OAAW 83's potential to be a top 5 SA key?

[BarryAllen]

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of conversations on this site where people claim the guide is not a good indicator of value.

 

It can't wrong all the time, right all the time and still be legitimate. Heck, one of the main points of this thread has been how OOAW 83 was not included in the top 20, but should have been... People can't have it both ways, pick and choose which data is accurate and then decide it is still legitimate. I call shenanigans.

 

Ultimately it comes down to how the pricing is created. From how it has been explained to me, it is a bunch of people (and by people I mean investors in the guide via advertising or other and various forms of comic sellers) sitting in a room and discussing what comic values should be and coming to some alignment. Ignoring the obvious conflict of interest in that arrangement, I have also read that a number of other dealers have submitted reams of data from actual sales that largely goes ignored.

 

So no it isn't legitimate if: it isn't consistent, isn't created without a conflict of interest and doesn't incorporate broader results of actual sales. Lack of another substitute to help with pricing doesn't make it accurate.

[Jeffro.]

I disagree with you

[BarryAllen]

Ok.

[Jeffro.]

So no it isn't legitimate if: it isn't consistent, isn't created without a conflict of interest and doesn't incorporate broader results of actual sales. Lack of another substitute to help with pricing doesn't make it accurate.

 

Then what do you suggest? There is no equivalent to OPG. It may be flawed, but it's the best we have and the fact that it's used every day, as I said, legitimizes it

[VintageComics]

I disagree with you

 

I do too.

 

Nobody sits in a room and price books. Bob Overstreet, reads reports, takes suggestions and then comes out with his own prices. Think rolodex.

 

And while I was one of the guys a few years ago screaming about how inconsistent the Guide was, I concede that it's still valued in a large majority of marketplace transactions.

 

There are always different markets. Papaya will be more expensive in some places than others, so you can't say it's the same price everywhere but the largest consumer will make sure that their value model stays relevant.

 

 

[BarryAllen]

So no it isn't legitimate if: it isn't consistent, isn't created without a conflict of interest and doesn't incorporate broader results of actual sales. Lack of another substitute to help with pricing doesn't make it accurate.

 

Then what do you suggest? There is no equivalent to OPG. It may be flawed, but it's the best we have and the fact that it's used every day, as I said, legitimizes it

 

I don't accept the "no better alternative" argument. Millions of bad decisions have been made because they are using inaccurate or bad information.

 

My recommendation would be for Overstreet (or someone else) to update the antiquated model and accept physical sales data from hundreds of dealers and use computer modeling to analyze the trends and report real sales online. GPA is a great example of a tool that could be improved if additional dealers provided their unedited sales data.

 

The issue is that the dealers still want to control the information to control the sales relationship and outcomes. Overstreet is just another example of that. If find this scenario unethical.

[Jeffro.]

So no it isn't legitimate if: it isn't consistent, isn't created without a conflict of interest and doesn't incorporate broader results of actual sales. Lack of another substitute to help with pricing doesn't make it accurate.

 

Then what do you suggest? There is no equivalent to OPG. It may be flawed, but it's the best we have and the fact that it's used every day, as I said, legitimizes it

 

I don't accept the "no better alternative" argument. Millions of bad decisions have been made because they are using inaccurate or bad information.

 

My recommendation would be for Overstreet (or someone else) to update the antiquated model and accept physical sales data from hundreds of dealers and use computer modeling to analyze the trends and report real sales online. GPA is a great example of a tool that could be improved if additional dealers provided their unedited sales data.

 

 

And even that will still be flawed for a variety of reasons. Might it be better than the current OPG? Perhaps. However, there are so many variables that it would still not be what you are suggesting.

 

GPA works (to the degree that it does) because it uses a specific constant, CGC graded comics. However, even that is not without flaws. A 9.2 with cream pages may sell for less than a 9.2 with white pages. What about inconsistencies in assigned grades? A 9.4 on one day might be a 9.6 on another.

 

I'm certainly not suggesting that OPG be the be-all and end-all however it still works because it's still widely used by collectors and dealers.

[Jaydogrules]

Welllll.....going to have to agree with rfoii on some of his points here. Much of OPG's pricing models are actually based on the consensus of a Star Chamber who do have a skin in the game. Many dealers do complain that OPG either ignored or refuses to acknowledge actual publicly verifiable sales data, seemingly in preference for the out dated method of word of mouth pricing. If anything this is the exact opposite of "useful" as it seems to be attempting to deliberately obfuscate certain realities in the market. I think this out-moded model does a lot to explain the "I'm a dealer, so I automatically know what I'm talking about so you just need to trust in what I say, in spite of my lack of verifiable sales data points" attitude that many seem to have on these boards. We live in the information age, and that is not an acceptable way to create a useful "price guide".

 

And yes the last vestiges of OPG's relevance does seem to be in favor of dealers who like to whip out "the Guide" and use it to low ball unsuspecting sellers on their raw collection of keys, then offering even fractions of "Guide" on top of that, knowing full well that CGC versions of those same comics on most occasions will go for multiples of "Guide".

 

I'm not saying all dealers are unethical. But they are in business to make money, and OPG is very much obviously a tool that allows dealers to do just that. Most seasoned collectors who are trying to sell will roll their eyes if a dealer tries to pull out OPG to price their books.

 

-J.

[VintageComics]

Welllll.....going to have to agree with rfoii on some of his points here. Much of OPG's pricing models are actually based on the consensus of a Star Chamber who do have a skin in the game. Many dealers do complain that OPG either ignored or refuses to acknowledge actual publicly verifiable sales data, seemingly in preference for the out dated method of word of mouth pricing. If anything this is the exact opposite of "useful" as it seems to be attempting to deliberately obfuscate certain realities in the market. I think this out-moded model does a lot to explain the "I'm a dealer, so I automatically know what I'm talking about so you just need to trust in what I say, in spite of my lack of verifiable sales data points" attitude that many seem to have on these boards. We live in the information age, and that is not an acceptable way to create a useful "price guide".

 

And yes the last vestiges of OPG's relevance does seem to be in favor of dealers who like to whip out "the Guide" and use it to low ball unsuspecting sellers on their raw collection of keys, then offering even fractions of "Guide" on top of that, knowing full well that CGC versions of those same comics on most occasions will go for multiples of "Guide".

 

I'm not saying all dealers are unethical. But they are in business to make money, and OPG is very obviously a tool that allows dealers to do just that.

 

-J.

 

What you forget to mention is that the majority of the hobby approves of the Guide by continuing to support and use it.

 

You can try to remove it with something more precise, accurate and speedy but once you get the entire Hobby behind something like GPA or Go Collect, which is basically instantaneous sales prices you will remove the middle man (the dealer).

 

 

[Jeffro.]

Welllll.....going to have to agree with rfoii on some of his points here.

 

There are certainly valid points presented on both sides. OPG is flawed, we all know that. (so is GPA) What I object to is those people who dismiss it 100%. If that were true, then it would fold and cease to be published.

 

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

Welllll.....going to have to agree with rfoii on some of his points here.

 

There are certainly valid points presented on both sides. OPG is flawed, we all know that. (so is GPA) What I object to is those people who dismiss it 100%. If that were true, then it would fold and cease to be published.

 

 

 

 

I also agree with yourself and Vintage, much of the market does still use OPG even for graded books as a valuation tool, either pricing a book at "multiples of Guide" or what have you.

The market has adapted to what the Guide has been and continues to be. It's time for the Guide to do some adapting as well however, as the market has clearly changed and evolved significantly since even 1999, let alone 1979.

 

-J.

[Spiderphill]

Welllll.....going to have to agree with rfoii on some of his points here. Much of OPG's pricing models are actually based on the consensus of a Star Chamber who do have a skin in the game. Many dealers do complain that OPG either ignored or refuses to acknowledge actual publicly verifiable sales data, seemingly in preference for the out dated method of word of mouth pricing. If anything this is the exact opposite of "useful" as it seems to be attempting to deliberately obfuscate certain realities in the market. I think this out-moded model does a lot to explain the "I'm a dealer, so I automatically know what I'm talking about so you just need to trust in what I say, in spite of my lack of verifiable sales data points" attitude that many seem to have on these boards. We live in the information age, and that is not an acceptable way to create a useful "price guide".

 

And yes the last vestiges of OPG's relevance does seem to be in favor of dealers who like to whip out "the Guide" and use it to low ball unsuspecting sellers on their raw collection of keys, then offering even fractions of "Guide" on top of that, knowing full well that CGC versions of those same comics on most occasions will go for multiples of "Guide".

 

I'm not saying all dealers are unethical. But they are in business to make money, and OPG is very much obviously a tool that allows dealers to do just that. Most seasoned collectors who are trying to sell will roll their eyes if a dealer tries to pull out OPG to price their books.

 

-J.

OPG is still used by majority of the hobby based on my limited experience. A lot of my LCS use OPG for everything. Not gpa or any other methods. There have been multiple instances where I have paid OPG pricing that was much lower than it's graded/gpa value. It goes both ways. OPG will be the most popular method for the foreseeable future. GPA isn't mainstream in this hobby and this forum isn't mainstream in this hobby but both are probably some of the most valuable info you can have on this hobby.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

The market has adapted to what the Guide has been and continues to be. It's time for the Guide to do some adapting as well however, as the market has clearly changed and evolved significantly since even 1999, let alone 1979.

 

 

From what I understand the Guide ain't changing anytime soon.

[Jaydogrules]

The market has adapted to what the Guide has been and continues to be. It's time for the Guide to do some adapting as well however, as the market has clearly changed and evolved significantly since even 1999, let alone 1979.

 

 

From what I understand the Guide ain't changing anytime soon.

 

 

-J.

[Jeffro.]

The market has adapted to what the Guide has been and continues to be. It's time for the Guide to do some adapting as well however, as the market has clearly changed and evolved significantly since even 1999, let alone 1979.

 

 

From what I understand the Guide ain't changing anytime soon.

 

 

-J.

 

He's probably correct. Perhaps in some future when Bob Overstreet isn't involved, that may change. Or perhaps it won't

[bronze johnny]

The market has adapted to what the Guide has been and continues to be. It's time for the Guide to do some adapting as well however, as the market has clearly changed and evolved significantly since even 1999, let alone 1979.

 

 

From what I understand the Guide ain't changing anytime soon.

 

 

-J.

 

He's probably correct. Perhaps in some future when Bob Overstreet isn't involved, that may change. Or perhaps it won't

 

Fortunately, the Guide contributes many things to our hobby- articles exploring different topics of comic book history and collecting are just one example. The market report contributions made by advisors provide good insight into the market. Yes, I agree that the Guide has its flaws but after 44 years of following our hobby, Bob's done a good job. Moreover, any suggestions that a serious degree of collusion exists between Bob and a select group of dealers attempting to control some aspect of the market implies a certain level of unethical practice- supported by uncorroborrated hearsay.

[drbanner]

I'm not saying all dealers are unethical. But they are in business to make money, and OPG is very much obviously a tool that allows dealers to do just that. Most seasoned collectors who are trying to sell will roll their eyes if a dealer tries to pull out OPG to price their books.

Yep. (thumbs u

 

The guide has always had a section on "selling your comics" and that is what the dealers that advertise in the guide are hoping to do - buy your comics at below retail/guide. In the pre-internet days, there were very few venues for collectors to use to sell their collections and the general model was that dealers would buy your collection at x% of retail/guide (50% for example), and sell for full retail/guide. That has all changed now with the internet as collectors can buy and sell to/from each other at near retail/guide/market.

 

As for the values listed, I think they're pretty widely used for the vast majority of back-issue comic books bought and sold (<$100 books). For 4-figure and higher books, the folks buying/selling that kind of stuff are almost all tuned in to the certified segment of the market, and GPA has become the "guide".

[MusterMark]

OPG is still relevant. It's still used for buying and selling by thousands of comic collectors and dealers. Every time a comic sells when priced according to OPG, that legitimizes the guide.

 

If we want to argue that it's not as relevant as it was 30-40 years ago, then I would say that's reasonable but to suggest that it's not relevant ignores the thousands of raw comic transactions that take place every day, not only on the internet but at shops and shows.

this

 

+1

 

I haven't walked into a con ever where a dealer didn't whip out an OPG to check valuation of a raw wall book. Ever...

 

 

 

+1 to all of the above.

 

 

I haven't walked into a con ever where a dealer didn't whip out an OPG to check valuation of a raw wall book. Ever...

 

Not only cons, but comic book stores too. Nearly every comic book store I have ever been to, including nowadays, uses OPG for their BA, SA, etc. Either the books are already marked by OPG prices, or they take it out the OPG right in front of me and make the price.

BTW, I also know dealers who price their slabbed comics by OPG.

So, yes, there are now alternatives on the Internet etc, but OPG is still used SO much.

 

Of course, the OPG has some flaws. I myself pointed that out in an earlier post. But that doesn't mean it's not relevant. And it doesn't mean it is flawed for all of its pricing - far from it. I find that it is very useful the great majority of the time.

 

And to say that it is not relevant because of its flaws is very much missing the point. It is relevant, despite its flaws, because it is used so much! And, because it actually is very useful.

 

I myself use it almost every day.

 

I wouldn't say it is still relevant. I would say it is indispensable.

And that's when looking at it as just a price guide.

But it is so much more than just a price guide, that it really is indispensable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

For 4-figure and higher books, the folks buying/selling that kind of stuff are almost all tuned in to the certified segment of the market, and GPA has become the "guide".

 

It's more complicated than that and not black and white.

 

There are some expensive books in the Guide that don't even fetch Guide prices on the open market.

 

And there are some GPA books that will fetch over Guide to the right market.

 

So nowadays it all depends on your market and what they expect.

 

 

[Tempus Fugit]

OPG is still relevant. It's still used for buying and selling by thousands of comic collectors and dealers. Every time a comic sells when priced according to OPG, that legitimizes the guide.

 

If we want to argue that it's not as relevant as it was 30-40 years ago, then I would say that's reasonable but to suggest that it's not relevant ignores the thousands of raw comic transactions that take place every day, not only on the internet but at shops and shows.

this

 

+1

 

I haven't walked into a con ever where a dealer didn't whip out an OPG to check valuation of a raw wall book. Ever...

 

 

 

+1 to all of the above.

 

 

I haven't walked into a con ever where a dealer didn't whip out an OPG to check valuation of a raw wall book. Ever...

 

Not only cons, but comic book stores too. Nearly every comic book store I have ever been to, including nowadays, uses OPG for their BA, SA, etc. Either the books are already marked by OPG prices, or they take it out the OPG right in front of me and make the price.

BTW, I also know dealers who price their slabbed comics by OPG.

So, yes, there are now alternatives on the Internet etc, but OPG is still used SO much.

 

Of course, the OPG has some flaws. I myself pointed that out in an earlier post. But that doesn't mean it's not relevant. And it doesn't mean it is flawed for all of its pricing - far from it. I find that it is very useful the great majority of the time.

 

And to say that it is not relevant because of its flaws is very much missing the point. It is relevant, despite its flaws, because it is used so much! And, because it actually is very useful.

 

I myself use it almost every day.

 

I wouldn't say it is still relevant. I would say it is indispensable.

And that's when looking at it as just a price guide.

But it is so much more than just a price guide, that it really is indispensable.

 

 

 

+1 to all the above

 

It is interesting that people talk about "multiples of guide".

 

This would indicate that guide is still being used as a reference.

 

If I buy a collection of Bronze and I want to pick the key books out of a run I am not familiar with, where else would I look? Seems fairly relevant.

 

If I pick up some obscure GA book and want to get a rough idea of its value quickly, where else would I look?