Which of these comics is the king of the Copper age?

[joe_collector]

 

Golden Age - Action 1 (MASS MARKET BOOK PRINTED IN THE MILLIONS)

 

Action Comics #1 had a print run of 200,000 copies.

 

* Van Lente, Fred; Dunlavey, Ryan (2012). The Comic Book History of Comics. IDW. p. 32.

Millions of Two Hundred Thousands!!

 

Wow, don't quite your day job.

 

As I admittedly am NOT even remotely a fan of GA books, I probably mixed it up with the multi-printed Superman 1.

 

Still, the point remains, AC 1 had a 200K print run compared to a measly 3K for TMNT. Like comparing apples to alien fruit.

[Spyder!]

*** You are ignoring this user ***

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What did you say? Speak up, I can't hear you.

 

So when people poke holes in your arguments you just quit. I am not surprised. Maybe next time you shouldn't get involved in a discussion you know nothing about.

[BarryAllen]

TMNT 1 by a landslide...

[oakman29]

TMNT 1 by a landslide...

 

That's a surprise.

[BarryAllen]

TMNT 1 by a landslide...

 

That's a surprise.

 

:shrug:

 

I dunno, there was some pretty heated debate around it.

 

I am sure people will still argue, but a nice board poll is fairly solid evidence.

 

TMNT 1 had more votes than the other two combined and more than double the votes of the second place book... Not even close.

[Spyder!]

TMNT 1 by a landslide...

 

That's a surprise.

 

:shrug:

 

I dunno, there was some pretty heated debate around it.

 

I am sure people will still argue, but a nice board poll is fairly solid evidence.

 

TMNT 1 had more votes than the other two combined and more than double the votes of the second place book... Not even close.

 

Yep, not even close is right. This one was a no-brainer. TMNT is King!

[Gatsby77]

I'm with the dealer consensus on this one:

 

1) NM 98

2) ASM 300

3) TMNT 1

 

Here's why, and why market cap matters:

 

I'm a dealer at a convention, and I have $15,000 worth of the above 3 books:

 

$5000 worth of TMNT # 1 (say, two slabbed mid-grade copies or one high-grade copy)

$5,000 worth of ASM 300 (5-12 of slabbed in 9.4-9.8)

$5,000 worth of NM 98 (5-12 of slabbed in 9.4-9.8)

 

At the end of the show, which book made me the most money?

 

That's your answer.

 

I guarantee you no dealer would prefer having 1-2 copies of TMNT vs. having 5-12 copies each of ASM 300 or NM 98.

[Ryan.]

What if you sold $5001 worth of $1 bin books? Would they then cumulatively be the King of the Copper Age?

[joe_collector]

I am sure people will still argue, but a nice board poll is fairly solid evidence

 

 

Like I said initially, this "poll" (and I use the term loosely) was designed to achieve the answer you wanted it to achieve, and nothing more.

 

For example, polls should be alphabetic to lose any possible bias, but you have TMNT #1 at the top, a very common trick with scam polls.. And why not more selections than a measly 3, like Albedo #2, MM Gold, ASM 238, SW 8, NM 87, etc.

 

Of course if you're looking at value only, which this forum is very top-heavy on, then there is no question that TMNT #1 is the king, as all you have to do is look at OS and eBay. Same thing happens with GA and SA polls on here - ask someone one question and you get Action #1 (value) while you get TEC 27 (more interesting character/would rather own if both were worth $0) if you ask another. Same with FF #1 or AF 15 on the Marvel SA side.

 

It all depends on the question you ask, the design and ordering of the poll, and the actual issues listed.

 

But a generic question always equals "highest value" on here, guaranteed. Most CGC forum members think with their $$$$, which is pretty natural given the forum demographics and CGC's target market.

 

And this definitely matters, as I remember a similar poll on the eBay forums (mostly comic readers and raw collectors) and they picked ASM 300 because more of them liked Venom as a character, not because TMNT #1 was worth more.

[VintageComics]

I am sure people will still argue, but a nice board poll is fairly solid evidence

 

 

Like I said initially, this "poll" (and I use the term loosely) was designed to achieve the answer you wanted it to achieve, and nothing more.

 

For example, polls should be alphabetic to lose any possible bias, but you have TMNT #1 at the top, a very common trick with scam polls.. And why not more selections than a measly 3, like Albedo #2, MM Gold, ASM 238, SW 8, NM 87, etc.

 

Of course if you're looking at value only, which this forum is very top-heavy on, then there is no question that TMNT #1 is the king, as all you have to do is look at OS and eBay. Same thing happens with GA and SA polls on here - ask someone one question and you get Action #1 (value) while you get TEC 27 (more interesting character/would rather own if both were worth $0) if you ask another. Same with FF #1 or AF 15 on the Marvel SA side.

 

It all depends on the question you ask, the design and ordering of the poll, and the actual issues listed.

 

But a generic question always equals "highest value" on here, guaranteed. Most CGC forum members think with their $$$$, which is pretty natural given the forum demographics and CGC's target market.

 

And this definitely matters, as I remember a similar poll on the eBay forums (mostly comic readers and raw collectors) and they picked ASM 300 because more of them liked Venom as a character, not because TMNT #1 was worth more.

 

I agree that the poll was not unbiased.

 

We also didn't really define what 'king' meant before the poll was started.

[VintageComics]

In terms of the "market cap" for those three books, the "invisible hand" of the market currently says:

 

New Mutants #98 $2,629,800

Amazing Spider-man #300 $1,988,200

TMNT #1 $1,731,000

 

Reference: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8699927

 

"Voting with dollars"

 

Which is pretty much the order most dealers would put them in.

I think the entire market cap thing is neat. But ... Tmnt #1 is uber rare compared to the other 2 books . It has a smaller cap for sure but greater individual value in every grade.

 

The market cap is not only neat, it takes into consideration both supply and demand in one tidy number.

 

If demand is strong but supply is weak (like TMNT #1) then people pay more per issue.

 

If demand is strong but supply is strong (like ASM #300 and NM #98) then people pay less per issue.

 

If demand is weak and supply is strong the book plummets in price.

 

Seems reasonable to me and it also reinforces what most dealers will tell you - that more people (way more people) ask about ASM #300 and NM #98 than TMNT #1.

 

 

[joe_collector]

The market cap is not only neat, it takes into consideration both supply and demand in one tidy number.

 

If demand is strong but supply is weak (like TMNT #1) then people pay more per issue.

 

If demand is strong but supply is strong (like ASM #300 and NM #98) then people pay less per issue.

 

Exactly, and I don't see how people cannot grasp such a basic concept - it's simply the total dollars sunk into a given comic. No different than stocks, which are compared no matter the raw number, which are irrelevant. If Disney had 100,000 or 1,000,000,000 outstanding shares, it wouldn't matter in the least - the stock price would just be higher in the first scenario and lower in the second.

 

If we believe that the comic market is an efficient one, then market capitalization is a valid method of comparing different comics.

 

 

[Gatsby77]

 

Exactly, and I don't see how people cannot grasp such a basic concept - it's simply the total dollars sunk into a given comic. No different than stocks, which are compared no matter the raw number, which are irrelevant. If Disney had 100,000 or 1,000,000,000 outstanding shares, it wouldn't matter in the least - the stock price would just be higher in the first scenario and lower in the second.

 

If we believe that the comic market is an efficient one, then market capitalization is a valid method of comparing different comics.

 

 

Perfect analogy.

 

Market cap is fundamental to stock analysis because stock A may cost only $3.50 per share while stock B may cost $80 per share. Doesn't mean that stock B is a better value than stock A, let alone "King of the Stocks."

 

 

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

The reason (well, one of the reasons) why I see the market cap idea flawed is that, unlike stocks, where a person will look to invest a certain dollar amount to take a position in a company, regardless of how many shares that turns out to be, whereas in comics it's the individual unit that's considered.

 

Also, a share of stock is a proxy that represents a portion of a company, and the value is determined not by the thing that one is buying, but on the operations of a company, whereas the value in comics is directly related to the thing being purchased.

[BarryAllen]

The market cap is not only neat, it takes into consideration both supply and demand in one tidy number.

 

If demand is strong but supply is weak (like TMNT #1) then people pay more per issue.

 

If demand is strong but supply is strong (like ASM #300 and NM #98) then people pay less per issue.

 

Exactly, and I don't see how people cannot grasp such a basic concept - it's simply the total dollars sunk into a given comic. No different than stocks, which are compared no matter the raw number, which are irrelevant. If Disney had 100,000 or 1,000,000,000 outstanding shares, it wouldn't matter in the least - the stock price would just be higher in the first scenario and lower in the second.

 

If we believe that the comic market is an efficient one, then market capitalization is a valid method of comparing different comics.

 

 

You cannot equate stocks and comics 100%. In stocks people (at the time of purchase) know the total market cap and outstanding number of shares. It is a fixed amount of supply that helps inform their decision.

 

In comics, a select few know the "potential" number of existing copies and most are skewed even further by poor interpretation of the census (in both directions).

 

However, I do not disagree that overall the amount of money spent on a given comic by adding up their calculated census value isn't without merit.

[BarryAllen]

I am sure people will still argue, but a nice board poll is fairly solid evidence

 

 

Like I said initially, this "poll" (and I use the term loosely) was designed to achieve the answer you wanted it to achieve, and nothing more.

 

For example, polls should be alphabetic to lose any possible bias, but you have TMNT #1 at the top, a very common trick with scam polls.. And why not more selections than a measly 3, like Albedo #2, MM Gold, ASM 238, SW 8, NM 87, etc.

 

Of course if you're looking at value only, which this forum is very top-heavy on, then there is no question that TMNT #1 is the king, as all you have to do is look at OS and eBay. Same thing happens with GA and SA polls on here - ask someone one question and you get Action #1 (value) while you get TEC 27 (more interesting character/would rather own if both were worth $0) if you ask another. Same with FF #1 or AF 15 on the Marvel SA side.

 

It all depends on the question you ask, the design and ordering of the poll, and the actual issues listed.

 

But a generic question always equals "highest value" on here, guaranteed. Most CGC forum members think with their $$$$, which is pretty natural given the forum demographics and CGC's target market.

 

And this definitely matters, as I remember a similar poll on the eBay forums (mostly comic readers and raw collectors) and they picked ASM 300 because more of them liked Venom as a character, not because TMNT #1 was worth more.

 

Serious, boo hoo. Lighten' up Francis.

 

The poll was created specifically out of a conversation in Comics General. It wasn't perfect nor meant to be unassailable. People chose TMNT at a much higher rate within this given poll, speculating what would have happened if you changed the criteria is silly. If you are so desperate to prove poll tampering or whatever else you are trolling feel free to create a different one and see what people do. Get off your rear and do something other than sit around and judge everyone else's efforts.

 

You are such a party pooper.

[BarryAllen]

In terms of the "market cap" for those three books, the "invisible hand" of the market currently says:

 

New Mutants #98 $2,629,800

Amazing Spider-man #300 $1,988,200

TMNT #1 $1,731,000

 

Reference: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8699927

 

"Voting with dollars"

 

Which is pretty much the order most dealers would put them in.

I think the entire market cap thing is neat. But ... Tmnt #1 is uber rare compared to the other 2 books . It has a smaller cap for sure but greater individual value in every grade.

 

The market cap is not only neat, it takes into consideration both supply and demand in one tidy number.

 

If demand is strong but supply is weak (like TMNT #1) then people pay more per issue.

 

If demand is strong but supply is strong (like ASM #300 and NM #98) then people pay less per issue.

 

If demand is weak and supply is strong the book plummets in price.

 

Seems reasonable to me and it also reinforces what most dealers will tell you - that more people (way more people) ask about ASM #300 and NM #98 than TMNT #1.

 

 

This isn't true. The market cap analysis only takes into account the total number of slabbed books according to the census (accurate or not). It isn't a true picture of supply and a manufactured calculation of demand.

 

Again, it isn't without merit. However, it isn't the "end all be all" either.

 

Side note - I am sure less people ask about Amazing Fantasy 15 than ASM 300. Does that mean ASM 300 is the more important book? More goes into this equation than we are giving credit. The poll isn't the ultimate decider any more than the "market cap" analogy or other posed arguments.

[Hulksdaddy1]

Grade for grade, people will choose TMNT#1 99.99% of the time.

 

I'd call that top dog.

[Topnotchman]

I reported on these same three books when doing my Overstreet Market report last November, page 157. Turtles #1 is the biggest book of the copper age, but New Mutants 98 and Amazing Spider-man #300 are the two heavy hitters of the copper age.

 

In November 2014 279 copies of New Mutants 98 sold on Ebay which is 9 copies per day, ASM 300 had 219 copies sold which is around 7 copies per day. I did not break down certified or raw. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles saw 12 copies sell within three months, just four copies per month and all were CGC certified.

 

Turtles #1 is the king of value of the Copper Age, but New Mutants 98 is King of demand.