Chuck explains his Mile High pricing

[Tony S]

I think most people are jealous of the Mile High find but I'd think people have let it go a long time ago. In my opinion it's Chuck's in your face sales tactics (newsletters and inflated prices with a 70% discount) are what push people way from him. There are guys who find big collections every year and they make a killing but they go about their business quietly and people don't seem to hold the grudge with them compared to Chuck.

 

Received an email "news blast" type thingy today. Chuck has now "slashed prices" on all inventory. No sale, no secret code word.

 

Looked at a book i purchased a few months ago - and the new price is about what I paid minus the 60% sale in effect at the time.

 

Quote:

 

"If you missed my announcement in last Friday's local newsletter, we slashed almost all of our website prices for you on Thursday evening. Our pricing change is so radical that a great many of our back issue comics prices dropped by more than half. All of our trade paperback and hardback book prices were slashed for you too. Visit our website today, and you will see the lowest prices that we have been able to offer in many years"

 

"In case you are wondering, my rationale for this radical departure from our past pricing revolves around the recent completion of a huge sorting area within our Jason St. Mega-Store. I explain this process a bit better in the video that I shot today, and had posted to YouTube for you. The basic premise is simply that we can now sort back issues faster than the online orders that we receive from our website will deplete us. As long as that continues to be true, we will keep our comics prices at these same very low levels. Please enjoy these great prices with our sincere thanks for your continuing support of Mile High Comics."

 

Youtube video

 

[1Cool]

I think most people are jealous of the Mile High find but I'd think people have let it go a long time ago. In my opinion it's Chuck's in your face sales tactics (newsletters and inflated prices with a 70% discount) are what push people way from him. There are guys who find big collections every year and they make a killing but they go about their business quietly and people don't seem to hold the grudge with them compared to Chuck.

 

Received an email "news blast" type thingy today. Chuck has now "slashed prices" on all inventory. No sale, no secret code word.

 

Looked at a book i purchased a few months ago - and the new price is about what I paid minus the 60% sale in effect at the time.

 

Quote:

 

"If you missed my announcement in last Friday's local newsletter, we slashed almost all of our website prices for you on Thursday evening. Our pricing change is so radical that a great many of our back issue comics prices dropped by more than half. All of our trade paperback and hardback book prices were slashed for you too. Visit our website today, and you will see the lowest prices that we have been able to offer in many years"

 

"In case you are wondering, my rationale for this radical departure from our past pricing revolves around the recent completion of a huge sorting area within our Jason St. Mega-Store. I explain this process a bit better in the video that I shot today, and had posted to YouTube for you. The basic premise is simply that we can now sort back issues faster than the online orders that we receive from our website will deplete us. As long as that continues to be true, we will keep our comics prices at these same very low levels. Please enjoy these great prices with our sincere thanks for your continuing support of Mile High Comics."

 

Youtube video

 

 

I other words his sales are nowhere near equal to the huge stock of books in his warehouse. Please please please buy our books.

[thunsicker]

Yep, I hate Chuck for holding that gun to those collectors heads, forcing them to pay triple what the guide called for.

 

You're missing my point. I was merely saying the animosity towards Chuck was due to the price he was charging, not towards what he paid. In today's market it would appear that his buy was the egregious part of the deal. At the time it was the prices he was charging that got people up in arms. Even in the late 80's when I had my store I wasn't buying for 20% of what I could sell for. Because that was a lot of money tied up in something that might move in a year at full guide versus the new comics I could buy for 50% and turn over in a week. I don't necessarily think he was in the wrong on either count. Just ahead of his time on pricing for premium goods.

 

Now his goods aren't the premium goods and he's still trying to charge more. That's why there is resistance now.

[shadroch]

I may be wrong, but I don't think most of the collector hate is due to the smoking deal Chuck got. Almost everyone was paying pennies on the dollar before the internet. Sure, if someone had a collection like the Church collection and asked for more they got it, but no one offered 50% or even 20% of guide as a starting position.

 

I think most of the animosity is due to the fact that he immediately starting charging double to triple guide for those smoking hot issues. Were they worth it? In hindsight, yes. They were undoubtedly the nicest issues of many comics that were out there. But, at the time, most comic store business models were to buy low and sell at guide.

 

Now, when most comic stores buy at 70% of guide or higher and sell at a premium, people look at the deal and say he ripped off the Church family. Then it was that he was ripping off collectors.

 

Please point me to a store that will pay me 70% of guide for my books. I'm not talking about last months books. Find me a store that pays 70% of guide for most books that pass thru its doors. When I called around to move a 1,000 plus BA collection that was almost all VF or better, most stores only wanted to cherry pick. One dealer ,with whom I have a long time relationship, told me 25 cents cash, or 40 cents credit. for the collection. Larger places only buy 5% of the books ever published, it seems. One place offered to take it on consignment, but wanted $5 per book consignment fee.

In many cases, its worse than the 1980s, as many stores have little or no space devoted to back issues.

[thunsicker]

I may be wrong, but I don't think most of the collector hate is due to the smoking deal Chuck got. Almost everyone was paying pennies on the dollar before the internet. Sure, if someone had a collection like the Church collection and asked for more they got it, but no one offered 50% or even 20% of guide as a starting position.

 

I think most of the animosity is due to the fact that he immediately starting charging double to triple guide for those smoking hot issues. Were they worth it? In hindsight, yes. They were undoubtedly the nicest issues of many comics that were out there. But, at the time, most comic store business models were to buy low and sell at guide.

 

Now, when most comic stores buy at 70% of guide or higher and sell at a premium, people look at the deal and say he ripped off the Church family. Then it was that he was ripping off collectors.

 

Please point me to a store that will pay me 70% of guide for my books. I'm not talking about last months books. Find me a store that pays 70% of guide for most books that pass thru its doors. When I called around to move a 1,000 plus BA collection that was almost all VF or better, most stores only wanted to cherry pick. One dealer ,with whom I have a long time relationship, told me 25 cents cash, or 40 cents credit. for the collection. Larger places only buy 5% of the books ever published, it seems. One place offered to take it on consignment, but wanted $5 per book consignment fee.

In many cases, its worse than the 1980s, as many stores have little or no space devoted to back issues.

 

You point me to a collection like the Mile High and I'll point you to a dealer who pays 70% of guide.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Thanks for the information about the Bethlehem collection. I had no knowledge of that. I am sure that some people have negative views of Chuck Rozanski's dealings because of jealousy. Some probably see it as a negative extension of the Chuck Rozanski they know now who sells books at a high price and has a bombastic newsletter.

 

Certainly, he is not the only person who was in the hobby in the 1970s who would have acted that way given the chance. Some of those people are resented as well. Gerry Ross has threatened (but as far as I know not followed through with) a lawsuit over what has been said about him on this thread. Bob Chrestohl came on to this thread not so much to deny what was being said, but to discuss it.

 

As a boy of about 13 I listened to George Henderson who owned Memory Lane in Toronto tell a person his own age (and I paraphrase), "A man came in here yesterday with a box of golden age. I offered him two dollars a book but he thought I was offering two dollars for the box. I didn't set him straight". That was about 1968. George ran a marginal business in a scuzzy section of town that dealt primarily in nickel and dime comics. It seemed to be a case of "never give a suck an even break or wise up a mark".

 

Chuck Rozanski was far from being the only one. But he made the best score of them all so he is put under greater scrutiny.

 

You know, no offense, because I don't know you, and have nothing against you, but all your posts in this thread have been marked with barely concealed resentment. You've come within a hair's breadth of implying that Chuck "stole" the books from the Church family , you haven't directly responded to anything I've said to you or answered any of my questions, and you keep comparing Chuck's buying of the Church collection with actual acts of bad faith (though, of course, many of the specific details of such "acts", and the other sides of those stories, are not mentioned), as if the conclusion that Chuck ALSO acted in bad faith is foregone.

 

But here's the reality: you weren't there. You don't know how the deal with the Church family was made. You only have Chuck's story, and there's nothing in Chuck's story that even hints that the Church family was coerced or tricked into a deal. No one held a gun to their heads. They agreed to the deal. They wanted the stuff GONE.

 

That the books were worth more money at the time is irrelevant. That the books became worth a lot more money is irrelevant. A deal was struck, both parties were happy, and, most importantly, both parties got benefit out of the deal that they wouldn't otherwise have had. That's a GOOD deal. Once you start parsing the deal into "well, they could have made so much more" and "well, Chuck should have offered them thus and such amount", you completely ignore the context of the deal (and it is quite substantial), and try to apply standards that no one, at any time could have done in the same position.

 

"Chuck should have paid more!" How much more?

 

"The Church family didn't know what they had!" And how is that not their responsibility?

 

"Chuck should have told them what they had!" According to Chuck, he DID. They didn't CARE.

 

Here are Chuck's own words:

 

Once I had gotten a pretty good gauge of what was on the floor (about 60 stacks), I asked how much was being sought for the collection. It was at that point that it was made clear to me that it was not a question of how much I was willing to pay, but rather if I was willing to take them "all." I told the sellers that I was more than willing to take all the books, but that we would have to either make payment arrangements, or that I could sell the comics for them on consignment. Both of these proposals were immediately rejected out of hand, even after I had shown the sellers collector prices for old comics in an Overstreet that I had brought along. They were emphatic that they wanted nothing to do with the sales process, and that they wanted immediate payment. I explained to them that I had limited resources available to me for an immediate purchase, and they said "just make us an offer..."

 

Is Chuck lying to make himself sound better? Maybe. But it sure sounds consistent with everything we know about the comics collecting situation of the 1970's.

 

Did the Church family, once they sniffed money, try to sue Chuck? Yes. Did they lose? Yes, and in a civil case, the standard is not "beyond a reasonable doubt", but a "preponderance of the evidence." The Church family could not convince a judge that Chuck had acted in bad faith. They lost.

 

The Church family was so NOT taken advantage of, they called Chuck back multiple times, to buy more stuff.

 

Did the Church family have responsibility for finding out what Edgar's stuff was then worth? You better believe it. How hard would it have been for them to open up the yellow pages, find a "used book store", call them up and say "Hi...what is thus and such worth?"

 

But they didn't, because they didn't want to. They just wanted it gone. And this, despite the fact that they DID call dealers to look at the collection before Chuck, and by Chuck's own testimony, he TRIED to show them the values, and they weren't interested.

 

You may resent Chuck for the deal. Lots of people do. But the fact remains: the Church family had called around, and tried to get others to come out. They were in the process of throwing it all out. Chuck was the one who did come. In the process, Chuck discovered and rescued the most extensive and well preserved collection of these items that has ever been found, and most likely has ever existed.

 

Yes, Chuck's company routinely overgrades its back issues. Yes, he charges beyond ridiculous prices for much of his stock. None of that, however, has anything to do with the Church collection and Chuck's acquisition of it

 

And that you keep trying to compare the Church sale with actual acts of bad faith like "I said $2/book, but he thought I said $2 for the whole box, and I didn't correct him!" and Gerry Ross, who routinely sold restored books to buyers without disclosing that fact, is the most serious and unfounded claim against Chuck that has been made in this entire thread.

 

And this, coming from someone who has posted repeatedly about how people should treat people fairly....? You've treated Chuck the most unfairly of all. Everyone else complaining about his "bombastic" persona, silly high prices, and overgrading at least has some EVIDENCE to prove their complaints. You have none, and that hasn't stopped you at all from the barely concealed accusation.

 

:shrug:

 

It boggles the mind.

 

Perspective is in very, very short supply. This oft-repeated mantra, that Chuck behaved unethically in the Church transaction, has really got to end until and IF evidence to the contrary is produced.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The idea that "selling for 2 to 3 times guide was UNHEARD of!", as if the OPG was inviolate, is another example of applying 21st century reasoning to mid to late 20th century activity.

 

The OPG wasn't even 7 years old when Chuck found the Church collection. Had it quickly become "the standard"? Of course. But that was because A. there was nothing else that anyone was doing, and B. the comics market was still in formative stages. To express shock and outrage at being "ripped off" that people "dared" to charge more than "Guide"...as if Bob Overstreet was the end-all, be-all of pricing by 1977....again, it was still just a guide.

 

Yes, there were people who were annoyed that Chuck was charging "more than what the guide says it's worth!!"...and those people were shortsighted and jealous. I'm sure some of the buyers wished they could have paid less, but those who sucked it up and did pay Chuck's prices didn't do so badly for themselves after all...and I suspect some, more farsighted than their comic collecting contemporaries, were thrilled to pay what it took to get these books.

 

"Well, the GUIDE says Adventure Comics #57 is only worth $70, no WAY am I paying $150 for it!"

 

And how did that work out for them...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way....something to consider is this: Church had very few multiples of anything. Mostly it was just the one copy.

 

What if, however, Church or one of his contemporaries had purchased multiple copies (truly a thing unheard of) and done the same thing...?

 

Would pedigrees be thought of in the same way? Who knows?

 

[jimjum12]

The idea that "selling for 2 to 3 times guide was UNHEARD of!", as if the OPG was inviolate, is another example of applying 21st century reasoning to mid to late 20th century activity.

 

The OPG wasn't even 7 years old when Chuck found the Church collection. Had it quickly become "the standard"? Of course. But that was because A. there was nothing else that anyone was doing, and B. the comics market was still in formative stages. To express shock and outrage at being "ripped off" that people "dared" to charge more than "Guide"...as if Bob Overstreet was the end-all, be-all of pricing by 1977....again, it was still just a guide.

 

Yes, there were people who were annoyed that Chuck was charging "more than what the guide says it's worth!!"...and those people were shortsighted and jealous. I'm sure some of the buyers wished they could have paid less, but those who sucked it up and did pay Chuck's prices didn't do so badly for themselves after all...and I suspect some, more farsighted than their comic collecting contemporaries, were thrilled to pay what it took to get these books.

 

"Well, the GUIDE says Adventure Comics #57 is only worth $70, no WAY am I paying $150 for it!"

 

And how did that work out for them...?

 

....the Carter brothers AND their Father were scrambling to sell things they had and mortgaging their homes to buy these "overpriced" books......and these were guys used to snagging books for a couple dollars apiece. They ended up spending 44 thousand dollars on Church books..... and they were anything but stupid. Still, it took Chuck many years to really start making a dent in the collection. Aside from the Carters and a few others it wasn't quite the feeding frenzy that many envision. Chuck sold a lot of the cheaper, cooler stuff at a few cons, but there was tons left unsold. This was likely to be his one and only shot at the brass ring...and he grabbed it. I always got the impression that the heirs were demanding, impatient, and arrogant.....and were scrambling to liquidate everything they could to avoid Estate Taxes. Would I have gone back later and given them more money ? Perhaps..... but it would have been in an anonymous fashion.....to avoid the appearance of misappropriation . GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

.....the heirs got what they agreed to, in full.

[wombat]

So when books were sold off was there something that identified them as part of the "church" collection? How would that be proven later?

[jimjum12]

So when books were sold off was there something that identified them as part of the "church" collection? How would that be proven later?

 

....many weren't. People still find them in the wild today. Many of the earlier ones have a unique distributor code while almost all have a distinct cedar aroma that helps to identify. I used to think that had to be BS until I smelled a couple. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

You point me to a collection like the Mile High and I'll point you to a dealer who pays 70% of guide.

 

Pointing to someone with a Church type collection today is very different than someone with a Church type collection 40 years ago.

 

40 years ago they were nerd culture. 40 years ago I got beat up for collecting comics. 40 years ago my parents threw them out because they were considered bad for kids.

 

Collectibles go through growth.

 

Ferrari's, Gibson Les Paul's and other collectibles were not million dollar items 40 years ago. Those markets needed to mature.

 

I don't think anybody was paying 70% of Guide for comic collections 40 years ago or paying 70% of FMV for other collectibles in a market that had not yet matured.

 

 

 

 

[wombat]

So when books were sold off was there something that identified them as part of the "church" collection? How would that be proven later?

 

....many weren't. People still find them in the wild today. Many of the earlier ones have a unique distributor code while almost all have a distinct cedar aroma that helps to identify. I used to think that had to be BS until I smelled a couple. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Very interesting. Thanks.

[jimjum12]

You point me to a collection like the Mile High and I'll point you to a dealer who pays 70% of guide.

 

Pointing to someone with a Church type collection today is very different than someone with a Church type collection 40 years ago.

 

40 years ago they were nerd culture. 40 years ago I got beat up for collecting comics. 40 years ago my parents threw them out because they were considered bad for kids.

 

Collectibles go through growth.

 

Ferrari's, Gibson Les Paul's and other collectibles were not million dollar items 40 years ago. Those markets needed to mature.

 

I don't think anybody was paying 70% of Guide for comic collections 40 years ago or paying 70% of FMV for other collectibles in a market that had not yet matured.

 

 

 

 

.....Exactly......NO one paid 70% back then with the exception of maybe Jay Maybruck.... and he was cherry picking dealer's best material before show time.... which was very astute of him and paid off handsomely. Most folks paid between 10- 35% of OPG ...... and sometimes it wasn't even the newest OPG GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[ttfitz]

I always got the impression that the heirs were demanding, impatient, and arrogant.....and were scrambling to liquidate everything they could to avoid Estate Taxes.

 

That's the part I always think of when people talk about how Chuck could have gone back later and given them more. I get the same impression you do, and that Chuck didn't much care for their attitude about their father's collection - and REALLY didn't care for them much when he found out the father was still alive.

 

If what he says is true, I don't think I would have gone back later to give them more, either - and I'm the kind that is inclined to do that if I find something is worth much more than I knew when I bought it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Frankly, the Church heirs didn't deserve what they got; they clearly had nothing but contempt and disrespect for something that obviously meant a great deal to Edgar, about which they couldn't be bothered to give a moment's thought more than was absolutely necessary to get rid of it all.

 

 

But that's just my opinion on the matter.

[thunsicker]

You point me to a collection like the Mile High and I'll point you to a dealer who pays 70% of guide.

 

Pointing to someone with a Church type collection today is very different than someone with a Church type collection 40 years ago.

 

40 years ago they were nerd culture. 40 years ago I got beat up for collecting comics. 40 years ago my parents threw them out because they were considered bad for kids.

 

Collectibles go through growth.

 

Ferrari's, Gibson Les Paul's and other collectibles were not million dollar items 40 years ago. Those markets needed to mature.

 

I don't think anybody was paying 70% of Guide for comic collections 40 years ago or paying 70% of FMV for other collectibles in a market that had not yet matured.

 

 

 

 

Which is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread. These super collections which are going for 70% of guide now were going for pennies on the dollar in the 70's. shadrock just asked me who would pay 70% of guide now on a collection and the quote you quoted was just me clarifying that I meant on a collection of this type.

[roach04]

Anybody else have "big garbage day"? The day you can put out the old couch, BBQ, whatever? And on that day there are always a couple of guys driving around picking up said garbage for their own use.

 

The Church kids wanted those comics out to the curb. And it's really improbable that anybody would've saved them from the dump. Chuck did. And paid for them too!

 

That's how I have always viewed that deal.

[H0RR0RSH0W]

An anagram of "hustrucked" is "huckstured."

 

 

That is very interesting Chip; I had not realized that

[Robot Man]

Anybody else have "big garbage day"? The day you can put out the old couch, BBQ, whatever? And on that day there are always a couple of guys driving around picking up said garbage for their own use.

 

The Church kids wanted those comics out to the curb. And it's really improbable that anybody would've saved them from the dump. Chuck did. And paid for them too!

 

That's how I have always viewed that deal.

 

That is exactly where Bang Zoom's incredible collection originated from (the curb)