Is X-Men #1 graded CGC 9.2 underrated (Value)?

[Jaydogrules]

Come on an action comics 1 is not an asm 129. Not that there is ever any consistent or real difference in price there either based on the "PQ" on the label alone. That action 1 would have sold for millions regardless and I believe that there is some murmuring that something was in fact done to that book to make the pages "white®".

 

-J.

 

Murmuring by who? Anything substantiated, or is this just a tin-foil hat brigade thing?

 

There's a dozens of pages long thread about the book in both the GA and CG forum. Nobody can prove anything obviously but the book in its prior iteration did not have "white pages" on the label, unless I'm mistaken.

 

This is not unprecedented either as there was also a wonder woman 1 that was auctioned off on c link several months ago as a 7.5 "ow/w" and suddenly became an 8.0 "w" in c link's subsequent feature auction.

 

-J.

Incorrect on the 9.0 action 1. The book always had white pages , from first time graded through last (and there is proof).

 

And it's a better looking copy than the other 9.0.

 

Correct, as gator stated earlier. The other 9.0 may be a tad "over graded" as compared to the "new" 9.0, regardless of the "PQ" on the label, although if the first 9.0 had been the one auctioned instead I suspect it still would have obliterated sales records.

As for the wonder woman 1, that started off as a 7.5 in that c link auction, I know for a fact that the "PQ" jumped from "ow/w" to "w" on the CPR to an 8.0. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

My guess is the line between ow/w and w is a very thin one

[VintageComics]

My guess is the line between ow/w and w is a very thin one

 

Yup. Valuation is not black and white. It's all relative between grades as there are so many other factors - eye appeal, page quality, markings / writing, chipping, stains, rust on staples. Everyone has different pet peeves. Some people actually don't mind chipping so they keep the valuation at grade buoyant because they'll bid on a book to upgrade if it looks to cheap because those that don't like chipping opt not to bid. Same with PQ, etc.

 

That's why valuation is not a black and white science.

 

When it comes to top tier books, they start to line up based on desirability, so if two top copies appear in the same grade, then the other factors that affect desirability start to take greater effect.

 

The left side of the curve is one grade level, the right side of the curve is the next grade up. In between all sorts of things can happen. It's not a square wave like people think it is. That's why always trying to buy under GPA doesn't work.

 

It's all relativel

 

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

My guess is the line between ow/w and w is a very thin one

 

But wasn't the other Action 1 a CR/OW ? This would mean the difference between a White and CR/OW and, as stated, the implied better eye appeal. The White paged copy simply looked better, thus commanding a better price, though I suspect Metro was going to pay whatever it took for it.

This endless banter between Jaydog and I is probably driving most of you nuts, I know it's driving me nuts. I feel White page books generally have better eye appeal and will command better prices, especially on big books. Jaydog does not believe this. Believe what you want because neither of us can categorically prove their point (though Jaydog thinks he can).

[drbanner]

I feel White page books generally have better eye appeal and will command better prices, especially on big books.

(thumbs u

 

All else being equal, the market has spoken and you are correct that a copy with white pages will sell for more than one without. Does anyone really disagree with that?

 

[Jaydogrules]

I feel White page books generally have better eye appeal and will command better prices, especially on big books.

(thumbs u

 

All else being equal, the market has spoken and you are correct that a copy with white pages will sell for more than one without. Does anyone really disagree with that?

 

I do. And I have provided a multitude of data points in both BA and SA that unequivocally demonstrates otherwise. The problem is, for your statement to actually be true, you have to be correct 100% of the time AND be inside the head of every buyer when they make their buying decision. Your hypothesis, therefore, "that a copy with white pages will sell for more than one without" is doomed to failure, because it is clearly and demonstrably false and easily dis-proven with even scant anecdotal evidence and minimal research. At this point it just seems folks are choosing to believe in something that is more myth than fact, simply because that is what they are used to. And to that I say, to each his own. (thumbs u

 

-J.

[showcase22gr1959]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

[drbanner]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

Yep, but it's not just your analysis, it's mine, dealers that have weighed in, other collectors, etc.,. There are plenty of threads/discussions on whether white pages are worth it, but the common theme in every one of them is that books with white pages do sell for more (although not everyone agrees that they should). If they didn't, there wouldn't be the need for such threads in the 1st place.

 

Let's see if I can find some...

 

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

 

I certainly agree with this. I'm not sure how frequently such a scenario would arise but under those circumstances I think anyone would agree.

 

The only hitch though is what does it mean if someone clicks a BIN at a higher price for a "lesser 'PQ'" the next day on ebay ? Does that mean you got a "deal" on your book with "white pages" on the label ? Or does it mean that the second guy "overpaid"? I'm suggesting that it doesn't mean anything either way.

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

Yep, but it's not just your analysis, it's mine, dealers that have weighed in, other collectors, etc.,. There are plenty of threads/discussions on whether white pages are worth it, but the common theme in every one of them is that books with white pages do sell for more (although not everyone agrees that they should). If they didn't, there wouldn't be the need for such threads in the 1st place.

 

Let's see if I can find some...

 

I believe it is institutionalized "pagism" that exists more on these boards than it does in the general marketplace. As others have pointed out, those who do not put much stock into so-called "PQ" will still bid up books or click BIN'S that, for the most part, keep a floor under a book's price, regardless of the "PQ" on the label. Especially the major keys.

 

"Pagism". You like that ?

 

-J.

[showcase22gr1959]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

Yep, but it's not just your analysis, it's mine, dealers that have weighed in, other collectors, etc.,. There are plenty of threads/discussions on whether white pages are worth it, but the common theme in every one of them is that books with white pages do sell for more (although not everyone agrees that they should). If they didn't, there wouldn't be the need for such threads in the 1st place.

 

Let's see if I can find some...

 

You know what I mean. Not trying to prove what's wrong or right.

 

[showcase22gr1959]

Jaydog, books with nice paper has always been priced higher during pre CGC and now. The overall structure will determine if a premium should be placed. Yes, books of lower PQ in the same may sell for more but if the overall structure is better than the better PQ book in the same grade. Now if both books have the same quality structure, I and most folks will pick the book with the better PQ. Not disagree with you, just my analysis.

 

I certainly agree with this. I'm not sure how frequently such a scenario would arise but under those circumstances I think anyone would agree.

 

The only hitch though is what does it mean if someone clicks a BIN at a higher price for a "lesser 'PQ'" the next day on ebay ? Does that mean you got a "deal" on your book with "white pages" on the label ? Or does it mean that the second guy "overpaid"? I'm suggesting that it doesn't mean anything either way.

 

-J.

 

The prices on books fluctuate in prices...depending on timing. If two same structure books are set side to side and other one has better PQ, why wouldn't the person pick the better PQ book? I seen a lot of books raw and really appreciate books with great PQ. I understand books in CGC case can be hard to enjoy, but unfortunately it has became a collectible market.

[thunsicker]

I feel White page books generally have better eye appeal and will command better prices, especially on big books.

(thumbs u

 

All else being equal, the market has spoken and you are correct that a copy with white pages will sell for more than one without. Does anyone really disagree with that?

 

I do. And I have provided a multitude of data points in both BA and SA that unequivocally demonstrates otherwise. The problem is, for your statement to actually be true, you have to be correct 100% of the time AND be inside the head of every buyer when they make their buying decision. Your hypothesis, therefore, "that a copy with white pages will sell for more than one without" is doomed to failure, because it is clearly and demonstrably false and easily dis-proven with even scant anecdotal evidence and minimal research. At this point it just seems folks are choosing to believe in something that is more myth than fact, simply because that is what they are used to. And to that I say, to each his own. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

I don't think this is true. To show that page quality figures into price you only have to show a trend. If you had to show it was true every time that I could prove that grade doesn't matter either.

[Bomber-Bob]

Though it's not explicitly included in the CGC census, we all know certain books are very difficult to find with White Pages. Showcase 22, Brave and Bold 28 being two examples. Rarity adds to value.

So, with White pages you have more rarity and probably better eye appeal. With White pages you probably have better preservation yielding enhanced cover colors and brightness. With this being said, if the White Pager has chipping, bad centering, writing on the cover, etc. the White pages don't mean jack. I think this is what you are finding in your GPA statistics, cases where fugly White Pagers are compared to appealing non White Pagers. I don't know of any dealer that would not price in White Pages for a book like Showcase 22. I know I have been approached on books simply because they have White Pages. Jaydog, sorry man, but you are just wrong in this discussion.

[showcase22gr1959]

Though it's not explicitly included in the CGC census, we all know certain books are very difficult to find with White Pages. Showcase 22, Brave and Bold 28 being two examples. Rarity adds to value.

So, with White pages you have more rarity and probably better eye appeal. With White pages you probably have better preservation yielding enhanced cover colors and brightness. With this being said, if the White Pager has chipping, bad centering, writing on the cover, etc. the White pages don't mean jack. I think this is what you are finding in your GPA statistics, cases where fugly White Pagers are compared to appealing non White Pagers. I don't know of any dealer that would not price in White Pages for a book like Showcase 22. I know I have been approached on books simply because they have White Pages. Jaydog, sorry man, but you are just wrong in this discussion.

 

I have never seen a BB28 in 7.5+ in white pages. I believe you may own the only one.

[drbanner]

Let's see if I can find some...

Ok, that was a waste of time, a lot of the same folks speaking to the issue. I did see that Jay conceded that all else being equal, even he would take the white-paged copy over a copy with lesser PQ. But he won't pay a penny more for it, so don't even bother asking!

 

But a lot of other people would, and a lot of people won't even buy SA or newer books with CR/OW or worse pages. So there you have it, money talks and the market says page quality matters.

 

/case closed

[Bomber-Bob]

Though it's not explicitly included in the CGC census, we all know certain books are very difficult to find with White Pages. Showcase 22, Brave and Bold 28 being two examples. Rarity adds to value.

So, with White pages you have more rarity and probably better eye appeal. With White pages you probably have better preservation yielding enhanced cover colors and brightness. With this being said, if the White Pager has chipping, bad centering, writing on the cover, etc. the White pages don't mean jack. I think this is what you are finding in your GPA statistics, cases where fugly White Pagers are compared to appealing non White Pagers. I don't know of any dealer that would not price in White Pages for a book like Showcase 22. I know I have been approached on books simply because they have White Pages. Jaydog, sorry man, but you are just wrong in this discussion.

 

I have never seen a BB28 in 7.5+ in white pages. I believe you may own the only one.

 

And I believe you have a White Page Showcase 22.

[Jaydogrules]

Though it's not explicitly included in the CGC census, we all know certain books are very difficult to find with White Pages. Showcase 22, Brave and Bold 28 being two examples. Rarity adds to value.

So, with White pages you have more rarity and probably better eye appeal. With White pages you probably have better preservation yielding enhanced cover colors and brightness. With this being said, if the White Pager has chipping, bad centering, writing on the cover, etc. the White pages don't mean jack. I think this is what you are finding in your GPA statistics, cases where fugly White Pagers are compared to appealing non White Pagers. I don't know of any dealer that would not price in White Pages for a book like Showcase 22. I know I have been approached on books simply because they have White Pages. Jaydog, sorry man, but you are just wrong in this discussion.

 

How am I wrong? If I read your post correctly, you just agreed with me. You just agreed that "white pages" on the label does not necessarily mean anything if there are other issues with the book detracting from eye appeal that trump "PQ". This is what I have been saying all along. And I agreed with you that if a book is otherwise "perfect" and also has "white pages" on the label it may very well deserve a modest "premium". But books such as these are few and far between.

 

And for the record I have seen many books with tanning on the cover and with "white pages" on the label. This is why I do not buy into equating overall preservation with CGC'S at times random "PQ" designations.

 

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

Let's see if I can find some...

Ok, that was a waste of time, a lot of the same folks speaking to the issue. I did see that Jay conceded that all else being equal, even he would take the white-paged copy over a copy with lesser PQ. But he won't pay a penny more for it, so don't even bother asking!

 

But a lot of other people would, and a lot of people won't even buy SA or newer books with CR/OW or worse pages. So there you have it, money talks and the market says page quality matters.

 

/case closed

 

A lot of people on here say they wouldn't. And a lot on here do. And even more not on here. You only need one buyer for a book.

 

-J.

[Bomber-Bob]

Let's see if I can find some...

Ok, that was a waste of time, a lot of the same folks speaking to the issue. I did see that Jay conceded that all else being equal, even he would take the white-paged copy over a copy with lesser PQ. But he won't pay a penny more for it, so don't even bother asking!

 

But a lot of other people would, and a lot of people won't even buy SA or newer books with CR/OW or worse pages. So there you have it, money talks and the market says page quality matters.

 

/case closed

 

A lot of people on here say they wouldn't. And a lot on here do. And even more not on here. You only need one buyer for a book.

 

-J.

 

I won't buy a SA book with CR/OW pages, really. Regarding you only need one buyer for a book, if the book is in an auction and you are the seller, you're in trouble.