Are Restored Books Really Such a Bad Thing??

[nearmint]

Does anyone know why they considered green marker on white CT?

 

Can't imagine. I'd PM PLITCH about it.

[dupont2005]

I wish someone would ask GCG about this-if covering small dots of CT with silver sharpie would get universal this could really help a lot of people-it's so unfair such a small dot drops value so dramatically

CGC doesn't set prices, the market does.

 

If CGC wrote "this book sucks because some creep did color touch on it" you could still say that CGC doesn't set the market. But it wouldn't change the fact that such a label aims to set buyer opinions on the book. And buyer opinions impact the market.

That's not what CGC put on the label though. They're providing the service as advertised, and detecting restoration is literally the main reason they exist. They do it impartially and without motive. They can't control what buyers do and don't like or what the market commands. You think slight color touch is no big deal, I think a 9.9 is no big deal, but the market obviously does. And there's not much CGC can do about it. Now if they said "Restoration is bad, but not when it's on a comic Bluechip is selling" they'd no longer be impartial.

 

You know whose fault it is that the same exact comic with the same exact grade and same exact notes would sell for more if the label was a different color? Stupid people. Suckers. I don't think CGC should cater to that market. And color touch is NEVER conservation. It's really attempted fraud if it's not in a slab.

[the blob]

cgc could attempt to put a numerical value on how much resto there is, with something like trimming making it high, etc. of course, it would all be subjective, but i suspect if people had anothe rnumber in hand someone would come up with an equation... like a "1" resto (a small tear seal, dab of glue, whatever) only reduces the FMV by 10-15%, whereas a "10" resto (trimming, what have you) reducing it by 80%

[bluechip]

I wish someone would ask GCG about this-if covering small dots of CT with silver sharpie would get universal this could really help a lot of people-it's so unfair such a small dot drops value so dramatically

CGC doesn't set prices, the market does.

 

If CGC wrote "this book sucks because some creep did color touch on it" you could still say that CGC doesn't set the market. But it wouldn't change the fact that such a label aims to set buyer opinions on the book. And buyer opinions impact the market.

That's not what CGC put on the label though. They're providing the service as advertised, and detecting restoration is literally the main reason they exist. They do it impartially and without motive. They can't control what buyers do and don't like or what the market commands. You think slight color touch is no big deal, I think a 9.9 is no big deal, but the market obviously does. And there's not much CGC can do about it. Now if they said "Restoration is bad, but not when it's on a comic Bluechip is selling" they'd no longer be impartial.

 

You know whose fault it is that the same exact comic with the same exact grade and same exact notes would sell for more if the label was a different color? Stupid people. Suckers. I don't think CGC should cater to that market. And color touch is NEVER conservation. It's really attempted fraud if it's not in a slab.

 

When CGC, or anyone, attempts to differentiate a defect based on the intent behind it, that is expressing an opinion about the acceptability of an action, not about the severity of a defect. When anyone uses a word like "desecration" to describe an action, they are expressing an opinion and hoping others will act accordingly. I've heard folk at CGC uses the word "desecration" in regard to some resto and they've been very clear that color touch and glue are judged differently based on the perceived intent. And the idea that "restoration is bad, but not when it's on a comic ______ is selling" is something people here have expressed concern about because of the way some books from Mile High and other collections got a pass for bits of glue on the spine which got other books a purple label. As for my books, I've had some very high dollar books which were purple when I owned them and magically became blue after I sold them. And your "exact same label" scenario played out exactly the way you describe when a major key I had in a purple 1.5 label got acquired cheap by someone who subsequently got it into a 1.5 blue label and he multiplied his money.

 

In regard to your "I don't think CGC should cater to that market," that's a gordian knot of an argument. You say CGC shouldn't do anything to influence people's attitudes, then say that because you think people are stupid if they buy a book based on words rather than colored labels, that it's catering to stupid people ((as opposed to exploiting them or failing to serve them). It's a biarre series of statements that contradict each other. It is clear that while you're saying CGC doesn't influence the market, you believe they do and that it's what they should be doing. Just saying that would be a better argument and would not require embracing contradictions.

 

Finally, CGC itself has expressed the view that the purple label has had an outsized and unintended impact on buyer opinions, and has tried to address it with the conserved label. So when you say the label has had no impact on buyers you're contradicting them as well

[Dark Knight]

No restored books are not a bad thing. In fact they can be beneficial if done the right way to preserve and bring new life to a book. The new letter plus number combination on the degree of restoration was a great addition to restored cgc graded books. If I were spending thousands of dollars, I would want to know how much restoration was done and how professionally it was restored based on the letter/number system. It adds more depth and specificity than just calling it slight, moderate, or extensive.

[Doohickamabob]

No restored books are not a bad thing. In fact they can be beneficial if done the right way to preserve and bring new life to a book. The new letter plus number combination on the degree of restoration was a great addition to restored cgc graded books. If I were spending thousands of dollars, I would want to know how much restoration was done and how professionally it was restored based on the letter/number system. It adds more depth and specificity than just calling it slight, moderate, or extensive.

I agree that in some cases, restoration can be beneficial.

 

Here is an example from my collection, which I recently had graded. It's Plastic Man #1, and when I bought it raw, it had a huge tear up the middle one-third of the front cover. I was worried that every time I handled the comic, the tear might get a little worse whenever the cover flopped slightly.

 

I started reading more about restoration options, mainly because I just didn't want the cover to get any worse. The boardie named Ze-Man made the case that if the tear was not sealed, the exposed torn parts of the cover page would be oxidized or something that would alter their chemical composition. He explained it better than I could, but needless to say it was a convincing argument.

 

Also, the Plastic Man #1 was a strong candidate for tear-sealing because the cover page is pretty clean. I had another comic with a tear on the side of the cover, a copy of Namora #1, and I was similarly worried about it tearing more -- but this comic was very soiled, so it was not as good of a candidate for tear-sealing.

 

I decided to give restoration (tear-sealing) a try simply to preserve the comic for the long run. I sent Plastic Man #1, as well as Namora #1, to a professional restorer. The tears on each comic were sealed using some kind of wheat paste or other professional archival material that, if a person decided they didn't like the restoration, is potentially removable. I like the potential removability aspect simple because it makes it feel less like the comic is being permanently altered. It really is "conservation" in that sense.

 

The Plastic Man #1 tear-seal job came back looking spectacular. Though the tear is still visible if one looks hard, the page no longer flaps around if you hold the comic and read through it. It is not going to get worse from ordinary handling, and that is what I wanted. The Namora #1, however, still looked pretty rough even after the tear-sealing of the horizontal tear, due to the overall soiled condition of the comic's cover. The restorer said this upfront: This restoration job is harder and won't have as good of results due to the comic's condition. I accepted that.

 

I finally sent both comics to CGC a few months ago, and got them back. The Namora #1 came back as 3.0 Restored (purple label), and the restoration level is considered B-1, which indicates that it's average-level -- nothing fantastic, but also not amateurish either. The grader notes say "Archival material, average quality." The Plastic Man #1, however, came back with as 7.5 Conserved, with a combination blue and purple label. The grader notes say "Archival material, high quality," even though the same restoration process was used by the same restorer. I think that reflects on the results rather than the material.

 

I am very happy with the Conserved grade, and I think the label is much more attractive with the combined colors. I think the purple label is simply not as aesthetically pleasing to the eye. In retrospect, perhaps I would think twice next time before getting a lower-grade comic like Namora #1 restored or graded to begin with. But I would definitely get a higher-grade comic restored again in this way (tear seal) if it could come back as "Conserved."

 

Here is the Plastic Man #1 and how it looks with the Conserved label.

[dupont2005]

You say CGC shouldn't do anything to influence people's attitudes, then say that because you think people are stupid if they buy a book based on words rather than colored labels, that it's catering to stupid people ((as opposed to exploiting them or failing to serve them).

I actually said the opposite of that. Buy the book if you want the book. If your desire for the book is based on the label, then you're stupid. If half the purple labels all the sudden became orange, but the same exact comic was inside, and somehow their value changed, that's stupid.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, restored books are AWFUL, you should never, ever buy one, that way they can all be cheap for m....because they're AWFUL!!!

[Hammerhead]

Does anyone know why they considered green marker on white CT?

 

I'm with you and the poster with the Hulk comic. That should not be called restoration!? Odd....

[bluechip]

You say CGC shouldn't do anything to influence people's attitudes, then say that because you think people are stupid if they buy a book based on words rather than colored labels, that it's catering to stupid people ((as opposed to exploiting them or failing to serve them).

I actually said the opposite of that. Buy the book if you want the book. If your desire for the book is based on the label, then you're stupid. If half the purple labels all the sudden became orange, but the same exact comic was inside, and somehow their value changed, that's stupid.

 

Your post made it clear that you think people are stupid to want restored books in the first place because you feel that all restored books should be viewed as tied to some impure thought. If everyone felt that way then yes they would be stupid to want a book more if it wasn't labeled purple. But not everyone feels that way. Most people are inclined to care more about how much a book is damaged than they are about what somebody thinks another person might have been thinking when the damage occurred.

[BarryAllen]

[whetteon]

I prefer color touch to trim, but in the end its about obtaining books at crazy discounts .I've seen the gap close quite a bit lately. books that went for 20% of guide are now hitting 65-70%. Some of my best flips have been restored books. Certain audiences hate them, others don't mind them.

 

+1. I echo everything mentioned in this paragraph. (thumbs u

[skypinkblu]

I wish someone would ask GCG about this-if covering small dots of CT with silver sharpie would get universal this could really help a lot of people-it's so unfair such a small dot drops value so dramatically

CGC doesn't set prices, the market does.

 

If CGC wrote "this book sucks because some creep did color touch on it" you could still say that CGC doesn't set the market. But it wouldn't change the fact that such a label aims to set buyer opinions on the book. And buyer opinions impact the market.

That's not what CGC put on the label though. They're providing the service as advertised, and detecting restoration is literally the main reason they exist. They do it impartially and without motive. They can't control what buyers do and don't like or what the market commands. You think slight color touch is no big deal, I think a 9.9 is no big deal, but the market obviously does. And there's not much CGC can do about it. Now if they said "Restoration is bad, but not when it's on a comic Bluechip is selling" they'd no longer be impartial.

 

You know whose fault it is that the same exact comic with the same exact grade and same exact notes would sell for more if the label was a different color? Stupid people. Suckers. I don't think CGC should cater to that market. And color touch is NEVER conservation. It's really attempted fraud if it's not in a slab.

 

Actually, that's not exactly true. I have several very old books with amateur color touch. A few were owned by kids who were playing with crayons. and a few were from an original owner collection, where the owner (who kept them till he passed away, never sold them) was an amateur artist.

 

I used to "fix" my comics all the time when I was a kid. I used anything from tape, to glue, to nail polish and sometimes even tempora. I would change hair color, add beards, color in lines...sometimes in different colors;)

 

There was a time when these books were just toys.

 

As for trimming on new books, that I'd agree, it's meant to deceive, but there are all different levels of "restoration" .

[ttfitz]

I used to "fix" my comics all the time when I was a kid. I used anything from tape, to glue, to nail polish and sometimes even tempora. I would change hair color, add beards, color in lines...sometimes in different colors;)

 

From the "Timmy and Mark Signature Coverless Collection":

 

 

(Even Lois gets an occasional mustache in this one)

 

[Erndog]

I don't own any resto books but I'm certainly not dead set against it. Really depends on the type and amount of resto being down. Minimal CT I really couldn't care less about. Trim would be a no go for me.

 

At the end of the day, there are many really nice purple books out there, with minimal resto that go for great bargains (compared to their blue counterparts). Those books I actually look quite fondly on.

[H0RR0RSH0W]

 

From the "Timmy and Mark Signature Coverless Collection":

 

 

(Even Lois gets an occasional mustache in this one)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally my issue with a restored book is that I cannot get a clear idea of the value as compared to a blue label. It is harder to compare because there are less available examples. Last I checked Overstreet did not have a column for "purple labels" either. So although I am not against owning any in the future I would like to think others might understand my difficulty in making a purchase.

 

What's the formula?

 

With that said I would like to think at the farthest end of the spectrum the intentions of a restorative expert;someone like Ze-man( check out his amazing work in the restoration and production flaws thread) are very noble. It brings to life something that would otherwise be extinct. It resurrects a part of comic book histroy. At the other end there is what may or may not be an attempt to cover up a damaged book.

 

So I do not think that the stigma is justified. I would be all for owning a restored book, if the restoration was actually necessary .

[Azkaban]

I used to "fix" my comics all the time when I was a kid. I used anything from tape, to glue, to nail polish and sometimes even tempora. I would change hair color, add beards, color in lines...sometimes in different colors;)

 

From the "Timmy and Mark Signature Coverless Collection":

 

 

(Even Lois gets an occasional mustache in this one)

 

I think I've seen some from that collection

 

[ttfitz]

I used to "fix" my comics all the time when I was a kid. I used anything from tape, to glue, to nail polish and sometimes even tempora. I would change hair color, add beards, color in lines...sometimes in different colors;)

 

From the "Timmy and Mark Signature Coverless Collection":

 

 

(Even Lois gets an occasional mustache in this one)

 

I think I've seen some from that collection

 

Impossible! That is part of an OO collection, still locked away in a vault.

 

Best wishes,

 

Timmy

[dupont2005]

I wish someone would ask GCG about this-if covering small dots of CT with silver sharpie would get universal this could really help a lot of people-it's so unfair such a small dot drops value so dramatically

CGC doesn't set prices, the market does.

 

If CGC wrote "this book sucks because some creep did color touch on it" you could still say that CGC doesn't set the market. But it wouldn't change the fact that such a label aims to set buyer opinions on the book. And buyer opinions impact the market.

That's not what CGC put on the label though. They're providing the service as advertised, and detecting restoration is literally the main reason they exist. They do it impartially and without motive. They can't control what buyers do and don't like or what the market commands. You think slight color touch is no big deal, I think a 9.9 is no big deal, but the market obviously does. And there's not much CGC can do about it. Now if they said "Restoration is bad, but not when it's on a comic Bluechip is selling" they'd no longer be impartial.

 

You know whose fault it is that the same exact comic with the same exact grade and same exact notes would sell for more if the label was a different color? Stupid people. Suckers. I don't think CGC should cater to that market. And color touch is NEVER conservation. It's really attempted fraud if it's not in a slab.

 

Actually, that's not exactly true. I have several very old books with amateur color touch. A few were owned by kids who were playing with crayons. and a few were from an original owner collection, where the owner (who kept them till he passed away, never sold them) was an amateur artist.

 

I used to "fix" my comics all the time when I was a kid. I used anything from tape, to glue, to nail polish and sometimes even tempora. I would change hair color, add beards, color in lines...sometimes in different colors;)

 

There was a time when these books were just toys.

 

As for trimming on new books, that I'd agree, it's meant to deceive, but there are all different levels of "restoration" .

I just assume slight color touch is only found on high grade comics, not likely to have been stuff kids were scribbling in unless it was low grade. My old Groo comics need a whole lot more than color touch to be presentable, and those aren't half the age of a GA key.

[slym2none]

 

 

 

-slym