Should CGC consider eye appeal more strongly in their grading ?

[Bomber-Bob]

Okay, nobody knows the 'official' grading criteria used by CGC. From what I can ascertain their grading criteria is constantly evolving. There is just no way they are grading by the same rules as when they first opened for business. Some of the criteria, like how they treat tape, have been publicly announced. Other criteria, like tolerance for staple tears, have probably just unofficially happened. I just saw a thread for coins asking the question 'Is the grading system changing based on eye appeal?'. For coins, it appears eye appeal is already taken into account and the thread suggests even more of late. Also, apparently there is a '*' designator for eye appeal, like a CVS sticker ? I think it is time for CGC to evolve and more strongly base their grading on eye appeal.

Some specific criteria like...

- Cover colors. CGC hammers faded cover colors, why not reward strong, bright colors ?

- Bone White Pages. Though it should be used sparingly, reward the Whitest of the white.

- Quality of Production - This is long ovedue. Hammer those white stripes !

- Bindery Problems - Here CGC is usually tolerant about bindery issues like chips and creases. I say treat them all the same. No more guessing, downgrade them all. There is an old tale on the Boards where a Boardie removed a dangling chip and received a higher grade because CGC thought it was bindery. This should never happen, it's just wrong.

- Alignment - It's time for CGC to downgrade for fanning paper on the right edge. Whether natural or not, they should not be allowed in the higher grades.

- Rusty Staples - While I'm sure CGC downgrades for rust, it should do so more strongly

 

Anyway, you can see where I am going with this. Fugly books should be graded as such. Pretty books should be rewarded. Thoughts ?

[Brian48]

PSA has always factored in eye appeal in their grading. It's worked well enough in that hobby.

[Ghost Town]

I've always been a little puzzled by how much CGC downgrades books for small or nearly imperceptible stains while being pretty generous to books with tanning, dust shadows, and halos. I've seen some books in 9.4 holders with heavy tanning that's evident right through the covers. Same thing for dust shadows. But then I've seen gorgeous books hammered for a tiny water mark that you can only see when you hold the book at just the right angle under a high-powered halogen lamp.

 

That aside, I can understand why CGC doesn't downgrade much for things like slight mis-cuts, fanned pages and less than perfect centering. Collectors can see that stuff on any decent scan and we all have different levels of tolerance for those things.

[makeminemego]

I could get on board with everything on the list, although some of them, like bindery and production issues, may be more applicable to books in the 7.5 and higher range. That's obviously debatable though.

 

I couldn't agree more about the rusty staples. Drives me crazy. A book that is structurally a 5.0 ceases to be a 5.0 when the staples are covered in rust......

 

Half of the time, they don't even notate staple rust on grader's notes.

[dupont2005]

No. You don't need an expert grader to tell you if something has eye appeal. The grade is to let you know what's in between that cover leaf.

[01TheDude]

eye appeal varies by the individual - too subjective to grade

 

plus if you start trying to change established grading, all older grading is suddenly non-standard. no?

[namisgr]

I've always been a little puzzled by how much CGC downgrades books for small or nearly imperceptible stains while being pretty generous to books with tanning, dust shadows, and halos. I've seen some books in 9.4 holders with heavy tanning that's evident right through the covers. Same thing for dust shadows. But then I've seen gorgeous books hammered for a tiny water mark that you can only see when you hold the book at just the right angle under a high-powered halogen lamp.

 

That aside, I can understand why CGC doesn't downgrade much for things like slight mis-cuts, fanned pages and less than perfect centering. Collectors can see that stuff on any decent scan and we all have different levels of tolerance for those things.

+1

 

Paper preservation was a major contributor to grade in the days before CGC, and things like interior cover tanning/yellowing or exterior edge tanning were considered highly significant defects. The interior ones aren't visible once a book has been encapsulated, making collectors dependent on CGC to factor them into the overall grade.

 

 

[H0RR0RSH0W]

No. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Without going too much into it I can see a couple of flaws with downgrading what are typically production flaws.

 

Production and technology have evolved over time. So it would be evident that newer comics would have better centering, little fanning, fewer printer smudges etc...Therefore if the new rules applied then newer books would get only high grades. Well they already do to anyone concerned. Don't forget CGC takes direct submissions from pubs if I am not mistaken. So old books would get only low grades. This could make the newer books worth even less.

 

Second the grade it receives is just that , a grade on the condition. A measurement of the things done to the book over time.Those grading standards are well established over time. Anyone trying to radically change that would create a heap of problems. What that would do to re-submissions is a nightmare.

 

Further sellers already get premiums on eye appeal. It is already acknowledged by a second party. Page quality is already considered more desirable. If it you to think a book gets 2 bumps in grade for high PQ then you are gonna get burned.

 

All books may not be created equal but they need to be placed on a level playing field. I think CGC does a good job of it.

[rodan57]

No. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Without going too much into it I can see a couple of flaws with downgrading what are typically production flaws.

 

Production and technology have evolved over time. So it would be evident that newer comics would have better centering, little fanning, fewer printer smudges etc...Therefore if the new rules applied then newer books would get only high grades. Well they already do to anyone concerned. Don't forget CGC takes direct submissions from pubs if I am not mistaken. So old books would get only low grades. This could make the newer books worth even less.

 

Second the grade it receives is just that , a grade on the condition. A measurement of the things done to the book over time.Those grading standards are well established over time. Anyone trying to radically change that would create a heap of problems. What that would do to re-submissions is a nightmare.

 

Further sellers already get premiums on eye appeal. It is already acknowledged by a second party. Page quality is already considered more desirable. If it you to think a book gets 2 bumps in grade for high PQ then you are gonna get burned.

 

All books may not be created equal but they need to be placed on a level playing field. I think CGC does a good job of it.

 

Interesting post.

 

If I might play devil's advocate --- if you were grading two raw books and they were identical in structure except that one had clearly white pages and one had cream pages -- would you give them the same grade?

[mysterio]

No. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Without going too much into it I can see a couple of flaws with downgrading what are typically production flaws.

 

Production and technology have evolved over time. So it would be evident that newer comics would have better centering, little fanning, fewer printer smudges etc...Therefore if the new rules applied then newer books would get only high grades. Well they already do to anyone concerned. Don't forget CGC takes direct submissions from pubs if I am not mistaken. So old books would get only low grades. This could make the newer books worth even less.

 

Second the grade it receives is just that , a grade on the condition. A measurement of the things done to the book over time.Those grading standards are well established over time. Anyone trying to radically change that would create a heap of problems. What that would do to re-submissions is a nightmare.

 

Further sellers already get premiums on eye appeal. It is already acknowledged by a second party. Page quality is already considered more desirable. If it you to think a book gets 2 bumps in grade for high PQ then you are gonna get burned.

 

All books may not be created equal but they need to be placed on a level playing field. I think CGC does a good job of it.

 

Interesting post.

 

If I might play devil's advocate --- if you were grading two raw books and they were identical in structure except that one had clearly white pages and one had cream pages -- would you give them the same grade?

 

To play further devil's advocate, my interpretation of your query is more like "would you give them the same grade or assign them the same value"? If the books are similar structurally they'd get the same grade, but the one with whiter PQ could certainly be the more desirable copy. The PQ designation on the label serves this purpose, and books with higher PQ do typically get a premium (though sometimes it is more like CR-OW don't fare as well as OW-W books do).

 

FWIW, I tend to be in the camp that the grade is all about structural preservation, and eye appeal/attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder.

[H0RR0RSH0W]

No. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Without going too much into it I can see a couple of flaws with downgrading what are typically production flaws.

 

Production and technology have evolved over time. So it would be evident that newer comics would have better centering, little fanning, fewer printer smudges etc...Therefore if the new rules applied then newer books would get only high grades. Well they already do to anyone concerned. Don't forget CGC takes direct submissions from pubs if I am not mistaken. So old books would get only low grades. This could make the newer books worth even less.

 

Second the grade it receives is just that , a grade on the condition. A measurement of the things done to the book over time.Those grading standards are well established over time. Anyone trying to radically change that would create a heap of problems. What that would do to re-submissions is a nightmare.

 

Further sellers already get premiums on eye appeal. It is already acknowledged by a second party. Page quality is already considered more desirable. If it you to think a book gets 2 bumps in grade for high PQ then you are gonna get burned.

 

 

All books may not be created equal but they need to be placed on a level playing field. I think CGC does a good job of it.

 

Interesting post.

 

If I might play devil's advocate --- if you were grading two raw books and they were identical in structure except that one had clearly white pages and one had cream pages -- would you give them the same grade?

 

 

I have gotten into this discussion before .I would personally say that the whiter pages would not have a lot of weight. Some pull but not a lot. (.2) at most maybe. Cream to white is a notable difference but not .2 for every PQ change from brown to tan to white and all in between.

 

I would first wonder what happened to the book that it cured differently. Was it washed?

 

A professional grader can look at certain things and assign a certain grade weight to it. They can choose to ignore certain things as well . I mean look at the scale , it moves in .2 increments at the top but .5 at the middle and bottom.

 

So to answer the question : yes i suppose for the most part. If it was a 9.4 with cream vs. a 9.4 with brilliant white I would prefer the white for the fact the book has greater preservation potential. In sparing instances maybe the white could get bumped to 9.6. But a 1.0 vs. a 3.0 just for white pages; no way. Never.

 

In terms of raw books this is an unlikely situation due to the fact that when one aspect of a book ages other aspects will follow. Frankly I would therefore be suspicious of a book that has any one feature that stands out.

 

PQ is not a production flaw. I feel that unless we are looking at PQ on HG GA books this is a matter of fighting for scraps.

[H0RR0RSH0W]

 

To play further devil's advocate, my interpretation of your query is more like "would you give them the same grade or assign them the same value"? If the books are similar structurally they'd get the same grade, but the one with whiter PQ could certainly be the more desirable copy. The PQ designation on the label serves this purpose, and books with higher PQ do typically get a premium (though sometimes it is more like CR-OW don't fare as well as OW-W books do).

 

FWIW, I tend to be in the camp that the grade is all about structural preservation, and eye appeal/attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder.

 

The PQ notation on the CGC does serve a purpose, yes.

 

Would I give them the same value? Is that selling or buying? I know the market places a premium on eye appeal. Eye appeal can and does sell for more. It depends what the market will bare.

 

However in terms of structure woudln't a tan book be so to speak further on in terms of progressing towards brittle( therefore splitting,etc...) than a white book(supple,firm, etc...)

[FineCollector]

However in terms of structure woudln't a tan book be so to speak further on in terms of progressing towards brittle( therefore splitting,etc...) than a white book(supple,firm, etc...)

 

You don't grade a book for what will be, you grade it for what is, whether it be rust, tanning, pieces almost off, staples almost off, or other.

[jcjames]

 

 

Trimming: It is significant damage to the edges of the book. It's not conservation -- you're certainly not conserving the original dimensions of the book. It's not restoration - you're not restoring the corners, you're cutting them off and throwing the corners and edges away. It's not "apparent" anything - it's a "deliberate destruction and loss of a significant portion of the book" No different than saying "Hey look at that tear on pg 18, I'm just going to rip the whole page out and the tear will be gone".

 

 

 

[batman_fan]

I would like it if they would just grade the book in front of them rather than try to ascertain whether a particular defect occurred during the manufacturing process and is therefore excluded from downgrading. I also wish they would remove the gray zone stuff like a little color touch or glue is okay on "cool" books but not "uncool" books. And don't get me started on tape

[H0RR0RSH0W]

 

Trimming: It is significant damage to the edges of the book. It's not conservation -- you're certainly not conserving the original dimensions of the book. It's not restoration - you're not restoring the corners, you're cutting them off and throwing the corners and edges away. It's not "apparent" anything - it's a "deliberate destruction and loss of a significant portion of the book" No different than saying "Hey look at that tear on pg 18, I'm just going to rip the whole page out and the tear will be gone".

 

 

So you mean you would't cut off your nose to spite your face???

 

 

 

I would like it if they would just grade the book in front of them rather than try to ascertain whether a particular defect occurred during the manufacturing process and is therefore excluded from downgrading. I also wish they would remove the gray zone stuff like a little color touch or glue is okay on "cool" books but not "uncool" books. And don't get me started on tape

 

These are both mainly restoration issues. Trimming is severe and it should be treated as such.

 

Manufacturing has improved over the last 100 years. If they allowed this then all new books would be mint and most old books would be further down graded. Its the only way to level the playing field and be fair. Some books would never get a chance at life if it were that way.

[Bomber-Bob]

 

plus if you start trying to change established grading, all older grading is suddenly non-standard. no?

 

It already has changed. Books graded today are graded by a different standard. They officially changed the standards for tape. Staple tears are now acceptable, small but visible color breaking corner creases are now acceptable on higher grades. Different head graders with different tolerance levels change the standards. Not radically but they do change, better word 'evolve'.

Certain pedigrees are no longer recognized. If you resub a Diamond run, Circle 8, Mile High II you will not get the recognition on the label.

[Davenport]

Curb appeal takes care of itself.

And not having "Grade" focused on actual, factual irreversible damage renders "Grade" almost meaningless.

 

Deducting harshly for a comic book's non-permanent attributes ignores reality in favor of point-in-time gambling opportunities.

[zosocane]

Why not create a company that supplements the CGC grade by placing a non-obtrusive sticker at the top of the slab only if a particular book truly has strong eye appeal? Wouldn't that be a solution?

[blazingbob]

You mean Can't Verify Anything through the slab?

 

I believe they already exist