a Metropolis vs. CGC grading thread

[fifties]

 

Foolkiller each year does his handy-dandy annual top 10 dealer review, and under his rankings Metro and HA each year go back-and-forth for 1st and 2nd place. I agree.

Doesn't say much then for the other dealers, does it.

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Foolkiller each year does his handy-dandy annual top 10 dealer review, and under his rankings Metro and HA each year go back-and-forth for 1st and 2nd place. I agree.

Doesn't say much then for the other dealers, does it.

 

 

Most of the dealers I know are excellent. They're friendly, great to deal with and stand behind their sales with good return policies. When you add in Metro's depth of inventory and expanding business model (storefront, competitive auctions, art gallery), it's understandable why they deserve high marks. That doesn't take anything away from other dealers who deliver great customer service. My

[Sqeggs]

 

Foolkiller each year does his handy-dandy annual top 10 dealer review, and under his rankings Metro and HA each year go back-and-forth for 1st and 2nd place. I agree.

Doesn't say much then for the other dealers, does it.

 

 

Most of the dealers I know are excellent. They're friendly, great to deal with and stand behind their sales with good return policies. When you add in Metro's depth of inventory and expanding business model (storefront, competitive auctions, art gallery), it's understandable why they deserve high marks. That doesn't take anything away from other dealers who deliver great customer service. My

 

... are the scum of the earth, enlisted for drink!

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Silver Surfer]

To Vinnie's credit he has taken a more public presence for Metro in recent years and seems to work tirelessly to be responsive to requests and address complaints posted on these boards. Keep in mind that they have had a lot more on their plates with the launching of ComicConnect, the gallery, increased staff, etc so to handle all this with a more personal touch is impressive.

[GoldenPRGuy]

I've been deciding whether or not to chime in. I haven't slabbed that much of my collection, and therefore don't really have any raw-to-slabbed Metro comparisons to offer. Nevertheless, with 30 years of collecting under my belt I have bought from most everyone more than once, and while I can't say that everyone is guilty of the occasional oversight or reach in grade, I have seen it pretty consistently over time -- from some with greater frequency than others.

 

With regard to Metro, they may not always be right on point, but I like them. I think they have an amazing inventory that continues to grow all the time, I find them enjoyable to work with, and I have never had a problem with their service or the product I have received. If I'm searching for something, they are always one of my top 5 calls/web searches.

 

As Cat and others said, grading is an art and subjective. I am not ashamed to admit it's not one I've got the best handle on, but I'd like to think if push came to shove I could get close ... and maybe this is crazy, but I expect the same from those I buy from. Do the best you can and get close. If you're off by a half a point, I'll live. If you're off by a point, we'll talk. If you're way off I'm returning the book.

 

The caveat is that less than 1% of my Golden Age collection is 9.0 or higher where mistakes could have a major impact on value so I get that some might feel differently. Also, these days I pretty much limit my purchases to slabs to eliminate the surprise ... but even I know that if I cracked any given issue and resubmitted it to CGC there is no guarantee that it would come back the same grade ... probably just close.

[Dark Knight]

To Vinnie's credit he has taken a more public presence for Metro in recent years and seems to work tirelessly to be responsive to requests and address complaints posted on these boards. Keep in mind that they have had a lot more on their plates with the launching of ComicConnect, the gallery, increased staff, etc so to handle all this with a more personal touch is impressive.

 

This. If there's any problem at all, I suggest to contact Vinnie.

[dannyboy]

Chamber of Chills 23

CC - 7.5

CGC - 6.5

 

However, looking at the scans all of us bidders must have thought 7.5 was aggressive as it ended up going for $185 a couple years ago which was a pretty decent price. Can't remember if I pressed it.

 

Bought 3 Venus 18's from Metro and didn't press any of them. I know the title says CGC, but I figured it was more about Metro than CGC.

 

Venus 18 #1

 

Metro - 2.5 (OW)

CBCS - 3.0 (OW)

 

Venus 18 #2

 

Metro - 3.5 (can't remember - maybe CROW)

CBCS - 3.5 (OWW) restored - tear seals on spine

 

Metro said they'd give me store credit but not refund grading/shipping fees for the undisclosed restoration. I said I'd trade for an awesome Marvel Boy #2 8.0 that they had listed but then they said they couldn't find it. Then they said they'd refund the money but that was a couple weeks ago and now there's some delay there but I assume I'll get my money back. For the record, I returned the book and it was posted and sold again (for less, of course) before I even had a conversation about getting a refund. Apparently, they don't delay about everything.

 

Venus 18 #3

 

Metro - 4.5 (OW)

CBCS - 5.5 (W)

 

 

[Gotham Kid]

To Vinnie's credit he has taken a more public presence for Metro in recent years and seems to work tirelessly to be responsive to requests and address complaints posted on these boards. Keep in mind that they have had a lot more on their plates with the launching of ComicConnect, the gallery, increased staff, etc so to handle all this with a more personal touch is impressive.

 

This. If there's any problem at all, I suggest to contact Vinnie.

 

+1

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Foolkiller each year does his handy-dandy annual top 10 dealer review, and under his rankings Metro and HA each year go back-and-forth for 1st and 2nd place. I agree.

Doesn't say much then for the other dealers, does it.

 

 

Most of the dealers I know are excellent. They're friendly, great to deal with and stand behind their sales with good return policies. When you add in Metro's depth of inventory and expanding business model (storefront, competitive auctions, art gallery), it's understandable why they deserve high marks. That doesn't take anything away from other dealers who deliver great customer service. My

 

... are the scum of the earth, enlisted for drink!

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

Funny you should mention enlisting dealers for imbibing beverages.

 

Fuzzy photo taken earlier this evening at the Publican restaurant & ale house in downtown Chicago... (*hic!*)

 

 

[comicjack]

Somehow i knew that brew would be in the stew

[Heronext]

Metro said they'd give me store credit but not refund grading/shipping fees for the undisclosed restoration. I said I'd trade for an awesome Marvel Boy #2 8.0 that they had listed but then they said they couldn't find it. Then they said they'd refund the money but that was a couple weeks ago and now there's some delay there but I assume I'll get my money back. For the record, I returned the book and it was posted and sold again (for less, of course) before I even had a conversation about getting a refund. Apparently, they don't delay about everything.

 

Venus 18 #3

 

Metro - 4.5 (OW)

CBCS - 5.5 (W)

 

 

This "store credit" B.S. is a real sore point for me. In my case it was a similar book that came back with color touch. I've spent an incredible amount of time trying to get my $400 back. The other day I found a book I thought I wouldn't mind having and found it elsewhere in the market cheaper. There's a thing or 2 on Amazon, but I'm told those listings are exclusive to that venue - therefore, can't use my credit on them. Wouldn't buy from Metro on Amazon anyway when I know I can deal directly with them.

[BEAUMONTS]

 

Years ago, before CGC, I purchased some GA books from a Metro ad in the CBG. They seemed to be graded appropriately, all were in the VF+ to NM- range. When I decided to purge any GA books from my collection I brought the books to Metro at a show in Chicago, offering them for sale. As a buyer, they offered me Overstreet guide @ the FN price, stating none of the books were higher than FN/VF. I walked away and have never done business with them again. I think they have an elite clientele who they treat properly, hence the testimony from DavidMerryweather above. If you spend a lot of money with them, you will get treated properly. If you are just an occasional customer, well, no comment.

 

"Grading

 

Metropolis Collectibles created the 10 point grading scale used throughout the world of comic collecting. The owners are both Senior Overstreet Price Guide Advisors and our other graders are Overstreet Price Guide Advisors as well. Collectively, our team has over 100 years of comic book grading experience. Everyday we strive to give our comics the most accurate grades possible. We thank you for your patronage and hope you enjoy your purchases.

Metropolis guarantees that only books described as restored are restored. In the rare case you discover a book Metropolis sold you as unrestored is restored Metropolis will give you a 100% refund within the first 14 days. We consider books graded by CGC and placed into a blue, Universal holder to be unrestored. Customers are responsible for any expenses incurred in the discovery of restoration or shipping costs.

 

In the rare event that your item is currently out of stock, you will be notified promptly and receive a full refund."

 

You would think that since they "created" the ten point grading scale that it shouldn't change with the advent of CGC, you would also like to believe that there purchase grading and selling grading would correlate because of the 10 point system. Apparently not.

This either indicates - there grading is all over the board

- rose colored glasses when selling magnifying glass when purchasing

- That you are not in the upper echelon in the BSD club. So you are relegated to peasant status.

 

Why would anyone think that?

 

CGC doesn't discuss their proprietory grading methods. If our hosts used exactly the same scale as the OS/Metro guidelines, why wouldn't they discuss it? It isn't an exact science, it's more of a nuanced art with the opinions of graders determining which flaws merit more scrutiny.

 

Most geeks these days have rose colored magnifying glasses.

 

I eschew echelons, peasant company accepted.

 

 

The main issue is not so much generally but specifically buying comics from a dealer as VF/NM and them stating the actual grade is Fn after purchase. This is a large discrepancy in grade and value of these comics. I think anyone would be upset

in this type of scenario with any dealer that does/did this.

 

I realize they are one of the largest comic dealers in the world and this may be a isolated incident, but it would be very upsetting none the less.

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

 

Years ago, before CGC, I purchased some GA books from a Metro ad in the CBG. They seemed to be graded appropriately, all were in the VF+ to NM- range. When I decided to purge any GA books from my collection I brought the books to Metro at a show in Chicago, offering them for sale. As a buyer, they offered me Overstreet guide @ the FN price, stating none of the books were higher than FN/VF. I walked away and have never done business with them again. I think they have an elite clientele who they treat properly, hence the testimony from DavidMerryweather above. If you spend a lot of money with them, you will get treated properly. If you are just an occasional customer, well, no comment.

 

"Grading

 

Metropolis Collectibles created the 10 point grading scale used throughout the world of comic collecting. The owners are both Senior Overstreet Price Guide Advisors and our other graders are Overstreet Price Guide Advisors as well. Collectively, our team has over 100 years of comic book grading experience. Everyday we strive to give our comics the most accurate grades possible. We thank you for your patronage and hope you enjoy your purchases.

Metropolis guarantees that only books described as restored are restored. In the rare case you discover a book Metropolis sold you as unrestored is restored Metropolis will give you a 100% refund within the first 14 days. We consider books graded by CGC and placed into a blue, Universal holder to be unrestored. Customers are responsible for any expenses incurred in the discovery of restoration or shipping costs.

 

In the rare event that your item is currently out of stock, you will be notified promptly and receive a full refund."

 

You would think that since they "created" the ten point grading scale that it shouldn't change with the advent of CGC, you would also like to believe that there purchase grading and selling grading would correlate because of the 10 point system. Apparently not.

This either indicates - there grading is all over the board

- rose colored glasses when selling magnifying glass when purchasing

- That you are not in the upper echelon in the BSD club. So you are relegated to peasant status.

 

Why would anyone think that?

 

CGC doesn't discuss their proprietory grading methods. If our hosts used exactly the same scale as the OS/Metro guidelines, why wouldn't they discuss it? It isn't an exact science, it's more of a nuanced art with the opinions of graders determining which flaws merit more scrutiny.

 

Most geeks these days have rose colored magnifying glasses.

 

I eschew echelons, peasant company accepted.

 

 

The main issue is not so much generally but specifically buying comics from a dealer as VF/NM and them stating the actual grade is Fn after purchase. This is a large discrepancy in grade and value of these comics. I think anyone would be upset

in this type of scenario with any dealer that does/did this.

 

I realize they are one of the largest comic dealers in the world and this may be a isolated incident, but it would be very upsetting none the less.

 

 

You must've missed my earlier response to possible reasons for the grading discrepancies in bomber-bob's case. Current grading principles and elapsed time can play a role. For instance, if I bought a raw book graded VF/NM this week and decided to sell it back next year I'd expect the grading to be the same barring any change in condition of the book due to my own or anyone else's handling of it. But if I bought the book prior to the widespread acceptance of more nuanced grading standards that would have to be factored into the equation.

 

Just to refresh your memory, here was my response to bomber-bob's earlier post just prior to our discussion. As you can see, the discrepancy between grades failed to take into account the pre/post-CGC context...

 

 

 

Two of the books in my signature line were purchased raw from Metro. They're the first issue of Plastic Man (Vital, NN) and Silver Streak #7 (Lev Gleason). Both were graded 9.0 based on recollection, the Plastic Man book was unrestored, the Silver Streak has moderate professional restoration (disclosed), but it's a very tough book, I wanted it and Metro offered the book at a reasonable price. I examined the Plastic Man prior to purchase at NYCC so I had no misconceptions about the book. There were no obvious flaws, but in both cases these raw books graded even higher.

 

In this case, Metro did a great job of meeting and beating the customer's expectations, wouldn't you agree?

 

So the general question is this: would folks rather base their judgment of Metro's service on anecdotal evidence (including mine) or go the extra mile, check out their inventory and ask the right questions before purchasing when scans don't provide enough answers?

 

 

Years ago, before CGC, I purchased some GA books from a Metro ad in the CBG. They seemed to be graded appropriately, all were in the VF+ to NM- range. When I decided to purge any GA books from my collection I brought the books to Metro at a show in Chicago, offering them for sale. As a buyer, they offered me Overstreet guide @ the FN price, stating none of the books were higher than FN/VF. I walked away and have never done business with them again. I think they have an elite clientele who they treat properly, hence the testimony from DavidMerryweather above. If you spend a lot of money with them, you will get treated properly. If you are just an occasional customer, well, no comment.

 

It's difficult defending any dealer's business practices without knowing all of the particulars. I'm indeed sorry to learn of your disappointing experience, but allow me to offer one possible scenario that might've been in play here.

 

When you bought the books "before CGC" the only grading system in wide acceptance was provided by Overstreet. In fact, Overstreet grading was the gold standard until CGC came along. After CGC established their own proprietory ten point system it was a game changer and at odds with Overstreet in ways that raw book dealers couldn't ignore. It also meant that dealers buying and selling raw books had to reevaluate their own inventories taking into account the tighter grading standards that CGC used. Any dealer that didn't risked accusations of grossly over grading if their customers chose to have their raw books regraded by CGC.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that due to changes in how books were graded pre- and post-CGC it might've influenced Metro's regrading and the offers made. You didn't say when you tried to sell the books back to Metro, but if it was after CGC was in operation it seems logical that this could have influenced how raw books were purchased and graded for resale. Of course, I realize that this possibility doesn't make the outcome seem any fairer.

 

My

 

[lou_fine]

A few years back I bought a raw Tec #27 from Metro.

 

They graded it a 7.0 SA

 

I thought it was a 6.5 SA

 

CGC graded it a 7.5 SA

 

 

Sounds like they treat their friends from England pretty good. Grading on restored books is a slippery slope, even for CGC. If a color breaking crease is touched up, do you grade the book like the flaw is there or not there ? Does a sealed spine split have a split spine for grading purposes or not. Etc.....

 

Is this really how CGC grades restored books as it does not make much sense to me?

 

So, you are saying that when it comes to restored books, CGC is not supposed to be grading the book that is in front of them. Instead, they are supposed to identify the restoration, guess at the extent of the defect that the restoration is "fixing", and then grade it as if the defect was still there even though it's not there anymore.

 

Then again, this could explain why we see so many nice looking PLOD's relative to their CGC grades, and yet at the same time, see so many fugly looking unrestored books relative to their CGC grades.