BarryAllen]

No offense guys, but given the gaps in reported data, I would place a very high emphasis on information compiled from those in the trenches, anecdotal or not.

 

And if I made a short-list of dealers and other individuals to query, Nick would definitely be on that list.

 

I don't know Nick, so no opinion either way.

 

However, if they are so trustworthy and honest, then why don't they share their data or report all their sales? Invoices or recorded sales with any modern accounting tools would provide simple reports that they could publish to support their asking prices (one way or the other).

 

Please provide an example other than the "pain in the butt" defense.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't equate a dealer's integrity (honesty and trustworthiness) with his willingness or ability to provide free information such as this.

 

That's a fair point. From the same angle then I am not (and neither is anyone else) required to believe what they say. By the way, if you never have any other information to substaniate their information you cannot 100% say it is reliable or trustworthy, only that it was said and you believed it.

 

Ingretity or not, having knowledge/information and not openly sharing it (in a reliable fashion) for personal gain isn't exactly a noble quality. They can do whatever they want with their information, but the farther we move into the 21st century the less popular and less acceptable this will be.

 

People have proven untrustworthy as a species, it is human nature to ask for proof.

 

It seems F_T has been trying to share his information with you but you don't want to hear it.

 

Is it on him or you that his methods don't meet your criteria?

 

Fair point, in truth it is on me. As a general rule, I don't trust sellers I don't know at their word on value, regardless of experience. He doesn't have to do anything just like I don't have to buy anything.

 

However, I am not in agreement that he is "sharing" anything by just claiming or stating the values. For all I know, the information provided could be completely self serving and either wholly or in part, inaccurate. This is where the argument stems, my point is that is unwise to believe a seller who doesn't provide examples. That is all.

 

Note - that I am not aiming this at F_T as I do not know him at all and I am sincerely not calling out his integrity. He just happens to be the one in the conversation (however increasingly it appears to be mostly with myself).

 

:shrug: