Hall of Shame and Probation Rules DISCUSSION 4 4

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I think it makes MORE sense to force SELLERS TO CLEARLY STATE THEIR RETURN POLICY

 

That right there is going to be a problem. especially the CLEARLY part.

 

 

[Doktor]

"X day returns for any reason. Y days return/refund for found restoration via 3rd party grading company"

 

or

 

"as-is, no returns"

 

or

 

"X day returns. Full stop. No returns/refunds after this period for any reason"

 

All are pretty clear. I don't know how you could make it NOT clear. I'm sure someone can figure out a way to murky those waters up though.

 

But even if someone does make it murky or convoluted, as long as there is some sort of return policy stated, the buyer & seller are on the same page & others in the PL thread have something to look at and determine "did the buyer or seller violate these terms at any point in the transaction & thus be subject to PL nomination?"

Edited June 19, 2015 by Doktor

[InvstmntComcSuply]

The reason why it will present problems is because >65% of sellers won't state a clear return policy at all

[EC ed]

Probably a good step to "require" sales threads to have a stated return policy (even if the stated policy is ' no returns'), just as we " require" payment method and shipping terms. Then we can button hump threads that don't have a stated policy.

 

I agree that many sellers will neglect this requirement, and people will buy from those threads before we can hump them. Then, we're back to the matter of what to do for PL purposes if a buyer buys from such a thread, and then has a problem...

[Awax]

From my view it just seems like it is getting too complicated. A simple "you have xx amount of time from date of purchase to nominate someone for the PL" seems the easiest way to go.

 

Seriously.

Buyer should have 30 days from date of receipt to initiate a return/refund, unless a longer time is agreed upon by both parties. After the 30 days from receipt, you're SOL for PL, regardless if the seller is willing to work with you.

 

It takes some people almost 30 days to ship a book out. I bet some people leave a package lying around that same time.

 

Around here 30 days is too short a time period

[revat]

From my view it just seems like it is getting too complicated. A simple "you have xx amount of time from date of purchase to nominate someone for the PL" seems the easiest way to go.

 

Seriously.

Buyer should have 30 days from date of receipt to initiate a return/refund, unless a longer time is agreed upon by both parties. After the 30 days from receipt, you're SOL for PL, regardless if the seller is willing to work with you.

 

It takes some people almost 30 days to ship a book out. I bet some people leave a package lying around that same time.

 

Around here 30 days is too short a time period

 

for many, I agree. That's why I'm in favor of the

 

NEW RULE (for people starting sales threads):

 

Sellers must clearly state their return policies (same as shipping terms and payment terms).

 

If they don't do it, we can report to mods, and they can remove the threads. Is this PERFECT? probably not. Does it seem like the most reasonable solution? I think yes. Let the buyer and seller decide what works for them.

[Bio-Rupp]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

I only include grading fees as an element in my case because had the true nature of the book (restored, married cover etc) been disclosed initially by the seller, then I would not have had the book graded in the first place. Or I probably would have not even purchased the book to begin with.

 

When I buyer incurs a loss due to seller negligence, I personally feel that seller who misrepresented his product (either by mistake or on purpose)... should bear the blame for that.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

I only include grading fees as an element in my case because had the true nature of the book (restored, married cover etc) been disclosed initially by the seller, then I would not have had the book graded in the first place. Or I probably would have not even purchased the book to begin with.

 

When I buyer incurs a loss due to seller negligence, I personally feel that seller who misrepresented his product (either by mistake or on purpose)... should bear the blame for that.

 

 

I understand all of the costs.

Your amount was very fair considering the value of the item you agreed to buy vs. the value of what was actually delivered. It should be left at that.

 

There are going to be a thousand permutations to go through in the thread. Compensatory damages are going to vary widely. For simplicity's sake, I think we need to limit the discussion to the actual cost of the item.

 

I also take the stand that the buyer of a raw book assumes the risk of submitting that book to CGC. If they don't want to assume that risk, buy it already graded.

 

Additionally, none of the major online markets will require a seller to refund more than what the buyer paid. An ebay transaction has no expectation of possible compensatory damages on the sellers part, board membership should not change that expectation.

[Bio-Rupp]

Rupp at what time frame would you have expected a full refund?

 

I know it's been two years for this current transaction and you're only asking for grading fees but I'm curious based on your two year proposal above when you felt still asking for a full refund was fair

 

Howdy Hector

 

well here's how I see it.

 

Let's use our true life scenario where I accidentally sold you a book with undisclosed color touch.

 

You tossed a on the book in question on 10/23/13. I shipped it and all was fine until I heard from you on 5/12/14 that you had just discovered the book was coming back from CGC with color touch. I missed it and you missed it when you received it. That was right at 7 months.

 

I had no problem refunding you full purchase price, shipping, grading fees etc. I did this for two reasons, the first being I value your friendship and your business... the second being it was entirely my fault from the beginning. You trusted my opinion that the book had no restoration and I missed it. There was no way I could not be at fault. You would not have purchased the book in the first place, let alone had it graded, had you known the true condition of the book. You lost money because of me. That was unacceptable to me.

 

Your question was what time frame would I have "expected" a full refund. Well I would round the 7 months up to at least ONE YEAR.

 

I consider you and I both collectors and sellers. We buy what we like and sometimes flip for profit. I think that makes us both normal board buyers and sellers. I'm not sure how many times you submit books for grading but I usually do it once sometimes twice a year.

 

Since we are the average here (again I'm guessing as to how many times you submit books)... I feel one year, full refund polciy isn't too much to ask as a time frame for a seller's word concerning his product.

 

If the seller doesn't want to pony up the funds he/she cost you for his misrepresentation of his product (ie grading fees, shipping etc)... then I suppose that would be up to the seller in question. They wouldn't "have to" do it... but they should want to.

 

No matter what, the full purchase price of the product should be refunded if the seller made a mistake.

 

 

[Bio-Rupp]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

[skypinkblu]

Rupp at what time frame would you have expected a full refund?

 

I know it's been two years for this current transaction and you're only asking for grading fees but I'm curious based on your two year proposal above when you felt still asking for a full refund was fair

 

Howdy Hector

 

well here's how I see it.

 

Let's use our true life scenario where I accidentally sold you a book with undisclosed color touch.

 

You tossed a on the book in question on 10/23/13. I shipped it and all was fine until I heard from you on 5/12/14 that you had just discovered the book was coming back from CGC with color touch. I missed it and you missed it when you received it. That was right at 7 months.

 

I had no problem refunding you full purchase price, shipping, grading fees etc. I did this for two reasons, the first being I value your friendship and your business... the second being it was entirely my fault from the beginning. You trusted my opinion that the book had no restoration and I missed it. There was no way I could not be at fault. You would not have purchased the book in the first place, let alone had it graded, had you known the true condition of the book. You lost money because of me. That was unacceptable to me.

 

Your question was what time frame would I have "expected" a full refund. Well I would round the 7 months up to at least ONE YEAR.

 

I consider you and I both collectors and sellers. We buy what we like and sometimes flip for profit. I think that makes us both normal board buyers and sellers. I'm not sure how many times you submit books for grading but I usually do it once sometimes twice a year.

 

Since we are the average here (again I'm guessing as to how many times you submit books)... I feel one year, full refund polciy isn't too much to ask as a time frame for a seller's word concerning his product.

 

If the seller doesn't want to pony up the funds he/she cost you for his misrepresentation of his product (ie grading fees, shipping etc)... then I suppose that would be up to the seller in question. They wouldn't "have to" do it... but they should want to.

 

No matter what, the full purchase price of the product should be refunded if the seller made a mistake.

 

 

I'm not saying I would never take a return in a year...but here is my problem. If you see John or Mary or Jane as an equal (as you stated you felt Hector was) you buy a book from one of them don't notice the resto for a year either...I'm not sure I like them being responsible for your fees.

 

Both of you made an error.

 

Neither of you spotted it, it's not like You, John or Mary or Jane are neophytes. Shouldn't you have some responsibility? When you receive a book you (the person receiving it, not you specifically) should open the book and take a good hard look at it. If you don't, well...two mistakes occur.

 

If we give people a year, we will have some people not even looking at the books for a year.

 

I'd prefer to make my own decisions on a case by case basis. I'll take a return for any reason, slabbed or not, during a limited period of time, but after that. I am an adult, I'd like to make up my own mind.

 

All of these rules have drawbacks. I saw someone say something about not paying until a book is packed. I ship immediately if not sooner. If I have an issue mailing quickly, I talk to the person. I don't want to be lumped in with those who don't take any responsibility.

 

Why should I print postage and then have to reprint it when the person does not pay in a timely manner?

 

There are just too many variables mostly caused by the few of the people here who act like turkeys. I don't see why the rest of the sales forum needs stringent guidelines.

 

I'm fine with something saying each person should post their return policy. It will help me remember, but I would like to set my own and just maybe I'd like to keep tweaking it.

 

Your issue is was not a common one, I don't see the point in changing everything because of one, uncommon issue.

 

Edited June 19, 2015 by skypinkblu

[CAHokie]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

 

 

You cant help yourself can you? How much would you have expected at year 5?

[bababooey]

♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♫ That's what it's all about. ♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♫

 

[Bio-Rupp]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

 

 

You cant help yourself can you? How much would you have expected at year 5?

 

This is a discussion Hokie. If you have better ideas throw them out here.

 

I'm guessing your vast experience as a seller here should give you some insight. Wait... looking at your topics created page, it shows you have had exactly ONE SALES THREAD on the boards since you came here.

 

That said, don't you think it would be better for you to have at least some experience selling here before trying to convince me how to handle customers and how I feel they should be treated?

 

Please God... don't let someone with ONE SALE under his belt derail this discussion again.

 

 

 

 

[Bio-Rupp]

Rupp at what time frame would you have expected a full refund?

 

I know it's been two years for this current transaction and you're only asking for grading fees but I'm curious based on your two year proposal above when you felt still asking for a full refund was fair

 

Howdy Hector

 

well here's how I see it.

 

Let's use our true life scenario where I accidentally sold you a book with undisclosed color touch.

 

You tossed a on the book in question on 10/23/13. I shipped it and all was fine until I heard from you on 5/12/14 that you had just discovered the book was coming back from CGC with color touch. I missed it and you missed it when you received it. That was right at 7 months.

 

I had no problem refunding you full purchase price, shipping, grading fees etc. I did this for two reasons, the first being I value your friendship and your business... the second being it was entirely my fault from the beginning. You trusted my opinion that the book had no restoration and I missed it. There was no way I could not be at fault. You would not have purchased the book in the first place, let alone had it graded, had you known the true condition of the book. You lost money because of me. That was unacceptable to me.

 

Your question was what time frame would I have "expected" a full refund. Well I would round the 7 months up to at least ONE YEAR.

 

I consider you and I both collectors and sellers. We buy what we like and sometimes flip for profit. I think that makes us both normal board buyers and sellers. I'm not sure how many times you submit books for grading but I usually do it once sometimes twice a year.

 

Since we are the average here (again I'm guessing as to how many times you submit books)... I feel one year, full refund polciy isn't too much to ask as a time frame for a seller's word concerning his product.

 

If the seller doesn't want to pony up the funds he/she cost you for his misrepresentation of his product (ie grading fees, shipping etc)... then I suppose that would be up to the seller in question. They wouldn't "have to" do it... but they should want to.

 

No matter what, the full purchase price of the product should be refunded if the seller made a mistake.

 

 

I'm not saying I would never take a return in a year...but here is my problem. If you see John or Mary or Jane as an equal (as you stated you felt Hector was) you buy a book from one of them don't notice the resto for a year either...I'm not sure I like them being responsible for your fees.

 

Both of you made an error.

 

Neither of you spotted it, it's not like You, John or Mary or Jane are neophytes. Shouldn't you have some responsibility? When you receive a book you (the person receiving it, not you specifically) should open the book and take a good hard look at it. If you don't, well...two mistakes occur.

 

If we give people a year, we will have some people not even looking at the books for a year.

 

I'd prefer to make my own decisions on a case by case basis. I'll take a return for any reason, slabbed or not, during a limited period of time, but after that. I am an adult, I'd like to make up my own mind.

 

All of these rules have drawbacks. I saw someone say something about not paying until a book is packed. I ship immediately if not sooner. If I have an issue mailing quickly, I talk to the person. I don't want to be lumped in with those who don't take any responsibility.

 

Why should I print postage and then have to reprint it when the person does not pay in a timely manner?

 

There are just too many variables mostly caused by the few of the people here who act like turkeys. I don't see why the rest of the sales forum needs stringent guidelines.

 

I'm fine with something saying each person should post their return policy. It will help me remember, but I would like to set my own and just maybe I'd like to keep tweaking it.

 

Your issue is was not a common one, I don't see the point in changing everything because of one, uncommon issue.

 

 

So you aren't in favor of time frames, cut offs etc... but you yourself want to address these problems as they arise on a case by case basis?

 

 

[Transplant]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

 

 

You cant help yourself can you? How much would you have expected at year 5?

 

This is a discussion Hokie. If you have better ideas throw them out here.

 

I'm guessing your vast experience as a seller here should give you some insight. Wait... looking at your topics created page, it shows you have had exactly ONE SALES THREAD on the boards since you came here.

 

That said, don't you think it would be better for you to have at least some experience selling here before trying to convince me how to handle customers and how I feel they should be treated?

 

Please God... don't let someone with ONE SALE under his belt derail this discussion again.

 

 

 

Please God, don't let someone who basically does nothing but sell here, and who has a disgusting history here make all the rules.

[Bio-Rupp]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

 

 

You cant help yourself can you? How much would you have expected at year 5?

 

This is a discussion Hokie. If you have better ideas throw them out here.

 

I'm guessing your vast experience as a seller here should give you some insight. Wait... looking at your topics created page, it shows you have had exactly ONE SALES THREAD on the boards since you came here.

 

That said, don't you think it would be better for you to have at least some experience selling here before trying to convince me how to handle customers and how I feel they should be treated?

 

Please God... don't let someone with ONE SALE under his belt derail this discussion again.

 

 

 

Please God, don't let someone who basically does nothing but sell here, and who has a disgusting history here make all the rules.

 

Transplant to the rescue... typical.

 

Look at your own history and cast more stones.

[Park]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

In my case due to the length of time involved, I only felt I deserved compensation for expenses I wouldn't have incurred had I known the true nature of the book.

 

The price of the house in Poltergeist was a steal until the family found out it was constructed over the angry spirits of a never relocated graveyard.

 

If they remodeled, added a two car garage and had Big John's landscaping totally redo their front yard right before all hell breaks loose and little Hokie is sucked into the TV set... I would like to think their lawyer might be able to get them some damages on top of the cost of the house. I feel they would be owed something for the non disclosure.

 

I feel like I'm owed something for the non disclosure ... even though I'm not asking for a return on the "house".

 

 

You cant help yourself can you? How much would you have expected at year 5?

 

This is a discussion Hokie. If you have better ideas throw them out here.

 

I'm guessing your vast experience as a seller here should give you some insight. Wait... looking at your topics created page, it shows you have had exactly ONE SALES THREAD on the boards since you came here.

 

That said, don't you think it would be better for you to have at least some experience selling here before trying to convince me how to handle customers and how I feel they should be treated?

 

Please God... don't let someone with ONE SALE under his belt derail this discussion again.

 

 

 

Please God, don't let someone who basically does nothing but sell here, and who has a disgusting history here make all the rules.

 

 

You are awesome.

 

[jimjum12]

I feel that most buyers, like me, would just want restitution for expenses incurred after the sale (ie grading service fees, postage etc) and not a full refund.

 

While I support your claim and the amount, I don't agree with your calculation of the amount. I do not think we should institute a requirement for sellers to reimburse grading expenses, unless there is a specific agreement between buyer and seller.

 

There are very few goods sold which allow buyers to seek recompense from sellers in excess of the initial purchase price, which would be a common result of this policy.

 

All these points seem quite reasonable, from a certain point of view. Which is why I'm pretty sure there will be no consensus. I think it makes MORE sense to force SELLERS TO CLEARLY STATE THEIR RETURN POLICY, whatever it may be, and let the buyers decide how much risk they're willing to take. That is an enforceable rule, while the others....much murkier.

 

This.

 

...GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[CAHokie]

Rupp, I am glad you spent so much time researching me. You realize the flaw in your logic don't you? No...no you most likely don't. While researching me, I assume you noticed that while I do not sell I do buy. Maybe not $15,000 books but I buy $500 - $1,000 books several times a year along with smaller purchases and drek. I am actually arguing against what is in my own best interest. Wouldn't lifetime guarantees or even 2 or 3 years benefit me? My opinions are based on what I feel is right, not self interest. How is that derailing anything? Do only sellers get to have input on sales threads rules? If you ignore the rest, please answer that.

 

Also, your the one using my name in your comments and then blasting me for responding. That is also typical for you. I used to wonder why people gave you a hard time, because you seemed like a pleasant enough guy but the last 6 months or so have been very revealing.