The State of the Hobby (Stirring the Pot)?

[Lucky Baru]

The future of this hobby has never looked better (looking in the rearview mirror)! I'm sure all these young bucks posting here....when they shift their focus from buying what they like and can afford to adopting the exact same tastes as we have in the future (lololol).

 

Not sure if I'm a young buck (what's the age cut off?) but I collect Bronze and modern art. I'll never own what you older guys consider as the "masters" of comic art. Why would I want to own something that looks boring to me, and drawn very simple? Is it because I want to own a Bob Kane or some other famous OLD guy's work, or is it because someone thinks I should? I have no interest in it and it holds ZERO happy memories for me. I wasn't alive when the comic's in question where printed. Zip, zero, nada nostalgia hold for me.

 

Also, referring to some of the comic masters, as “Masters” is an insult to painters that the title truly belongs. Rembrandt, de Vinci, Raphael, and/or Michelangelo being compared to Bob Kane is ludicrous. While Bob Kane certainly helped shape comics and the comic art form his skills are not in the same ballpark as the true masters. Viewing a true "Master’s” painting in person allows the viewer to see why they are considered masters. Heck, I almost cried when I viewed “The Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus” by Salvador Dali and he’s considered a modern master. There are true differences in the true "Master's" works and skills and artist within the comic realm. Viewing Bob Kane's work for someone my age isn't a moving experience. The work comes off as boring and simple.

 

Give me the guys who changed comics. The guys who shook-up the world of comics. The guys like Miller, Zeck, Perez, and modern guys like Lee, McFarlane, Kieth, Sale, Platt...etc. Those guys works hold memories for me. The NOSTALGIA is there. That's what drives my collection and what I want to add. Heck, I just added a page of Mitch Gerads' Punisher work to my collection. I really like what the writing on the book and what Mitch's work did to revive a character that had grown stale.

 

Lastly, on the comic art fans pages in collections - maybe a tenth of my collection is up there. In today's modern world I don't have the time to scan and upload all of my collection. Maybe that is why new pages don't go up there as much as some would like. Also, if you take a class on security posting all of your collection on the net makes you a nice target.

[Peter G]

The future of this hobby has never looked better (looking in the rearview mirror)! I'm sure all these young bucks posting here....when they shift their focus from buying what they like and can afford to adopting the exact same tastes as we have in the future (lololol).

 

Not sure if I'm a young buck (what's the age cut off?) but I collect Bronze and modern art. I'll never own what you older guys consider as the "masters" of comic art. Why would I want to own something that looks boring to me, and drawn very simple? Is it because I want to own a Bob Kane or some other famous OLD guy's work, or is it because someone thinks I should? I have no interest in it and it holds ZERO happy memories for me. I wasn't alive when the comic's in question where printed. Zip, zero, nada nostalgia hold for me.

 

Also, referring to some of the comic masters, as “Masters” is an insult to painters that the title truly belongs. Rembrandt, de Vinci, Raphael, and/or Michelangelo being compared to Bob Kane is ludicrous. While Bob Kane certainly helped shape comics and the comic art form his skills are not in the same ballpark as the true masters. Viewing a true "Master’s” painting in person allows the viewer to see why they are considered masters. Heck, I almost cried when I viewed “The Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus” by Salvador Dali and he’s considered a modern master. There are true differences in the true "Master's" works and skills and artist within the comic realm. Viewing Bob Kane's work for someone my age isn't a moving experience. The work comes off as boring and simple.

 

Give me the guys who changed comics. The guys who shook-up the world of comics. The guys like Miller, Zeck, Perez, and modern guys like Lee, McFarlane, Kieth, Sale, Platt...etc. Those guys works hold memories for me. The NOSTALGIA is there. That's what drives my collection and what I want to add. Heck, I just added a page of Mitch Gerads' Punisher work to my collection. I really like what the writing on the book and what Mitch's work did to revive a character that had grown stale.

 

Lastly, on the comic art fans pages in collections - maybe a tenth of my collection is up there. In today's modern world I don't have the time to scan and upload all of my collection. Maybe that is why new pages don't go up there as much as some would like. Also, if you take a class on security posting all of your collection on the net makes you a nice target.

 

"The Lucky Baru doth protest too much, methinks."

 

Kirby is King !

 

Long Live The King !

[delekkerste]

Point of correction: most of the liquidity never made it into the economy. It sat on bank balance sheets at the Fed.

 

That's partly true, but doesn't tell the whole story. First, M1 money stock increased by more than M1 velocity has fallen, so M*V did increase on balance - just not nearly as much as inflationistas thought it would. Second, much more of that liquidity did make its way into the financial/investment markets as opposed to the real economy, so I think the general point Ronan made holds true. Third, whether by hook or by crook and regardless of the mechanism, many asset values are at/near all-time highs, and that is largely due to ZIRP/QE pulling future returns forward by artificially suppressing interest rates, which has reduced the appeal of holding cash and which also created a virtuous circle of increasing paper wealth which also reinforced both confidence and the financial wherewithal to keep buying more and pushing prices ever-higher (in layman's terms, a bubble).

[delekkerste]

Are most veteran collectors content with what they've accumulated (reluctant to both sell and buy) at today's prices?

 

Getting back on topic, I can't speak to other people's motivations, but I'd say the above description definitely holds true for me. I'm extremely happy with the collection I've assembled - I never could have imagined when I started collecting almost 13 years ago that I would end up with anywhere near the collection I now own. I have to say, I do feel very fortunate.

 

Is there still art out there I would very much like to own? Yes, of course. But, much of the stuff I would want most to own is now priced at levels that I am no longer interested in paying. And, a lot of other stuff I've decided I can simply do without at this point. The pieces that I would still really want, and be willing to pay up for, is a very short list indeed at this point. The reality is, I'm 13 years older than when I started collecting, and my life priorities are changing just as much as the OA market is. I know a number of other collectors around my age who either are or have gone through a similar evolution. For now, I presume there are enough other Gen X die-hards who will carry this hobby forward for at least another 10-15 years, but, who knows.

[theflashunc]

I'll chime in here with my perspective, which you're getting what you pay for in this instance.

 

I'm at the younger end of the spectrum here -- in my mid 30s -- and began jumping into the OA waters about six years ago. My collection interests are mainly, as others have noted, driven partly by nostalgia, partly by interest and acknowledgement of those pieces that are significant in the hobby. I own Paul Ryan FF art because that's what I grew up with and enjoyed as a kid. But I also have a deep and unhealthy love for the Stan n' Jack stuff too. Just so happens the former is in price range, the latter isn't.

 

As someone who's still relatively new to the hobby, I learned fairly quickly that given the price times we're in (crazy, and I think that's being mild), many of the pieces from the Bronze/Silver era that I'd be interested in are simply out of my price range. Heck, even some stuff I enjoyed from my formative years reading comics in the late 80s/early 90s is now out of my price range. So my strategy became, rather early on, a focus on modern OA in series that I'm enjoying and hitting that nostalgic sweet spot where it makes sense. I've got some pages I love, maybe from some artists that won't stand the test of time like Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko and any other dozen titans you can think of, and had some really great conversations with artists either getting that work signed when I bring it to a con, or buying it at the show.

 

Maybe one day my finances will change and it'll put some of that Silver/Bronze Age material more within my reach (some changes in the market wouldn't hurt), but I'm content to play in the shallow end of the pool. You can still splash around and have a ton of fun here.

 

 

[Phill the Governor]

For now, I presume there are enough other Gen X die-hards who will carry this hobby forward for at least another 10-15 years, but, who knows.

 

There's that optimism!

 

 

Maybe one day my finances will change and it'll put some of that Silver/Bronze Age material more within my reach (some changes in the market wouldn't hurt), but I'm content to play in the shallow end of the pool. You can still splash around and have a ton of fun here.

 

 

+1

[delekkerste]

For now, I presume there are enough other Gen X die-hards who will carry this hobby forward for at least another 10-15 years, but, who knows.

 

There's that optimism!

 

I didn't really mean it. I'm just saying that so people will buy what I bring to the Comic Art Con next month.

 

Did I just say that out loud?

[J.Sid]

I also think that fewer guys post their new acquisitions to CAF than years ago in an effort to preserve "freshness" which again seems like a symptom of a more mature market and collector base (and of course rising prices).

 

 

We all love ComicArtFans, but before that was a site called.... Comicart-L was it?

 

We all had galleries, but you could only post 10 items in your gallery at a time. It was cool in its own way because there was always something fresh, and the stuff you looked at one day wasn't guaranteed to be there the next.

 

[J.Sid]

 

The problem with the bolded parts of your statement is you have to sell in order to realize those gains. 18+ years into collecting I still am having a problem when I consider "thinning the herd"

 

Very true. But, if I may be a little here... With 54+ Preacher pages at todays market. If you really wanted a nice example (not AAA though), you could, and you'd still have plenty to spare.

 

 

(emphasis on the "+")

[vodou]

Point of correction: most of the liquidity never made it into the economy. It sat on bank balance sheets at the Fed.

 

That's partly true, but doesn't tell the whole story. First, M1 money stock increased by more than M1 velocity has fallen, so M*V did increase on balance - just not nearly as much as inflationistas thought it would. Second, much more of that liquidity did make its way into the financial/investment markets as opposed to the real economy, so I think the general point Ronan made holds true. Third, whether by hook or by crook and regardless of the mechanism, many asset values are at/near all-time highs, and that is largely due to ZIRP/QE pulling future returns forward by artificially suppressing interest rates, which has reduced the appeal of holding cash and which also created a virtuous circle of increasing paper wealth which also reinforced both confidence and the financial wherewithal to keep buying more and pushing prices ever-higher (in layman's terms, a bubble).

Agree with you on all, didn't want to get bogged down in OT : but one thing you didn't mention: foreign capital. When the dollar was weak US art priced in dollars was very attractive. Not so much now, as those currencies fall and continue to fall.

 

My point was direct liquidity didn't make it out broadly and spin around the economy. "Purchasing power" (which I do not think is the same) did in the form of ZIRP/NIRP and healthy credit lines for exceptional borrowers.

[Lucky Baru]

When you read threads like this one you find comments within them that can be generally summed up as:

 

"Glad I purchased my Kirby/Kane/whomever 10+ years ago. I couldn't or wouldn't buy it at today's prices."

 

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices? It doesn't seem that the younger collectors that have posted in here are interested in them for whatever reason. Who is buying them and driving the market?

[vodou]

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices?

It was Gene

[delekkerste]

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices?

It was Gene

 

[vodou]

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices?

It was Gene

 

Nice!

 

And when RonS steps off...

[alxjhnsn]

Great chart. Thanks for that, Gene.

[Weird Paper]

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices?

It was Gene

 

I was laughing at the graph. (It didn't show up in the quote)

[JadeGiant]

When you read threads like this one you find comments within them that can be generally summed up as:

 

"Glad I purchased my Kirby/Kane/whomever 10+ years ago. I couldn't or wouldn't buy it at today's prices."

 

So, who is buying those pages/covers at today's prices? It doesn't seem that the younger collectors that have posted in here are interested in them for whatever reason. Who is buying them and driving the market?

 

Good post – not a lot of newbs in the hobby starting up with Kirby purchases and many that have Kirby bought them when things were very different (using Kirby as an example but it applies to any top level art). I certainly fall into the category of wishing I had bought stuff before the explosion in prices being realized. Of course, it could just be that there are not a lot of people on this forum and there is only a certain number of regulars here.

 

My nostalgia is strongest in the 70s/80s and that is what I value most. I collect Hulk artwork and would love anything Kirby (I think I missed my chance on an Eternals page a few years ago and my ship may have sailed), or a page from TTA, etc. This was before I read comics but well within my collecting days of pulling back issues, trading, etc. The problem is, as with many, is that cost and availability make these tough gets for me. This is partially why I also play in the modern market as there is still really good art being produced and you can get covers and splashes at reasonable prices when there isn’t stuff available in within your nostalgic preferences.

 

[BookofStrange]

This quote says it all for me "Well I guess I'm never selling these then. Don't wanna have to go hunting for it again."

 

It took years to get what I have and I have little financial need to thin stuff out.

 

-The market is too high for the prime examples I still think I need but also I am not seeing those things. If I do see something worth going over the top for (and still in my reach) I will buy first and fix the damage by selling stuff later.

 

-Buy what you like but buy a great piece of art as if it was the last one you will buy for a long time.. I like what I own and am happy when I see it. The only lesson I can pass on is I bought my "best" stuff early in my collecting (starting in 1992), Usually 1 page a year at SDCC. I agonized over what did I liked/needed enough to spend all my money on. When I started out I bought the best I could afford (that I liked) knowing I would have no more resources for the next year. Ebay, dealer websites, other auctions, etc just gave me choices whether I blow my yearly money early and miss something at SDCC.

 

-Choose goals. I remember being laughed at when I went around SDCC and asked each dealer if they had any Ditko Doctor Strange pages. I did not understand that that was not how they were usually sold. But I set that as a goal and when the "golden ring" appeared I had set aside the money that I could buy what I want and fixed the "damage" later.

[Dick O.]

Just seems like a bit of a stagnant, odd time at least in my 10 years of collecting.

 

Any thoughts? Theories?

 

Either way i'd hate to be starting out right now.

 

Agreed.

 

I collect Copper and Modern OA, with a soft spot for Marvel Cosmic. More such pages are appearing on the auction and dealer sites but increasingly few of any quality; ebay has totally dried up. I haven't bought any OA in 2015 due to a lack of quality material and high prices on the few pieces I'm interested in.

[Lago32]

Ken - as we discussed buddy, I think a lot of what you are talking about comes back to this being yet another stage within the life-cycle of an OA collector. In a nutshell, your comment about collectors maturing and slowing down is probably pretty accurate.

 

In the 2001-2006 time period there were a lot of guys that entered into the hobby (you and I being two of them) that came in all guns-a-blazin' spending quite a bit of disposable income in order to quickly build a collection, all-the-while driving prices upwards drastically in order to Keep Up With The Joneses. It was a perfect storm of the Gen X'ers that have HUGE nostalgia for this stuff entering into their prime earning years just as the internet opened a whole new and exciting world of OA collecting to them. Take-downs were big, impressive and quite often pretty public. Fast-forward 10+ years and after years of molding and pruning and trimming these guys have probably built a collection they are proud of/content with and are now falling back a little bit. They are becoming much more focused on what they take down and are probably somewhat fatigued with the stress and grind of years of constantly hunting and dealing. I also speculate that many of these guys also are preferring more and more to work these deals off the grid and in some cases removing most if not all of their profile from CAF. There seems to be less interest in chest-beating as there was a few years back. My guess is big take-downs are definitely still happening but they are less frequent and far less public.

 

On the supply side - again, I echo others comments - the dealer sites and auction houses have experienced a real dearth of consistent A/A+ level material coming to market over the past year or two. It seems strange as you would think that the steep escalation in prices would pull out pieces but alas that hasn't been the case. My theory is that the inverse is actually happening in that these guys sitting on lots of black-hole art are thinking why sell now when in 10 years it will be worth even more? Possibly the first sign of a trend of falling prices will encourage these guys to sell, who knows?

 

In terms of the future, I agree with some other guys that we will probably have another 10-15 years of fairly solid growth across the hobby with the usual steeper growth for the usual suspects (Kirby, Ditko, etc.). After that, my guess is that the most popular artists most popular work will continue to escalate (more slowly albeit) while the less popular/more niche artists/work will start to take a real hit.

 

I'm probably just reiterating what has already been said in this and other threads but thought I would chime in with my .

 

Mike