Top 10 silver age keys in 2015

[NinjaSealed]

SC4 to FF1 to AF15 as the most important SA key is really apple to oranges to grapes. There is no wrong answer. They are all extremely important books in the history of comics and all awesome.

[AlexanderM]

I agree with that. The historical importance of SC 4 has always been overstated. I've been collecting since the mid-70s and never felt it had a strong connection to the SA, even though cited as such in Overstreet. That book along with it's early 60s DC brethren have more in common with the Golden Age than Silver.

 

Agree a 100%. FF1 is more stylistically different than the GA signally an ushering in of a new era than anything DC put out in the mid-50s to early 60s.

 

So SC4 didn't really usher in the SA?

 

And Flash as a concept is not really new...

 

So.... why is SC4 then still so expensive?

 

Because it's the first appearance of a major DC character... :shrug:

 

So it's basically the equivalent of Marvel Premiere #47 (Avengers 181 for that matter). First appearance of a character, but not first appearance of the super-hero concept.

 

... I think most people tie it's value to ushering in an entire age... but you are saying it didn't really...

[RockMyAmadeus]

FF 1 over AF 15? Your not serious are you??

 

I'm dead serious.

The second list is my personal hierarchy, and I consider Fantastic Four #1 to be the most important Silver Age comic book. It wasn't that long ago that LOTS of other people agreed!

 

+1 If we're talking importance I would put FF #1 over AF #15. There is no doubt that AF #15 is the hotter book and worth more, but as for importance? I'd go with FF #1.

 

 

We have to define "importance" then. Importance to Marvel and the direction of the comic industry, sure. Importance of the character(s), no...not even close.

 

You can show a picture of Spiderman in one hand, and a picture of any of the FF in the other hand and ask any kid on the streets of Shanghai who the characters are...9 out of 10 will be able to name Spiderman...2 or 3 would probably be wearing a Spiderman shirt. You can't say the same for the FF.

 

So, TODAY, which one is more "important"?

You're describing popularity, not importance.

 

They are very very closely related.

 

FF1 is only important because it was a popular title. If no one had cared about FF1 - it would not be considered important at all.. because it would have had no impact.

 

A lot of blasphemy going on in this thread. AF 15 more important than FF1? Popular yes,more important no.

If FF1 failed sales wise,do you think we would even have a Spider man,Hulk,Thor or any other New character?

Odds are probably no.

 

Depending on which fuzzy memory you believe of Stan's, it was the success of FF that inspired Goodman to tell him to "do more superheroes."

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Showcase 4 leads to Showcase 6 15 22

Big move with Adventure 247 and Brave Bold 28

These lead to FF1 which opens the door to AF 15 and all the other Marvels.

 

So if importance is defined as what started it all, my vote is Showcase 4

As a character, Flash is probably as popular as FF, maybe a little less. Clearly 2nd tier as of today compared to Batman Superman or Spidey, and Xmen.

 

But AF 15 as a distinct comic is clearly #1.

 

FF1 is more important than AF 15 the way that New Comics 1 is more important than Action 1. Historically true, but c'mon man.

 

Yeah.

 

SC4 re-introduces an updated superhero. This becomes important and sets a first trend of reintroducing super-heroes by DC and Marvel.

 

BB28 then start the first successful super-hero team for many years. This becomes important because it starts the second trend. JLA1 even shows that superhero teams can do well in their own title, which Marvel then does with FF1.

 

Marvel follows up on both new trends and eg. creates FF1 which becomes a success and the start to Marvel's future successes.

Honestly, nothing new came out of DC in the early Silver Age. They recycled existing characters, and even the "team" didn't have an original name (Justice SocietyLeague of America). When Showcase 4 came out (1956, which is generally considered the Atom Age), DC still had numerous ongoing Superhero titles that had never ceased publication going back to the Golden Age.

 

Starting with FF 1, Marvel re-introduced super-heroes into their line by creating an entirely new universe of characters, a whole new mythos behind them, and a new way of story-telling. The characteristic of Spider-man that make him so popular (he's a kid with real kid problems) were universal to all the Marvel characters, starting with FF 1.

 

Challengers of the Unknown, Space Ranger, Rip Hunter, Suicide Squad...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

There was a reason Marvel Comics dominated the comic book industry in the 1960's - their lineup was new, different, exciting, and relatable to their target audience. (thumbs u

 

Marvel Comics didn't dominate the comic book industry in the 1960's.

 

DC was the #1 publisher until 1971. A Marvel title wouldn't even break the top 10 (#7) until 1969. DC ruled the Silver Age.

 

Unless you mean domination in some other sense.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Atlas tried to relaunch superheroes in the mid-50s, only a couple of years after they were cancelled.

 

They failed.

 

Showcase #4 did not.

 

Without Showcase #4, there is no DC Silver Age. Without DC's Silver Age, there may not have been a Marvel Silver Age.

 

The importance of Showcase #4 is hard to overstate, if only because it was the first success of a new era.

[vaillant]

Atlas tried to relaunch superheroes in the mid-50s, only a couple of years after they were cancelled.

 

They failed.

 

Showcase #4 did not.

 

Without Showcase #4, there is no DC Silver Age. Without DC's Silver Age, there may not have been a Marvel Silver Age.

 

The importance of Showcase #4 is hard to overstate, if only because it was the first success of a new era.

 

I do not discuss this: as an american you surely have a clearer view of the historical period.

 

But who would seriously compare what Marvel became from 1961 through the following decade with the DC titles? The Marvel age was something unique, as much there could have been great quality works in the DC titles the vision carried on by Stan Lee, and then by the second generation of writers, was a unified conception which cannot be compared with much else, IMO. :shrug:

 

I am just taking books with similar themes as a comparision: during the youth protests and counterculture years, younger writers which posed the problems of the times to the superheroes. Roy Thomas, not everything he did was excellent, but most Marvel stories dealing with these themes appear a lot more accomplished and convincing compared to DCs (including the acclaimed Green Lantern/Green Arrow run by O'Neill).

Books like Iron Man #45-46, Sub-Mariner #28, the first Warlock series, some Spider-Man stories… really, there was something additional going on with the Marvel age, compared to DC.

[Broke as a Joke]

Seriously, if it wasn't for Marvel in the 60's the superhero genre would be dead in the water. Thank god for FF1. SC 4 not so much.

[AlexanderM]

Atlas tried to relaunch superheroes in the mid-50s, only a couple of years after they were cancelled.

 

They failed.

 

Showcase #4 did not.

 

Without Showcase #4, there is no DC Silver Age. Without DC's Silver Age, there may not have been a Marvel Silver Age.

 

The importance of Showcase #4 is hard to overstate, if only because it was the first success of a new era.

 

I do not discuss this: as an american you surely have a clearer view of the historical period.

 

But who would seriously compare what Marvel became from 1961 through the following decade with the DC titles? The Marvel age was something unique, as much there could have been great quality works in the DC titles the vision carried on by Stan Lee, and then by the second generation of writers, was a unified conception which cannot be compared with much else, IMO. :shrug:

 

I am just taking books with similar themes as a comparision: during the youth protests and counterculture years, younger writers which posed the problems of the times to the superheroes. Roy Thomas, not everything he did was excellent, but most Marvel stories dealing with these themes appear a lot more accomplished and convincing compared to DCs (including the acclaimed Green Lantern/Green Arrow run by O'Neill).

Books like Iron Man #45-46, Sub-Mariner #28, the first Warlock series, some Spider-Man stories… really, there was something additional going on with the Marvel age, compared to DC.

 

My 2 cents is that certainly Marvel often had a unique and different feel to DC. I am just not sure that perticular Marvel style - defines SA to the extent that DC cannot really be true SA because its not like Marvel? Paraphrasing, but it seems to the the essence.

 

So - yes, Marvel did have a special style, and DC was already successful so their starting point was different. But it might be said that it was just as special that DC as a more dominant company made some changes to their formula around this age, as it is Marvel finding a formula that worked and would go on to be more and more successful? Those two formulae are still different - but is it really fair to let one of them define what real SA should be and feel like?

[mysterio]

Showcase 4 leads to Showcase 6 15 22

Big move with Adventure 247 and Brave Bold 28

These lead to FF1 which opens the door to AF 15 and all the other Marvels.

 

So if importance is defined as what started it all, my vote is Showcase 4

As a character, Flash is probably as popular as FF, maybe a little less. Clearly 2nd tier as of today compared to Batman Superman or Spidey, and Xmen.

 

But AF 15 as a distinct comic is clearly #1.

 

FF1 is more important than AF 15 the way that New Comics 1 is more important than Action 1. Historically true, but c'mon man.

 

Yeah.

 

SC4 re-introduces an updated superhero. This becomes important and sets a first trend of reintroducing super-heroes by DC and Marvel.

 

Showcase #6 introduces the first successful SA super-hero team, and the first to get their own dedicated title.

 

BB28 then start the first successful another super-hero team. This becomes important because it starts the second trend. JLA1 even shows that superhero teams can do well in their own title, after Challengers succeeded first in their own book, which Marvel then does with FF1.

 

Marvel follows up on both new trends and eg. creates FF1 which becomes a success and the start to Marvel's future successes.

 

Amended that a bit for you since the last history lesson didn't seem to stick.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Atlas tried to relaunch superheroes in the mid-50s, only a couple of years after they were cancelled.

 

They failed.

 

Showcase #4 did not.

 

Without Showcase #4, there is no DC Silver Age. Without DC's Silver Age, there may not have been a Marvel Silver Age.

 

The importance of Showcase #4 is hard to overstate, if only because it was the first success of a new era.

 

I do not discuss this: as an american you surely have a clearer view of the historical period.

 

But who would seriously compare what Marvel became from 1961 through the following decade with the DC titles? The Marvel age was something unique, as much there could have been great quality works in the DC titles the vision carried on by Stan Lee, and then by the second generation of writers, was a unified conception which cannot be compared with much else, IMO. :shrug:

 

I am just taking books with similar themes as a comparision: during the youth protests and counterculture years, younger writers which posed the problems of the times to the superheroes. Roy Thomas, not everything he did was excellent, but most Marvel stories dealing with these themes appear a lot more accomplished and convincing compared to DCs (including the acclaimed Green Lantern/Green Arrow run by O'Neill).

Books like Iron Man #45-46, Sub-Mariner #28, the first Warlock series, some Spider-Man stories really, there was something additional going on with the Marvel age, compared to DC.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in response to my statement above. Your last paragraph, especially, references books that are almost an entire generation removed from Showcase #4.

 

I don't disagree with much of what you've written, with the exception that some of the things that DC was doing was pretty innovative as well.

 

But in terms of creative firepower, no one can touch Marvel from 1961-1971-ish. There is no doubt that what Marvel did was head and shoulders more creative than almost everything else on the market, and considered as a whole, nothing else comes anywhere close.

 

None of that, however, changes the fact that Showcase #4 was the first great success after the era of the "New Trend" was over (defeated, really.)

 

Atlas tried...but Atlas failed. DC tried...and DC succeeded. The stuff that Carmine and Jack K. and Julie and Jack S. and John B. and Gil and Gardner did in the late 50's was pretty gutsy, too, and continued the DC domination of the market.

 

And without Showcase #4, it might not have happened. Without that, Marvel SA might not have happened.

 

Thus, it's hard to overstate the important of Showcase #4.

[AGGIEZ]

FF1 is more important than AF 15 the way that New Comics 1 is more important than Action 1. Historically true, but c'mon man.

 

 

/end discussion

[RockMyAmadeus]

Showcase 4 leads to Showcase 6 15 22

Big move with Adventure 247 and Brave Bold 28

These lead to FF1 which opens the door to AF 15 and all the other Marvels.

 

So if importance is defined as what started it all, my vote is Showcase 4

As a character, Flash is probably as popular as FF, maybe a little less. Clearly 2nd tier as of today compared to Batman Superman or Spidey, and Xmen.

 

But AF 15 as a distinct comic is clearly #1.

 

FF1 is more important than AF 15 the way that New Comics 1 is more important than Action 1. Historically true, but c'mon man.

 

Yeah.

 

SC4 re-introduces an updated superhero. This becomes important and sets a first trend of reintroducing super-heroes by DC and Marvel.

 

Showcase #6 introduces the first successful SA super-hero team, and the first to get their own dedicated title.

 

BB28 then start the first successful another super-hero team. This becomes important because it starts the second trend. JLA1 even shows that superhero teams can do well in their own title, which Marvel then does with FF1.

 

Marvel follows up on both new trends and eg. creates FF1 which becomes a success and the start to Marvel's future successes.

 

Amended that a bit for you since the last history lesson didn't seem to stick.

 

Yes. It's important not to re-write history according to one's own particular likes and dislikes.

 

COTU was a Top 30 title for at least 1960-1962, and probably for 1958-1959 as well.

 

Things changed, favor falls in and out. I think "Even the X-Men were cancelled once" shall be my code phrase for "not looking at history from a scholarly, empirical perspective."

 

[AlexanderM]

FF1 is more important than AF 15 the way that New Comics 1 is more important than Action 1. Historically true, but c'mon man.

 

 

/end discussion

 

There is some truth to this.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Seriously, if it wasn't for Marvel in the 60's the superhero genre would be dead in the water. Thank god for FF1. SC 4 not so much.

 

Maybe. Not necessarily.

 

Superheroes fell out of favor AGAIN after the SA.

 

"Even the X-Men were cancelled once."

 

Green Lantern was cancelled, Silver Surfer was cancelled, Sub-Mariner was cancelled.

 

In the early 70's, the new Fantasy genre really caught hold, horror was back (sorta), and the infant independent market was showing its first signs of growth.

 

By the mid to late 70's, superheroes were *almost* dead again, in terms of comics publishing (though thriving in merchandising and in other media), and it was so bad that there was talk of ceasing publication altogether.

 

"Star Wars saved Marvel" Shooter often says, and that may really be true.

 

DC had no Star Wars to save them, and the "implosion" of 78 nearly took them all down.

 

Clearly, the "old way" was no longer working, and people weren't into the capes.

 

Without the Direct market, the entire comics market, capes or no, 60's Marvel or no, may have died 30 years ago.

 

Even 60's Marvel wasn't that great for 60's Marvel. Yes, they laid the groundwork for major success down the road...but, as everyone knows, Stan (to an extent), Jack, Steve, et al didn't really enjoy the fruits of their labor, much like Byrne didn't enjoy the fruits (directly) of his labor on X-Men. The title didn't see crazy sales until '83, two years after he left the title.

 

All of which maybe wouldn't have happened....probably...without Showcase #4.

 

[drbanner]

Challengers of the Unknown, Space Ranger, Rip Hunter, Suicide Squad...

 

I loved Space Ranger in Toy Story, otherwise he's pretty...

 

[drbanner]

Even 60's Marvel wasn't that great for 60's Marvel.

 

Marvel's distribution figures tripled between the publication of FF #1 and 1968. DC's distribution peaked in 1957 and steadily decreased every year until Neal Adams breathed some life into the company in '72/73. The fact is that DC's sales at the beginning of the Silver Age were dominated by the ongoing Superman and Batman titles and their spinoffs, not by anything created during the "Silver Age".

 

Dunno, maybe the data is flawed?

 

 

[Broke as a Joke]

Even 60's Marvel wasn't that great for 60's Marvel.

 

Marvel's distribution figures tripled between the publication of FF #1 and 1968. DC's distribution peaked in 1957 and steadily decreased every year until Neal Adams breathed some life into the company in '72/73. The fact is that DC's sales at the beginning of the Silver Age were dominated by the ongoing Superman and Batman titles and their spinoffs, not by anything created during the "Silver Age".

 

Dunno, maybe the data is flawed?

 

 

 

Thank you for this drbanner. Funny that Marvel was selling better in the late 60's than after 1983....

[mysterio]

Even 60's Marvel wasn't that great for 60's Marvel.

 

Marvel's distribution figures tripled between the publication of FF #1 and 1968. DC's distribution peaked in 1957 and steadily decreased every year until Neal Adams breathed some life into the company in '72/73. The fact is that DC's sales at the beginning of the Silver Age were dominated by the ongoing Superman and Batman titles and their spinoffs, not by anything created during the "Silver Age".

 

Dunno, maybe the data is flawed?

 

 

 

Thank you for this drbanner. Funny that Marvel was selling better in the late 60's than after 1983....

 

This chart should be of some concern to anyone who has paid four figures for an Iron Man #1, or any of the other 1968 #1 issues...

[drbanner]

Thank you for this drbanner. Funny that Marvel was selling better in the late 60's than after 1983....

They aren't alone - I believe the peak comic book sales occurred in the 1950's with numbers that would blow today's distribution figures out of the water. That's why there are so many worthless Dell funny animal books...