Rankings for Dealers

[FFB]

GARY DOLGOFF:

quality of inventory in focal area(s): 5

breadth of inventory: 9

customer service 8

reputation 8

historical notable sales 4

grading accuracy 9 (too strict in many cases)

experience 8

internet accesibility 8

dealer personality 8

FINAL GRADE: 7.44

 

NEATSTUFFCOLLECTIBLES.COM (Mike Carbonaro)

quality of inventory in focal area(s) 6

breadth of inventory 8

customer service 2

reputation 5

historical notable sales 7

grading accuracy 6

experience 7

internet accesibility 4 (ebay only)

dealer personality 7 (Wacky, but nice)

FINAL GRADE: 5.78

 

What sorts of books have you bought from these two?

 

My experience with Dolgoff (5 or 6 Bronze age books) had them all overgraded.

 

On the other hand, Neat Stuff was spot on (if not slightly conservative) for the 2 Bronze books I got from him.

 

Thanks for the list!

Fan4Fan

 

I'd have to go back and check. I've bought many books from NeatStuff over the years, and a few from Dolgoff (mostly bronze stuff).

[Foolkiller]

Once upon a time I used to buy more books of higher quality and more expense. Since the CGC explosion (and the law school debt) I've been more limited. But I try and talk to everyone and gather information about all dealers. Some of those guys I've dealt with a lot, some I've gotten to know, and others I've just seen so many damn times, I feel like I know them. But as Bob pointed out, as buyers, we'd probably buy from the devil if the price were right. Although I don't think I would... but maybe I would, who knows.

 

Holy Moly. I'm impressed. You guys must have bought alot of books to be familiar with all these guys. Outside of conventions I only buy off of Ebay, so I have a few favorite Ebay dealers but that's it. I've heard the names of all the guys mentioned here, but I've never bought from any of them outside of a convention. And as far as conventions go, the prices vary all over the place between different dealers. I could care less what grade these guys put on the sticker but it does matter how they price the books relating to their given grade. For example, I'd never buy a book from Harley, he may grade well but his books are priced too high. Recently at Wondercon I bought a bunch of books from A-1. They priced very reasonably and I'd buy from them again anytime. However, they were not the friendliest guys in the world. I'll take fair pricing over customer service anyday. And I'd never return a book that I bought in person for any reason so how they deal with returns is not a concern either (online different, of course).

 

If I was buying books in the $1,000 and up range I may want to get to know these big dealers a little better. But for my purposes I don't care who the convention dealer is, just matters how they price their books. Only other factor to me is how they display them. I'm more apt to shop with a dealer who has neatly displayed books in new bags or mylars than those dealers with disorganized boxes with comics in dirty yellowing bags or without backing boards.

[FFB]

But that's why I won't rank Mark Wilson on my list. If you don't sell any raw, then I think you limit yourself as a dealer and don't have a wide enough appeal. I consider the other dealers more top flight only because they appeal to the whole gamut of collectors. I also think it's unfair to give Mark a 10 for grading just because he only sells CGC books, when it's harder to be accurate on raw books, and thus a more deserved 10.

 

Hey, i'm just splitting hairs... I'm just having a little fun here anyway... like the hoops rankings, they're kind of meaningless...

 

The whole point of the grading score is, "When I buy a book from a dealer, is it going to be the grade that the dealer represents?"

 

Leaving aside the whole "Do I or don't I always agree with CGC's grading" issue, for Mark Wilson, the answer is "Yes" -- 100% of the time the advertised grade on his book will match what CGC would give it, because CGC has already graded the book.

 

It makes no difference to me whether he gets to 100% because he spends years and years studying the grading guide and CGC graded books to get his grading as close as possible to Steve Borock's, or whether he instead decides to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get his entire stock professionally graded. As long as I am always assured of getting the book in the grade that I ordered it, then I can't give Mark anything other than a 10.

[jbud73]

It is hard to quatify some of those things Scott. Like I said I don't even View Comic Link as a dealer - he doest have the books in his possession when they are for sale On Raw books how can this be a positive. That is exactly why I came up with an all things being equal scenario. As when it comes to comics I think a $1000 or over book for most people is a larger item. So when put in the situation like the one I described things become clearer, you throw out all the extraneous stuff and the decision becomes clearer.

 

I guess I am still of the opinion that what I buy and how much I pay are important - but who I give my money too is still a big factor for me because in giving them my business I feel I am also given tacit acceptance of their business practises.

[Foolkiller]

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but doesn't that kind of screw up the points system, because it unfavorably weights a dealer who exclusively sells CGC? Just because CGC grades it, doesn't mean you personally will agree with the grade or like the book (as you wanted left out, I'm just throwing it back out there). This was one of the reasons I didn't include Mark on the list at all. Not that he isn't a very good dealer... I just think he doesn't put a whole lot out there for sale, and I think in an individual points system, he'd be getting a hidden bump.

 

I don't think you can give Mark anything but a 10 either under your definition. Since I don't break down each category but give a more overall score, I just didn't address that issue.

[BassGMan]

 

I thought about adding pricing, but then decided not to. Pricing is so hard to quantify on a scale like this. Sometimes they're high, sometimes they're low, and sometimes the dealer doesn't set the price.

 

Chuck R. is known for some supremely high prices, and yet the last eight books that I purchased from him were priced ridiculously below market value. Do I give him a 1, a 10, or a 5?

 

Metropolis has Edgar Church books priced at what some would consider "nosebleed" prices, and yet how can you fault them for that? Their business model is not based on the need to turn over all of their inventory every year, and the Church books are essentially irreplaceable once they've sold. How do you quantify this on a pricing score?

 

Josh from ComicLink doesn't set his own prices because the books are listed by the individual sellers. How can we fault Josh for high prices that he doesn't set? And what score do we give him?

 

Anyone who had excellent pricing would almost necessarily suffer from poor depth of inventory. The two would tend to cancel each other out. I think it's better to just leave pricing out of it.

 

As for Mark Wilson's grading, he gets a 10 because he ONLY sells CGC books. Thus, on a "What would CGC grade this book" scale, he's correct every time. Hence the 10.

 

Great post. Pure logic and great reasoning.

[Rip]

I think on PGC

I'd say NA (Only CGC books) Or I guess a 10 would be fine

 

On pricing, well I think the best way to determine that is by how often you buy from that person.

If your giving a lot of money to him/doing lots of transactions, then you think his pricing is must be good. All dealers have some crappy prices.

 

Chuck has some bad prices, but he also has lots of good deals.

If you are buying from him more than say PCE,(which I would give a 4) then Chuck has better prices. So for me Chuck 7 PCE 4

 

Metropolis has very high prices on some books, yet I do more business with them than, say Chuck. So I'd give them say an 8.

ComicLink is Josh's site. The prices on that site represent ComicLink. Many sites don't have one person setting the price. Doesn't matter if Josh sets them or not. Since I don't do much business with Comiclink I'd put him at a 6 or 7. (But sometime if your quick enough, you can get a deal)

BTW I'd give PGCMINT around the same as PCE around a 4.

[nearmint]

But as Bob pointed out, as buyers, we'd probably buy from the devil if the price were right.

 

Um...does have a new catalog out?

[Foolkiller]

Yes. In exchange for your immortal soul, you can buy an Action Comics #1 NM for $10.

[nearmint]

Do I get to take it with me to hell?

[Foolkiller]

No.

[OldGuy]

But as Bob pointed out, as buyers, we'd probably buy from the devil if the price were right.

 

People do it all time on Ebay with Comic Keys and dozens of other criminals.

[FFB]

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but doesn't that kind of screw up the points system, because it unfavorably weights a dealer who exclusively sells CGC?

 

I think you mean "unfairly weights," rather than "unfavorably weights."

 

To answer the question, no, I don't think it unfairly weights things in favor of that dealer. The bottom line is whether the buyer is satisfied with the transaction. If he is buying a CGC-graded book with a nice, clear scan of the book (which Mark has on his site, and will email you a bigger one if you ask), the buyer will almost never be dissatisfied with what comes in the mail.

 

If a seller does not send his books to CGC, it takes a lot more skill for the seller to make every buyer happy (and not every buyer will be happy, CGC graded or raw). But at the end of the day, it doesn't make much difference to the buyer whether he got the book he wanted because the dealer is a highly skilled grader, or because the dealer has a big wallet and paid CGC to grade all of his inventory. What matters in most cases is "What grade is the book?" and having the CGC grade on the label will comfort most buyers even if there is the occasional legitimate question about a book that is a tweener and got a higher grade.

[FFB]

I think on PGC

I'd say NA (Only CGC books) Or I guess a 10 would be fine

 

On pricing, well I think the best way to determine that is by how often you buy from that person.

If your giving a lot of money to him/doing lots of transactions, then you think his pricing is must be good. All dealers have some crappy prices.

 

Chuck has some bad prices, but he also has lots of good deals.

If you are buying from him more than say PCE,(which I would give a 4) then Chuck has better prices. So for me Chuck 7 PCE 4

 

Metropolis has very high prices on some books, yet I do more business with them than, say Chuck. So I'd give them say an 8.

ComicLink is Josh's site. The prices on that site represent ComicLink. Many sites don't have one person setting the price. Doesn't matter if Josh sets them or not. Since I don't do much business with Comiclink I'd put him at a 6 or 7. (But sometime if your quick enough, you can get a deal)

I'd give PGCMINT around the same as PCE around a 4.

 

The problem with that is that each dealer has different books. It isn't like they're all sitting around with identical CGC 9.4 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #5 priced at different levels, such that I can just pick the one with the best price. Also, dealers like Mile High have great deals on certain newer books, but are sky high on older books. If I am buying just newer books, then do I give Chuck a 10 for his pricing, yet give him a 2 if I am purely buying silver age books from him?

 

Who I shop with more is more a function of what the dealer has in his inventory than what his prices are. If dealers routinely price things out of whack with the market, they don't stay in business. I think that the longevity of each of these dealers (Doug Schmell notwithstanding, since he's a new kid on the block as a dealer) shows that they tend to be within the ballpark on most items, and on those where they aren't, there's usually something having to do with rarity/high demand involved.

[Foolkiller]

you're right "unfairly weights" is proper. In fact, the way I wrote it doesn't even sound right.

 

Anyway, I still think that in the context of the scoring system, you're penalizing someone for carrying a raw inventory because they can never be a "10" (because nobody is perfect all the time). I understand it only matters whether the grade is accurate and that is what will make the buyer happy. But I'm just looking at the scoring: it has a built in advantage for CGC only sellers. Even if you've rated guys like Sulipa a "10" based on your experience for grading, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit he mistakes on his raw books, hence the best any raw grader could ever be is a "9" or "9.whatever". Thus in my mind the inherent flaw is, you can only be a "10" by selling CGC books exclusively, and that appears to cause an automatic penalty to raw dealers. That in turn affects the overall number score and average that results.

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but doesn't that kind of screw up the points system, because it unfavorably weights a dealer who exclusively sells CGC?

 

I think you mean "unfairly weights," rather than "unfavorably weights."

 

To answer the question, no, I don't think it unfairly weights things in favor of that dealer. The bottom line is whether the buyer is satisfied with the transaction. If he is buying a CGC-graded book with a nice, clear scan of the book (which Mark has on his site, and will email you a bigger one if you ask), the buyer will almost never be dissatisfied with what comes in the mail.

 

If a seller does not send his books to CGC, it takes a lot more skill for the seller to make every buyer happy (and not every buyer will be happy, CGC graded or raw). But at the end of the day, it doesn't make much difference to the buyer whether he got the book he wanted because the dealer is a highly skilled grader, or because the dealer has a big wallet and paid CGC to grade all of his inventory. What matters in most cases is "What grade is the book?" and having the CGC grade on the label will comfort most buyers even if there is the occasional legitimate question about a book that is a tweener and got a higher grade.

[Rip]

I think on PGC

I'd say NA (Only CGC books) Or I guess a 10 would be fine

 

On pricing, well I think the best way to determine that is by how often you buy from that person.

If your giving a lot of money to him/doing lots of transactions, then you think his pricing is must be good. All dealers have some crappy prices.

 

Chuck has some bad prices, but he also has lots of good deals.

If you are buying from him more than say PCE,(which I would give a 4) then Chuck has better prices. So for me Chuck 7 PCE 4

 

Metropolis has very high prices on some books, yet I do more business with them than, say Chuck. So I'd give them say an 8.

ComicLink is Josh's site. The prices on that site represent ComicLink. Many sites don't have one person setting the price. Doesn't matter if Josh sets them or not. Since I don't do much business with Comiclink I'd put him at a 6 or 7. (But sometime if your quick enough, you can get a deal)

I'd give PGCMINT around the same as PCE around a 4.

 

The problem with that is that each dealer has different books. It isn't like they're all sitting around with identical CGC 9.4 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #5 priced at different levels, such that I can just pick the one with the best price. Also, dealers like Mile High have great deals on certain newer books, but are sky high on older books. If I am buying just newer books, then do I give Chuck a 10 for his pricing, yet give him a 2 if I am purely buying silver age books from him?

 

Who I shop with more is more a function of what the dealer has in his inventory than what his prices are. If dealers routinely price things out of whack with the market, they don't stay in business. I think that the longevity of each of these dealers (Doug Schmell notwithstanding, since he's a new kid on the block as a dealer) shows that they tend to be within the ballpark on most items, and on those where they aren't, there's usually something having to do with rarity/high demand involved.

I disagee, they do often have the same identical CGC 9.4 or 9.6 copies.

I see this frequently. I just picked up an Aquaman 56 (9.6 W) for less than half the price of PGC's from Metropolis. I've seen this other times also. I'll wait until it hits on e-bay or other places before I'd get it from Mark. Nothing against the guy (I know he's a great guy) but its almost always the LAST place to go. (....and I'll bet I'm not the only one thinking this)

 

Again I addressed those other issues. It all depends on what YOU buy and how many purchases you give to what dealer. To a modern age collector Chuck may rate higher than I would rate him.. That helps determines their score. Inventory of cource makes a huge difference. How much dealing do you do with PGCMINT?

[FlyingDonut]

Many of my favorite dealers aren't on this list:

 

1. Marc Nathan

2. Jamie Graham

3. Bedrock City Collectibles

4. Ted Van Liew

5. Gary Colabuono

 

etc etc etc

[FFB]

you're right "unfairly weights" is proper. In fact, the way I wrote it doesn't even sound right.

 

Anyway, I still think that in the context of the scoring system, you're penalizing someone for carrying a raw inventory because they can never be a "10" (because nobody is perfect all the time). I understand it only matters whether the grade is accurate and that is what will make the buyer happy. But I'm just looking at the scoring: it has a built in advantage for CGC only sellers. Even if you've rated guys like Sulipa a "10" based on your experience for grading, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit he mistakes on his raw books, hence the best any raw grader could ever be is a "9" or "9.whatever". Thus in my mind the inherent flaw is, you can only be a "10" by selling CGC books exclusively, and that appears to cause an automatic penalty to raw dealers. That in turn affects the overall number score and average that results.

 

I am not penalizing raw graders at all. It's just that if they don't spend the money to have their inventory certified, then they have to be accurate almost every time in order to get a 10. For dealers who sell some signficant portion of their inventory raw, I gave Doug Sulipa, Andy Coleman, and Josh Nathanson 10s for grading and in the case of Doug Sulipa and Andy Coleman, I have purchased exactly zero CGC graded comics from either of them.

 

Until today when Josh mentioned it, I have never heard of anyone who bought a raw book from ComicLink that was lower grade than represented after Josh checked it. As of now, I've heard of exactly one book.

 

As for Doug and Andy, they are both spot on in their raw grading. Out of around 20-30 books or so that I've purchased from Andy, every book has been either dead on or slightly better than he graded it.

 

As for Doug Sulipa, every book I've purchased from Doug except one book has been exactly where he graded it, or 50% of the time, one grade or more higher than he graded it. The one book that I purchased from Doug that was overgraded was an ASM#52 that he sold to me as a VF/NM that was actually a VF, because he just missed something on the book (interior tanning). (He took the book back cheerfully, with an avalanche of apologies.) There were more than 50 other accurately graded books in the same batch that I bought from Doug and in about half the cases, I graded the books (using my understanding of how CGC would grade them) at least one level higher than Doug did (his 9.2 is what most people, including CGC, call a 9.4). One example is the Ms. Marvel #18 Manitoba copy I bought from him as a raw 9.2. It's in a CGC 9.4 holder now. The Savage Tales Magazine #1 I bought as an 8.5 came back CGC 9.2. This is because Doug grades his magazines the same way as he does his comics. He does not give softer grades on magazines because they are bigger, like CGC does.

 

Most of the discrepancies between Doug's grades and CGC's grades come from the fact that Doug actually follows Overstreet's grading standards relating to miswraps. If the book is slightly miswrapped, Doug downgrades for it in the 9.6-9.2 level, whereas CGC usually does not. I tend to agree with Doug and Overstreet on this one, therefore I don't hold his "too strict when compared to CGC's scale" grading standards against him.

 

The way I arrive at a grading score of 10 for a raw dealer is that if a dealer is 95% of the time either dead-on or within one grade either way of strict Overstreet standards, that is the best that a collector can expect and that dealer would get a 10. If he is usually very accurate in almost every case but has sent out a book to me that was vastly overgraded (say a VF+ that was in reality a VG/FN), then I'd give the dealer a 9. A grading score of 9 is still a damn good grading score.

[FFB]

Again I addressed those other issues. It all depends on what YOU buy and how many purchases you give to what dealer. To a modern age collector Chuck may rate higher than I would rate him.. That helps determines their score. Inventory also of cource makes a huge difference. How much dealing do you do with PGCMINT?

 

They were not identical copies. They were different copies with the same CGC grade. Page quality and QP may have differed greatly (or maybe not). In any event, my point is not that no two dealers each have a copy of one book in the same CGC grade. My point is that they ALL (every one of them) don't have enough identical copies of multiple books across various ages and genres to draw any meaningful comparisons on a book-by-book basis.

 

As for how much I deal with PGCMint, it is admittedly, not much. But that has more to do with the fact that I do not collect "highest certified copies" of anything, nor do I usually buy Golden Age books (which is the bulk of his inventory), than it does with his pricing. If I were a highest certified copy collector, I'd spend a lot more money with Mark. Likewise, if Mark had the highest certified copy of the three or four books where I actually want the top copy, I'd buy from him.

 

As for the other issues, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think pricing should factor in because it is too hard to quantify without someone actually doing what rob_react did with Mile High and Metropolis, and that's just too much work to do if you're going to do it with all of the dealers.

[Rip]

Again I addressed those other issues. It all depends on what YOU buy and how many purchases you give to what dealer. To a modern age collector Chuck may rate higher than I would rate him.. That helps determines their score. Inventory also of cource makes a huge difference. How much dealing do you do with PGCMINT?

 

They were not identical copies. They were different copies with the same CGC grade. Page quality and QP may have differed greatly (or maybe not). In any event, my point is not that no two dealers each have a copy of one book in the same CGC grade. My point is that they ALL (every one of them) don't have enough identical copies of multiple books across various ages and genres to draw any meaningful comparisons on a book-by-book basis.

 

As for how much I deal with PGCMint, it is admittedly, not much. But that has more to do with the fact that I do not collect "highest certified copies" of anything, nor do I usually buy Golden Age books (which is the bulk of his inventory), than it does with his pricing. If I were a highest certified copy collector, I'd spend a lot more money with Mark. Likewise, if Mark had the highest certified copy of the three or four books where I actually want the top copy, I'd buy from him.

 

As for the other issues, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think pricing should factor in because it is too hard to quantify without someone actually doing what rob_react did with Mile High and Metropolis, and that's just too much work to do if you're going to do it with all of the dealers.

 

No not "Exactly" identical, mine has WP. My point of cource is, with a little time you can many times find that same comprable copy, for MUCH MUCH less. In Mark's case his pricing makes it hard to do business with him and if your not doing much business with him, I find it hard for him to be at the top of your list. Get it?