Administrator Architecht Posted June 12, 2015 Administrator Share Posted June 12, 2015 This thread is to discuss changes to the community-determined rules for managing the probation and hall of shame rules. It is NOT for discussing specific incidents with board members for the purpose of deciding if they go on the list (except as examples for why the rules might need changing). There are other threads for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Just as a start, it looks like the following are a couple of topics for changes to the PL/HOS Rules. Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? 2) If a return policy is not stated is there an "assumed" return period? 3) if no return policy is stated and the seller counters a return request with "I stated no returns", what conditions can override that? 4) Restoration: do we assume a book is unrestored unless stated otherwise? Is it a requirement of the seller to reveal known restoration or must we ask the seller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC ed Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bio-Rupp Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Love ya Arch ! Reading my name has got to make your eyes bleed xxx ooo Rupp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PovertyRow Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy; GMTA. I think I was editing to expand on that very thing while you were composing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bio-Rupp Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Let's discuss the following as well... - Who has the final say concerning when a sales thread is closed if it's not marked as closed? Does the seller, does the buyer, or is it by consensus after a problem arises? For example, when a buyer buys a book from a thread that's not marked as closed and the seller then tells the buyer the sale is, in fact, closed and the buyer doesn't agree. Should there be a time frame for a sales thread that's not marked as closed be considered still active... and what should that time frame be? - Define the time frame that can be expected on the phrase " I guarantee... " in relation to a seller's words, concerning an item they are selling, if that time frame is not explicitly stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman399 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Can we add rules about discussing how often the rules can be discussed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red84 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Just as a start, it looks like the following are a couple of topics for changes to the PL/HOS Rules. Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? 2) If a return policy is not stated is there an "assumed" return period? 3) if no return policy is stated and the seller counters a return request with "I stated no returns", what conditions can override that? 4) Restoration: do we assume a book is unrestored unless stated otherwise? Is it a requirement of the seller to reveal known restoration or must we ask the seller? #4 is easy. All books are implied to be unrestored unless stated otherwise. All known restoration including pressing history should be disclosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Chaos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy; I would say another distinction is the following: 1. An ordinary transaction where the buyer's only complaint is that the grade of the book is not quite what the seller claimed in their sales thread. 2. An out of the ordinary transaction where the buyer received and incomplete or restored book. Restoration has the following issues that an ordinary transaction does not have: A. A restored book is worth far less than an un-restored book in the same grade. B. Restoration can be difficult to detect. More time may be necessary for a buyer takes a closer look at the book (after an failing to see the problem the first time) or to involve a third party with more expertise. C. Disagreements about the grade of a raw book are common and the buyer takes some risk in buying a raw book. Unless restoration (or missing pages, stamps, centerfolds, staples, etc.) is disclosed it is implied that the buyer can expect the book to be both complete and without restoration. While a strict time limit may be reasonable in an ordinary transaction, a seller should be expected to go the extra mile if they failed to disclose restoration. Edited June 12, 2015 by Dr Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvstmntComcSuply Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 3) if a no return policy is stated and the seller counters a return request with "I stated no returns", what conditions can override that? FTFY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvstmntComcSuply Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Were grade disagreements the purview of PL discussions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Can we add rules about discussing how often the rules can be discussed? Yuuuuup! Every hour of everyday! Print it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy; I would say another distinction is the following: 1. An ordinary transaction where the buyer's only complaint is that the grade of the book is not quite what the seller claimed in their sales thread. 2. An out of the ordinary transaction where the buyer received and incomplete or restored book. Restoration has the following issues that an ordinary transaction does not have: A. A restored book is worth far less than an un-restored book in the same grade. B. Restoration can be difficult to detect. More time may be necessary for a buyer takes a closer look at the book (after an failing to see the problem the first time) or to involve a third party with more expertise. C. Disagreements about the grade of a raw book are common and the buyer takes some risk in buying a raw book. Unless restoration (or missing pages, stamps, centerfolds, staples, etc.) is disclosed it is implied that the buyer can expect the book to be both complete and without restoration. While a strict time limit may be reasonable in an ordinary transaction, a seller should be expected to go the extra mile if they failed to disclose restoration. Here we go. Books are assumed to be complete without restoration. Garage sale thread Found these books in my attic! Please feel free to ask any questions! NOTHING IS IMPLIED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvstmntComcSuply Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Books offered for sale with no mention of restoration are implied to be unrestored and complete. By offering a Bats #123 for sale, if I ship a bats #123 with a coupon cutout, the book was not what was offered and the sale has not been completed. If I ship a Bats #123 with restoration, the book was not what was offered and the sale has not been completed. When a sale is incomplete, the buyer can force the return for a full refund, even if returns are not allowed. This is the industry standard. If I ship a Bats #123 and the buyer disagrees with the grade, the sale has been completed and any remedy for the buyer is based on my stated terms or whatever the buyer and i can agree to, after the fact. Anyone who wishes to have other terms should explicitly state such terms in their sales thread eg: These books are offered "As is" These books are offered with No restoration guarantee I know nothing about comic books and you will be getting whatever the hell is in the picture. God help you if there are no pages within the cover, because I sure won't. "Found these books in my attic! Please feel free to ask any questions! " would not absolve the buyer from the industry standard as far as I am concerned, unless they specifically followed it up with something like the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Chaos Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Here we go. Books are assumed to be complete without restoration. Garage sale thread Found these books in my attic! Please feel free to ask any questions! NOTHING IS IMPLIED. I thought we already went through this in the other thread. If the seller clearly states "sales are as is", "found these books in a dumpster" what you see is what you get", or otherwise makes it very clear to the buyer that they are making no promises about the grade, quality, or condition of the books the buyer is no position to complain about restoration or much of anything else. On the other hand if the seller puts a book in a sales thread and claims that the book is in good condition (etc.) without any mention of restoration, the seller has made a representation to the buyer about the quality of the book from which most buyers would imply that they are receiving a complete unrestored book. Unless the seller clearly states that the books are as is and that the grade is not a promise but should be considered a best guess the buyer should have every right to be upset if the book is restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crassus Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Please add more rules and discussion. 1) How long after a completed transaction can a request for a return/refund or a partial refund be made? When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy; I would say another distinction is the following: 1. An ordinary transaction where the buyer's only complaint is that the grade of the book is not quite what the seller claimed in their sales thread. 2. An out of the ordinary transaction where the buyer received and incomplete or restored book. Restoration has the following issues that an ordinary transaction does not have: A. A restored book is worth far less than an un-restored book in the same grade. B. Restoration can be difficult to detect. More time may be necessary for a buyer takes a closer look at the book (after an failing to see the problem the first time) or to involve a third party with more expertise. C. Disagreements about the grade of a raw book are common and the buyer takes some risk in buying a raw book. Unless restoration (or missing pages, stamps, centerfolds, staples, etc.) is disclosed it is implied that the buyer can expect the book to be both complete and without restoration. While a strict time limit may be reasonable in an ordinary transaction, a seller should be expected to go the extra mile if they failed to disclose restoration. Here we go. Books are assumed to be complete without restoration. Garage sale thread Found these books in my attic! Please feel free to ask any questions! NOTHING IS IMPLIED. Here the issue is context. Sure, if the context is complete ignorance of the hobby and the comic book market generally than yes, if I was faced with that seller I would be wise to ask a lot of questions. BUT if the context is the CGC Message Boards, where the PL and HoS reside, I think I have some right to assume the standard of knowledge is higher, and a lot is implied when marketing books on an industry website using industry grading and quoting GPA "blue" market values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 We have had many new people show up to sell collections with no prior knowledge of comics. If this was a site you had to pay for then I would agree with you. I would simply laugh at anyone who feels they have the right to expect a level of expertise in a "Attic find! Please ask questions" sale by a noob with pics following all the rules of the sales area. Having the right to assume a comic is unrestored is not a rule. If it is then please show me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfingh Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 We have had many new people show up to sell collections with no prior knowledge of comics. If this was a site you had to pay for then I would agree with you. I would simply laugh at anyone who feels they have the right to expect a level of expertise in a "Attic find! Please ask questions" sale by a noob with pics following all the rules of the sales area. Having the right to assume a comic is unrestored is not a rule. If it is then please show me. But does that really matter? If someone came on here to sell an attic find, what do they care whether they get put on some stupid Internet shame list? That is the essence of what the Marketplace has become. It used to be collectors selling to collectors, with some dealers mixed in. Now it is part-time flippers selling to weekend warriors/dealers/specu-hoarders. That is why the list has lost its efficacy and people's "personal lists" matter more. It's like having your borders overrun by refugees in the war between Hustruckistan and Instagramia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjum12 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Before we start espousing Industry Standards, culpability, and fraudulent intent, etc., etc., per se....... I think it needs to be pointed that CGC does NOT guarantee their Resto check......and that they do get it wrong. That being said, I do agree with Robert that more stringent expectations on THIS website are to be *ahem* expected.......and that a restoration free book probably does represent some sort of baseline consensus amongst prospective buyers...... however, many of us will accept restored copies of certain books and will pay MUCH more than 30 percent. GOD BLESS.... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u ..... discussions of "equity" need to address all factors of the equation, not just those of a perceived majority. ....I guess what I'm saying is that I'm reluctant to recognize or even propose "default" terms for anyone else's sales thread. Edited June 13, 2015 by jimjum12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjum12 Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Were grade disagreements the purview of PL discussions? ......most cases represent failure to pay or failure to deliver the item. GOD BLESS.... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
