First Silver Age App. of the JSA?

[samurai007]

My friend and I were debating this yesterday at the Wondercon, and I decided to post a poll here to get others opinions... What would you say is the "First Appearance of the JSA in the Silver Age?" There are 3 candidates, in chronological order:

 

Flash #129: The JSA appears only in a very quick flashback... they aren't physically there or involved in the story in any way. It's the 1st time the GA Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Black Canary, Dr. Midnight, and Wonder Woman are seen in the SA though.

 

Flash #137: The JSA physically appears for the 1st time, though they aren't major participants in the story (it's still mostly the 2 Flashes). They are on a total of 5 pages, 3 of those as helpless prisoners of Vandal Savage. Still, they do have speaking parts at the end, after the Flashes rescue them, and they decide to reform the JSA after being apart for many years. Also, 1st Johnny Thunder in SA.

 

JLA #21: Reintroduces the JSA as an ongoing part of the DC universe, beginning their annual team-ups with the JLA. They are a major part of the storyline, equal to the JLA. Also, Hourman and Dr. Fate appear for the 1st time in the Silver Age.

[john72tex]

I own all three books, so I guess I got my bases covered.

[Zonker]

There is actually a fourth candidate that sometimes gets mentioned: Showcase #34. On the letters page of this book-- that introduces the Silver Age Atom-- is a picture of the original JSA including the Golden Age Atom. Fandom reaction to that shot has been cited as one reason for Julie Schwartz to launch the whole Golden Age revival business starting in Flash 123.

 

It has been a while since I read Flash 129. I suppose if it is a flashback to something that happened prior to the Silver Age, then I would give the nod to Flash 137.

[jordanscott]

all good candidates however my fave is JLA 21.

 

jla is my fave SA title and this issue started the annual JLA/JSA x-overs that lasted for so many years and, to my mind anyway, helped keep the JSA as a whole alive.

 

i know....i know....a lot of the GA characters had guest spots, but JLA/JSA was always the big event of the year for me.

[tth2]

I own all three books, so I guess I got my bases covered.

 

Me too, but I'll say it's Flash 137.

[tth2]

all good candidates however my fave is JLA 21.

 

jla is my fave SA title and this issue started the annual JLA/JSA x-overs that lasted for so many years and, to my mind anyway, helped keep the JSA as a whole alive.

 

i know....i know....a lot of the GA characters had guest spots, but JLA/JSA was always the big event of the year for me.

 

JLA 21 is one of my favorite comics of all time, and the x-overs were always my favorite JLA stories.

[tilleycs]

I'd have to say Flash #137. IMO, flashbacks don't count as appearances.

[shadroch]

Flash 137,though JLA 21/22 are my favorite DC issues.

[Jeffreykli]

I vote for Flash 137 as well. But, isn't Showcase 55 the first SA appearance of the GA Green Lantern, not Flash 129?

[Currin Comics]

I did not read all the reply's but here is the lowdown.

 

Flash 129 is listed as a 1 panel "cameo"-this may be changing soon in the OS

 

Flash 137 1st SA app, and first real app. since 2-3/51(JSA decides to reform)

 

Justice Leauge # 21 is the first JSA/JLA crossover.

 

Once again, if this has been answered consider this overkill.

[Zonker]

I vote for Flash 137 as well. But, isn't Showcase 55 the first SA appearance of the GA Green Lantern, not Flash 129?

 

Not quite:

 

Flash, The #129

1959 Series - DC, June 1962

 

Flash, The #137

1959 Series - DC, June 1963

 

Justice League of America #21

1960 Series - DC, August 1963

Showcase #55

1956 Series - DC, March-April 1965

Green Lantern #40

1960 Series - DC, October 1965

[Zonker]

Flash #129: The JSA appears only in a very quick flashback... they aren't physically there or involved in the story in any way. It's the 1st time the GA Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Black Canary, Dr. Midnight, and Wonder Woman are seen in the SA though.

 

So I just checked my reader copy of Flash #129: There are the equivalent of 2 pages where the JSA appear, with each member appearing in no more than 2 panels. This occurs as Jay Garrick is reflecting with his wife on the final GA JSA adventure from All-Star Comics 57. Then-- the trip down memory lane complete-- Jay travels to visit Barry Allen on Earth-1, and the story begins.

 

Therefore, I'd say this flashback is no more of a Silver Age "appearance" than the JSA members shown on the lettercol of Showcase 34.

 

Flash 137 all the way!

[samurai007]

Flash #129: The JSA appears only in a very quick flashback... they aren't physically there or involved in the story in any way. It's the 1st time the GA Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Black Canary, Dr. Midnight, and Wonder Woman are seen in the SA though.

 

So I just checked my reader copy of Flash #129: There are the equivalent of 2 pages where the JSA appear, with each member appearing in no more than 2 panels. This occurs as Jay Garrick is reflecting with his wife on the final GA JSA adventure from All-Star Comics 57. Then-- the trip down memory lane complete-- Jay travels to visit Barry Allen on Earth-1, and the story begins.

 

Therefore, I'd say this flashback is no more of a Silver Age "appearance" than the JSA members shown on the lettercol of Showcase 34.

 

Flash 137 all the way!

Well, I do feel it's more significant than the letter col in Showcase... it's new art done during the silver age, not a reprint of golden age art, and it takes place during the story itself. It's true that the JSA has no speaking parts, are not physically there (it's just a flashback), and they are not involved in the main story. However, I'm not entirely sure those are all legitimate requirements for a character's "first appearance"... I really don't have a definite answer myself, though I'd say it's a toss up between the Flash issues, IMHO. I really don't understand how the JLA 21 can be considered their "1st appearance", though as I said, 2 of my friends believe it is...

[burntboy]

Flash #129: The JSA appears only in a very quick flashback... they aren't physically there or involved in the story in any way. It's the 1st time the GA Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Black Canary, Dr. Midnight, and Wonder Woman are seen in the SA though.

 

So I just checked my reader copy of Flash #129: There are the equivalent of 2 pages where the JSA appear, with each member appearing in no more than 2 panels. This occurs as Jay Garrick is reflecting with his wife on the final GA JSA adventure from All-Star Comics 57. Then-- the trip down memory lane complete-- Jay travels to visit Barry Allen on Earth-1, and the story begins.

 

Therefore, I'd say this flashback is no more of a Silver Age "appearance" than the JSA members shown on the lettercol of Showcase 34.

 

Flash 137 all the way!

 

hard to debate your logic, but i voted for flash #129. 2 pages devoted to the JSA is, IMHO, more than a cameo.

 

what i can't understand is why almost half of the folks are voting for JLA #21. the poll asks for their 1st silver age appearance, not their first full-fledged adventure.

 

i always recall Roy Thomas remarking in Alter Ego (1961) that he felt that the picture of the original JSA in Showcase #34, was as much the reason for the Atom getting his own book as the character/concept itself. i was with Roy in hoping that they'd have given Hawkman his own book much earlier..........i believe it was Roy (or maybe Jerry Bails) who created the stamp they used which said "Save Hawkman"............

[tth2]

Flash #129: The JSA appears only in a very quick flashback... they aren't physically there or involved in the story in any way. It's the 1st time the GA Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Black Canary, Dr. Midnight, and Wonder Woman are seen in the SA though.

 

So I just checked my reader copy of Flash #129: There are the equivalent of 2 pages where the JSA appear, with each member appearing in no more than 2 panels. This occurs as Jay Garrick is reflecting with his wife on the final GA JSA adventure from All-Star Comics 57. Then-- the trip down memory lane complete-- Jay travels to visit Barry Allen on Earth-1, and the story begins.

 

Therefore, I'd say this flashback is no more of a Silver Age "appearance" than the JSA members shown on the lettercol of Showcase 34.

 

Flash 137 all the way!

Well, I do feel it's more significant than the letter col in Showcase... it's new art done during the silver age, not a reprint of golden age art, and it takes place during the story itself. It's true that the JSA has no speaking parts, are not physically there (it's just a flashback), and they are not involved in the main story. However, I'm not entirely sure those are all legitimate requirements for a character's "first appearance"... I really don't have a definite answer myself, though I'd say it's a toss up between the Flash issues, IMHO. I really don't understand how the JLA 21 can be considered their "1st appearance", though as I said, 2 of my friends believe it is...

 

I guess under the new terminology that Arnold mentioned they were going to introduce in the new OS, #129 would be a "brief appearance" and #137 would be a "first appearance".

[tth2]

i always recall Roy Thomas remarking in Alter Ego (1961) that he felt that the picture of the original JSA in Showcase #34, was as much the reason for the Atom getting his own book as the character/concept itself. i was with Roy in hoping that they'd have given Hawkman his own book much earlier..........i believe it was Roy (or maybe Jerry Bails) who created the stamp they used which said "Save Hawkman"............

 

Interesting. I've never really thought about the fact that the SA Hawkman appearances (B&B 34-36) came out well before the first SA Atoms (Showcase 34-36), but Atom got his own book much sooner, whereas they made Hawkman do another B&B run (42-44) before they gave him his own book (way later in 1964). Was Atom really that much more popular than Hawkman at the time?

[Zonker]

That is a mystery.

 

Here's complete speculation, I don't have any evidence for this, but what if...

 

The choice of which books to launch had as much to do with artist availability as it did sales reports? Remember in 1960s DC, you have each editor with his own stable of artists: Julie Schwartz had a lock on Gil Kane, Infantino, Murphy Anderson, Giella, etc. Kanigher worked with Ross Andru. Kashdan had Nick Cardy. Weisinger used Curt Swan.

 

So you have Joe Kubert "on loan" to Julie for the B&B Hawkman, but his primary focus was on the WWII books. On the other hand, Gil Kane could pencil two books at the schedule they were being published, and apart from GL, Kane was only drawing a handful of SF shorts for Julie's Mystery in Space and Strange Adventures. Since Gil was available, they launched the Atom, and waited for Kubert to have some extra time to do that second B&B tryout. After that, everyone realized Kubert was too valuable to the "war effort" (ha!) and gave the Hawkman strip to Murphy Anderson for first the Mystery in Space run and then the solo Hawkman book.

 

Either that, or else all the Moms of the early 60s thought Kubert's Hawkman was too scary for their kids to read and refused to buy them!

[burntboy]

That is a mystery.

 

Here's complete speculation, I don't have any evidence for this, but what if...

 

The choice of which books to launch had as much to do with artist availability as it did sales reports? Remember in 1960s DC, you have each editor with his own stable of artists: Julie Schwartz had a lock on Gil Kane, Infantino, Murphy Anderson, Giella, etc. Kanigher worked with Ross Andru. Kashdan had Nick Cardy. Weisinger used Curt Swan.

 

So you have Joe Kubert "on loan" to Julie for the B&B Hawkman, but his primary focus was on the WWII books. On the other hand, Gil Kane could pencil two books at the schedule they were being published, and apart from GL, Kane was only drawing a handful of SF shorts for Julie's Mystery in Space and Strange Adventures. Since Gil was available, they launched the Atom, and waited for Kubert to have some extra time to do that second B&B tryout. After that, everyone realized Kubert was too valuable to the "war effort" (ha!) and gave the Hawkman strip to Murphy Anderson for first the Mystery in Space run and then the solo Hawkman book.

 

Either that, or else all the Moms of the early 60s thought Kubert's Hawkman was too scary for their kids to read and refused to buy them!

 

Very interesting speculation......... sounds very logical to me........

 

also interesting that OS considers Hawkmans MIS run 87-90 to be Hawkman's third tryout. Infantino artwork stopped right after Hawkman departed and the great look he brought to those books vanished and adam strange only then lasted another sad 12 issues. Injecting Space Ranger for 11 issues didn't help and niether did the intoduction of Ultra,the multi-alien.

 

seemed like adding Hawkman was more of an effort to save a flagging book then give him another tryout. i got out of collecting with the january 1965 issue of Hawkman - never understood how such a popular GA character who looked so totally cool, could have had such a tough time getting his own book and maintaining popularity. in alter ego #4, roy thomas mentions the rather incongruous fact that the Alley Award winner for best character not having their own book, went to Hawkman by a landslide followed up by Adam Strange, Atom and Human Torch in that order. (and there were approx 750 ballots sent out to general fandom).

 

this note caused me to pull out that copy of Alter Ego from the fall of 1962. i treasure that fanzine as one of the coolest pieces of memorabilia that i own. Jerry Bails was "bailing" out as editor and Ron Foss was taking over. Roy thomas was holding court on the Alley awards for 1961. Howard Keltner had a 9 page article on the MLJ (archie) super heroes. jack kirby contributed a sketch of the Thing. and so on............just great stuff.

[Norrin_Radd]

all good candidates however my fave is JLA 21.

 

jla is my fave SA title and this issue started the annual JLA/JSA x-overs that lasted for so many years and, to my mind anyway, helped keep the JSA as a whole alive.

 

i know....i know....a lot of the GA characters had guest spots, but JLA/JSA was always the big event of the year for me.

 

JLA 21 is one of my favorite comics of all time, and the x-overs were always my favorite JLA stories.

 

I love how JLA #21 mirrors All-Star #8.

 

 

[nearmint]

all good candidates however my fave is JLA 21.

 

jla is my fave SA title and this issue started the annual JLA/JSA x-overs that lasted for so many years and, to my mind anyway, helped keep the JSA as a whole alive.

 

i know....i know....a lot of the GA characters had guest spots, but JLA/JSA was always the big event of the year for me.

 

JLA 21 is one of my favorite comics of all time, and the x-overs were always my favorite JLA stories.

 

I love how JLA #21 mirrors All-Star #8.

 

 

 

And #29 as well...