Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run

[RockMyAmadeus]

No, not at that point. ASM's average for the 80's and early 90's was a net press run of about 450,000 copies per issue. New Mutants for the time (1987-1990) was about 300,000, with around 190-210k sold.

 

That was about 1.5x New Mutants, prior to Liefeld, not 5x. Big difference.

-------

 

I still have liefield bragging in some article in my head that before he came on new mutants was dipping below 100K and about to become a direct only book, but that would be sales anyway, not print-run, and he was probably full of it anyway.

 

Rob didn't know what he was talking about. The average sales for the book just before his tenure was 210k copies sold.

 

That would cover issues #71 to #84.

 

The average sales for the book during his tenure was 182k.

 

That would cover issues #85-96.

 

That means, if sales were "below 100k" (which isn't possible, as we shall see), then sales for subsequent issues would have to have been at 275k....unheard of for 1990 New Mutants....for other issues to make up the average of 182k.

 

Cap City numbers aren't substantially different from #62-#91....from 30-40k each issue.

[the blob]

 

"No. ASM #300 was a $30 book at this time."

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8949521#Post8949521

 

According to this ad, which you once posted to argue that NM 87 was a $7 book in early 1991, ASM 300 was a $40 book in early 1991, unless I am misreading it (it is a little blurry). Was 300 going down over the course of 1991 and into 1992? I don't think so. Rapidly trending up more likely.

 

I do remember it being at like $100 on some comic shop wall in 1993 and thinking, "WTF???"

[valiantman]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

I love this picture.

 

While hitting up the newsstands for THIS many copies was not normal, it exemplifies what happened with this book.

 

The newsstand returns for this book, while completely unknown, by ANYONE here, an assumption, educated guess, logical conclusion, whatever you want to call it must be made that the returns on ASM 361 was drastically lower than any book prior to it.

 

 

If a book was so popular that it sells out right off, goes up in price at the local comic shops and commands a near immediate second printing, wouldn't it be logical to assume that most collectors would have checked their local bookstores / corner stores for a copy if they couldn't get one? Wouldn't it be logical that some store owners, who were getting $3-10 a copy within a week or two of release, would check some stores as well?

 

It is logical, and it happened all across the U.S. It's not anecdotal, its just too obvious to ignore.

 

Not many newsstand copies of this book got pulped. It adds an element that isn't normally considered, though it has been brought up before.

 

yes, but this is a comment on how many book are in circulation (relative to other comparable books), not a comment on how many books were ACUTALLY PRINTED (relative to comparable books)

 

Way back at the beginning of this topic, the estimate was around 540,000 printed and about 450,000 sell-through.

 

Even assuming that every single copy printed was sold for #361, what's the difference (in practical terms today) between a book with 540,000 copies and a book with 450,000 copies?

 

Yes, it's 20% higher, but "about a half-million" is correct either way.

 

So the answer is "about a half-million" and the original purpose of this topic (Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run) is now complete. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

"No. ASM #300 was a $30 book at this time."

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8949521#Post8949521

 

According to this ad, which you once posted to argue that NM 87 was a $7 book in early 1991, ASM 300 was a $40 book in early 1991, unless I am misreading it (it is a little blurry). Was 300 going down over the course of 1991 and into 1992? I don't think so. Rapidly trending up more likely.

 

I do remember it being at like $100 on some comic shop wall in 1993 and thinking, "WTF???"

 

Ok, but we're splitting a few hairs, here. ASM #300 WAS $40 in the East Coast Comics ad, but they were always on the high side. Look at #302-305...do you really think they were selling for $25 each?

 

$30 was the "on the street" price. You could find it for that price with relative ease.

 

The difference between $30 on the street, and $40 in a purchase, nationwide retail ad isn't that much...and certainly not $100.

[revat]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

I love this picture.

 

While hitting up the newsstands for THIS many copies was not normal, it exemplifies what happened with this book.

 

The newsstand returns for this book, while completely unknown, by ANYONE here, an assumption, educated guess, logical conclusion, whatever you want to call it must be made that the returns on ASM 361 was drastically lower than any book prior to it.

 

 

If a book was so popular that it sells out right off, goes up in price at the local comic shops and commands a near immediate second printing, wouldn't it be logical to assume that most collectors would have checked their local bookstores / corner stores for a copy if they couldn't get one? Wouldn't it be logical that some store owners, who were getting $3-10 a copy within a week or two of release, would check some stores as well?

 

It is logical, and it happened all across the U.S. It's not anecdotal, its just too obvious to ignore.

 

Not many newsstand copies of this book got pulped. It adds an element that isn't normally considered, though it has been brought up before.

 

yes, but this is a comment on how many book are in circulation (relative to other comparable books), not a comment on how many books were ACUTALLY PRINTED (relative to comparable books)

 

Way back at the beginning of this topic, the estimate was around 540,000 printed and about 450,000 sell-through.

 

Even assuming that every single copy printed was sold for #361, what's the difference (in practical terms today) between a book with 540,000 copies and a book with 450,000 copies?

 

Yes, it's 20% higher, but "about a half-million" is correct either way.

 

So the answer is "about a half-million" and the original purpose of this topic (Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run) is now complete. (thumbs u

 

I agree, obviously we'll never know the real answer, but it seems fairly safe to say somewhere between 400K-600K.

[the blob]

well, i didn't say it was $100 when 361 came out either, that it was "on its way" to that. but are you so sure there was no movement in the year or so after that ad came out?

 

I will agree with you on this though:

 

"By the fall of 1993, though, the vast, vast majority of Harbinger #1s had been disseminated far and wide...because $100+ for a $1.95 comic book was far, far too much to resist for anyone who bought multiple copies to "speculate" on. Those with multiple copies would have sold them, and those paying $100+ (and they were the losers in that scenario, generally) weren't going to be buying multiples (that is, "hoarding"), at those prices."

 

Even a slacker like me would have tried to turn $2 into $100 at that point, even if it meant dragging my Harbinger 1 around local shows.

[the blob]

Yes, it's 20% higher, but "about a half-million" is correct either way.

 

So the answer is "about a half-million" and the original purpose of this topic (Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run) is now complete.

 

------

 

apparently mr. highgrade has them all sitting in his closet waiting for the carnage movie

 

 

and i don't want to debate RMA on this any more. he is right, the book did not sell hugely more than 360. as for hoarding in general at that time, it is probably true that most of those 5 - 25 copy guys still don't have their mini-hoards intact now, 23+ years later, even if they did not sell at the peak as there have been a lot of down years where some of these folks may have unloaded them for pennies and the book has been doing alright now for a few years, so maybe they sold in 2013, who knows? i think we can agree to disagree on just how easy it was for every collector to unload copies of their hot new books at premium pricing. even on a good day a lot of dealers would still offer $5 for a $25 book. it is a bizarro universe i am not familiar with where dealers would pay close to FMV for a hot book, so whether something was a "$25 book" may not be terribly relevant. $5-$10 may not have been sufficient motivation for some people to get off their butts and figure out how to sell them. it would not have been for me.

[Lazyboy]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

But, why would anyone speculate on it or hoard it to this day?

 

I thought it was a no brainer when I saw the cover.

 

I would have assumed you thought it was a no-brainer because you knew the book had been hot for weeks when the copies you bought hit the stands.

 

The first thing that popped inside my head was Spidey #300.

I also pre-ordered at 40% of cover the following books.

 

100 copies of X-men #281

150 copies of X-men #282

100 copies of X-men #283

50 copies of Silver Surfer #50 2nd Print

20 copies of Infinity Gauntlet #1

100 copies of Spidey #362

100 copies of Spidey #363

 

There's probably a few more books that I don't recalled.

 

How many copies of those issues do you have left?

 

When did you get rid of the (~1/3) of your 361 stash and why didn't you get rid of more copies?

[Hamlet]

Yes, it's 20% higher, but "about a half-million" is correct either way.

 

So the answer is "about a half-million" and the original purpose of this topic (Amazing Spider-Man 361 Print Run) is now complete.

 

------

 

apparently mr. highgrade has them all sitting in his closet waiting for the carnage movie

 

 

and i don't want to debate RMA on this any more. he is right, the book did not sell hugely more than 360. as for hoarding in general at that time, it is probably true that most of those 5 - 25 copy guys still don't have their mini-hoards intact now, 23+ years later, even if they did not sell at the peak as there have been a lot of down years where some of these folks may have unloaded them for pennies and the book has been doing alright now for a few years, so maybe they sold in 2013, who knows? i think we can agree to disagree on just how easy it was for every collector to unload copies of their hot new books at premium pricing. even on a good day a lot of dealers would still offer $5 for a $25 book. it is a bizarro universe i am not familiar with where dealers would pay close to FMV for a hot book, so whether something was a "$25 book" may not be terribly relevant. $5-$10 may not have been sufficient motivation for some people to get off their butts and figure out how to sell them. it would not have been for me.

 

On a slightly different note,

 

I've been wondering how many people are currently accumulating hoards of hot books now?

 

We've had keys going straight up long enough that there are a lot of people thinking that that is going to continue forever, and they are now buying these books with the expectation that they will continue to increase.

 

For example, how many people have a couple of long boxes of this book today, thinking of it as a portion of their retirement fund? I suspect the number would be surprising.

[RockMyAmadeus]

When this issue came out it quickly sold out. I was only able to grab one copy from my comic shop.

Three weeks later I went to every newsstand that I could find and snapped up around 125 copies.

This is what I have left today.

 

 

 

I love this picture.

 

While hitting up the newsstands for THIS many copies was not normal, it exemplifies what happened with this book.

 

The newsstand returns for this book, while completely unknown, by ANYONE here, an assumption, educated guess, logical conclusion, whatever you want to call it must be made that the returns on ASM 361 was drastically lower than any book prior to it.

 

 

If a book was so popular that it sells out right off, goes up in price at the local comic shops and commands a near immediate second printing, wouldn't it be logical to assume that most collectors would have checked their local bookstores / corner stores for a copy if they couldn't get one? Wouldn't it be logical that some store owners, who were getting $3-10 a copy within a week or two of release, would check some stores as well?

 

It is logical, and it happened all across the U.S. It's not anecdotal, its just too obvious to ignore.

 

Not many newsstand copies of this book got pulped. It adds an element that isn't normally considered, though it has been brought up before.

 

yes, but this is a comment on how many book are in circulation (relative to other comparable books), not a comment on how many books were ACUTALLY PRINTED (relative to comparable books)

 

And to add to that, the idea that people haunted newsstands to scoop up copies of hot books...Superman #50, Robin #1, Batman #457, Batman #426-429, even going back to Thor #337...has been exhaustively discussed on these boards, and elsewhere, for well over a decade.

 

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that this happened. It's been discussed many, many times.

 

That doesn't mean that there were NO returns, but it does mean there were likely much fewer returns than normal. Of course, no one but Marvel circulation knows that answer, if they, in fact, still know that answer. It's a reasonable assumption, but it's only an assumption.

 

There's also a consideration that hasn't been discussed: newsstands typically ordered the same amount of copies per title as they always did, based on typical sales history. Some newsstands ordered to sell out, not wanting to deal with returns, while others typically ordered overflow to be returned. That was the nature of the newsstands going back to the 30's (and before.)

 

So, it's certainly possible that those who scooped up newsstands copies did so at the cost of "regular customers" getting a copy, which would result in a zero sum difference. After all, if someone was buying their new comics off the spinner rack at 7-11, who were they going to complain to if they missed an issue? There was no mechanism in place to "reorder" newsstand books, and those customers would have simply dealt with missing that issue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

it is a bizarro universe i am not familiar with where dealers would pay close to FMV for a hot book, so whether something was a "$25 book" may not be terribly relevant. $5-$10 may not have been sufficient motivation for some people to get off their butts and figure out how to sell them. it would not have been for me.

 

Nobody said dealers were offering close to FMV for a hot book.

 

But as I said...buying 10 copies for $1.25 (minus any discount) and getting $10-$12 in trade credit for them 2-3 months later, was a pretty good deal.

 

The stores were paying pennies...after all, they certainly did not PAY $10-$12 for the stuff they're giving you $10-$12 trade credit for.

 

But the scenario looks like this:

 

I buy 10 copies for $1.13 each.

 

2 months goes by.

 

The book is a $25 retail book.

 

I go into my local store.

 

I see an X-Men #94 in VF-ish condition for $100.

 

I trade my 10 copies for that X-Men #94..

 

I have now paid a net of $11.30 for that $100 X-Men #94.

 

I'm thrilled.

 

The store bought that X-Men #94 for $30-$40, if that.

 

They will sell those 10 copies of ASM #361 for $25 each.

 

So, for a $30-$40 investment, they will make $250 in retail sales.

 

Everyone wins....except the dummies who buy at the top of the market.

 

[porcupine48]

it is a bizarro universe i am not familiar with where dealers would pay close to FMV for a hot book, so whether something was a "$25 book" may not be terribly relevant. $5-$10 may not have been sufficient motivation for some people to get off their butts and figure out how to sell them. it would not have been for me.

 

Nobody said dealers were offering close to FMV for a hot book.

 

But as I said...buying 10 copies for $1.25 (minus any discount) and getting $10-$12 in trade credit for them 2-3 months later, was a pretty good deal.

 

The stores were paying pennies...after all, they certainly did not PAY $10-$12 for the stuff they're giving you $10-$12 trade credit for.

 

But the scenario looks like this:

 

I buy 10 copies for $1.13 each.

 

2 months goes by.

 

The book is a $25 retail book.

 

I go into my local store.

 

I see an X-Men #94 in VF-ish condition for $100.

 

I trade my 10 copies for that X-Men #94..

 

I have now paid a net of $11.30 for that $100 X-Men #94.

 

I'm thrilled.

 

The store bought that X-Men #94 for $30-$40, if that.

 

They will sell those 10 copies of ASM #361 for $25 each.

 

So, for a $30-$40 investment, they will make $250 in retail sales.

 

Everyone wins....except the dummies who buy at the top of the market.

 

Exactly how I built up my SA/BA collection...in those years,doing just that....sigh...GR#15,SS #50 ,PWJ 6/7....ah,salad days! (And sat on a pile of what until the last few years I thought had turnrd to garbage)

[the blob]

i don't know how much shops in my neck of the woods accepted these store credit situations and just how hot the book needed to be. my old shop basically had to know he had an easy sale in 24 hours to think about it, but as we have established, he was a crook. i did it with my gen 13 books, but that was years later. i did it with my mark mcgwire olympic cards, as well as montana, elway and jordan cards (converting silly cardboard into store credit for vintage comics!).

 

ok, assuming the modern speculator was in it to build a SA/BA collection via store credit, I'll buy it. I still know mini-hoards went unsold/untraded of these books, having watched firsthand at least 10 failed speculator collections being brought into my old shop and bought for pennies, each with 5-20 copies of once hot books from 1990-1993 that were not unloaded in time. so extrapolate that over thousands of shops. of course, that means those books got sold in dollar boxes or whatever. you guys were a lot savier in 1992/1993 than i was. i was buying and holding just like i had done in 1976-1986 when i started collecting.

[the blob]

The store bought that X-Men #94 for $30-$40, if that.

 

They will sell those 10 copies of ASM #361 for $25 each.

 

So, for a $30-$40 investment, they will make $250 in retail sales.

 

----------

 

Unless they got stuck holding them. My old shop had a long box of PWJ 7s he could never unload.

 

What did the Darkhawk/Punisher book ever go for? He was stuck with those.

 

And the X-O with the pinkish cover.

 

And WOlverine 50.

 

and thor 433

 

an, of course, the aforementioned x-men 1.

 

he should have learned from the long boxes of thor 339s he was still sitting on....

[RockMyAmadeus]

The store bought that X-Men #94 for $30-$40, if that.

 

They will sell those 10 copies of ASM #361 for $25 each.

 

So, for a $30-$40 investment, they will make $250 in retail sales.

 

----------

 

Unless they got stuck holding them. My old shop had a long box of PWJ 7s he could never unload.

 

What did the Darkhawk/Punisher book ever go for? He was stuck with those.

 

And the X-O with the pinkish cover.

 

And WOlverine 50.

 

and thor 433

 

an, of course, the aforementioned x-men 1.

 

he should have learned from the long boxes of thor 339s he was still sitting on....

 

Not a single one of those books was like ASM #361, especially X-Men #1.

 

#362, #363? Yes.

 

#361? No.

 

ASM #361 isn't comparable to any of those books, in any significant way, for all the reasons already stated, and more..

 

I'm not saying people didn't get "stuck with" ASM #361s.

 

But, like Spidey #252 and Thor #337, that book was never a "stuck with" book. It's never been a legitimate "dollar book." I have *never*, and I have combed through millions of comics since 1992, all over the country, seen ASM #361 is bargain boxes, ever, on any consistent basis. Onesies, twosies, maybe. Large stacks, like #362 and #363? No, never.

 

I wish I had. I bought them whenever I saw them for "cheap"...but I rarely paid less than $5 each for them.

 

ASM #361 was, and remains, a standout among comics of that time period.

[RockMyAmadeus]

ok, assuming the modern speculator was in it to build a SA/BA collection via store credit, I'll buy it. I still know mini-hoards went unsold/untraded of these books, having watched firsthand at least 10 failed speculator collections being brought into my old shop and bought for pennies, each with 5-20 copies of once hot books from 1990-1993 that were not unloaded in time. so extrapolate that over thousands of shops. of course, that means those books got sold in dollar boxes or whatever. you guys were a lot savier in 1992/1993 than i was. i was buying and holding just like i had done in 1976-1986 when i started collecting.

 

It's unprovable, but I would be willing to bet all my copies of ASM #361 that none of those "mini-hoards" had that book in any significant numbers (more than, say, 5 copies or so, if any.)

 

It's certainly not something you can extrapolate over thousands of comics shops. After all, there were never more than 3,000-4,000 comic shops across the nation at the height of the market. There's much fewer now.

 

As of Sept of 2013, Diamond reported that it had 2,638 accounts...but an account doesn't mean a store. There are probably fewer than 1,500 stores nationwide today.

 

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/comics/article/59513-diamond-reports-number-of-comics-shops-up-4-in-2013.html

[mysterio]

ok, assuming the modern speculator was in it to build a SA/BA collection via store credit, I'll buy it. I still know mini-hoards went unsold/untraded of these books, having watched firsthand at least 10 failed speculator collections being brought into my old shop and bought for pennies, each with 5-20 copies of once hot books from 1990-1993 that were not unloaded in time. so extrapolate that over thousands of shops. of course, that means those books got sold in dollar boxes or whatever. you guys were a lot savier in 1992/1993 than i was. i was buying and holding just like i had done in 1976-1986 when i started collecting.

 

It's unprovable, but I would be willing to bet all my copies of ASM #361 that none of those "mini-hoards" had that book in any significant numbers (more than, say, 5 copies or so, if any.)

 

It's certainly not something you can extrapolate over thousands of comics shops. After all, there were never more than 3,000-4,000 comic shops across the nation at the height of the market. There's much fewer now.

 

As of Sept of 2013, Diamond reported that it had 2,638 accounts...but an account doesn't mean a store. There are probably fewer than 1,500 stores nationwide today.

 

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/comics/article/59513-diamond-reports-number-of-comics-shops-up-4-in-2013.html

 

As purely anecdotal evidence to support this, my brother bought a collection out of Amarillo over the summer. It had exactly one copy of #361, about 10 copies of #362, and roughly 20-25 copies of #363.

[rjrjr]

When memories conflict with data, which has to go?

 

Sure. I got the cover prices of ASM 359+360 wrong. Didn't feel the need to note that because it's obvious. Duh.

 

Noting it is a matter of courtesy and acknowledgement, more than anything.

 

Why does it matter? Couple of reasons. The specific detail isn't important...what is important is that you made a key point about the print run (that it was "depressed" because of the higher new cost, which would be a fair point to make, if true) that was based on something that wasn't accurate, but those who didn't take the time to research it (i.e., most of the people reading this) might have easily accepted at face value, and carried that bad information forward.

 

Facts always matter. Anyone having a serious discussion about these things has to as accurate as possible, and certainly shouldn't be giving other people a hard time because they insist on accuracy, especially when such information is literally fact-checkable with a few Google clicks.

 

It's lazy, and tells anyone who is paying attention that the details of the conversation don't really matter, it's just arguing to argue.

 

But also it's because, when I have these types of discussions, I don't sit back and shoot from the hip, just spouting off my memories and impressions (not saying that anyone else is, either; if they are, that's for others to decide for themselves.) I physically went to find that issue of Previews, looking through several boxes, to confirm, not just for everyone else, but also for myself, the claim that Peter G made that "I distinctly remember that there was a lot of promotion on this particular issue."

 

There wasn't. Previews showed half the cover, in B&W (to be fair, it was ALL B&W in those days), and that was it. They didn't even have the name "Carnage" yet. No spotlight, no "gem of the month", no full page ad like Cage #1 and MCP #100, among others.

 

(I have several boxes of Previews for research purposes, for whatever level of dedication to comics research that demonstrates.)

 

So, Peter G's recollections don't look like they stand up to scrutiny, but for that, he says I provided "no evidence", with pages of it still right here all over this thread, and then made it personal. And, for the umpteen millionth time, I am told "you always think you're right" in this conversation...which is always true of everyone...when I went out and did the actual legwork and research, which no one else did, with the exception of Valiantman.

 

So, yes, if I have an expectation that the person who does the research to support his/her case should be the one whose conclusions carry the most weight, I don't think that's a very unreasonable expectation to have.

 

Am I tooting my own horn? Not at all. Doing the legwork and research to get at the truth of a matter is what drives me, because then everyone involved is enriched, and comes away from the discussion knowing more than when they started.

 

But, it does get a bit frustrating when people who aren't willing to do the research challenge those who do it, who don't read what others say (is anyone reading this right now...?), then respond according to how they see still others reacting to what is said, rather than seeing for themselves what is actually said, and then it takes some serious drawing out to just get someone to acknowledge they made a mistake that has direct bearing on the point they're making.

 

I admit I'm wrong, when I make a mistake. I say "oops. Sorry about that, my mistake, thanks for the correction" (most of the time...I'm still human), and then move on, which is why it never registers. But pride is a person_without_enough_empathy, and no one likes to be corrected, so there it goes. What the "you never admit you're wrong" crowd really means is "you don't agree with ME. How dare you."

 

Does any of this matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really. Is it going to change anyone, including me? Probably not. But, it's important to keep the record straight, if, for no other reason, so that people don't walk around carrying bad information, and making bad decisions based on that bad information, without having been given the chance to have correct information.

 

But that mistake doesn't invalidate my opinions on or experience of the time period (i.e., credibility, as one who's been in this game for 25+ years) any more than your one-time repeated insistence that Superman 75 was released on Nov. 20 -- even after presented with incontrovertible proof to the contrary -- damages your credibility on all things Death/Return of Superman.

 

I'm sorry, but that's not only not accurate, those couldn't possibly be more different circumstances that you're trying to compare.

 

1. It's not my "one-time" repeated insistence. I stand by it to this very day, because I know when comic books were released on the West Coast in November of 1992: on Friday. That book appeared on the shelves of comic book stores across California on Nov 20th, 1992. Whether it appeared on Wednesday, Nov 18th in New York doesn't alter that fact. Not only that, I personally delivered 400 of them to various stores that had ordered them, that day, Friday, across the SF East Bay area.

 

2. As others have reported, the "new comics day" varied across the country, with some reporting Wednesday, and others reporting Friday (which it was on the West Coast), so no, it's not "incontrovertible proof", and never has been.

 

The result of that conversation was that everyone came to the correct conclusion that books were released at that time on different days of the week, depending on region/location/distribution. Which means that, ANY day between Nov 17 (which was DC's official street date) and Nov 20 was accurate.

 

This needs to be said: there's a substantial and significant different between a genuine disagreement based on conflicting data (Nov 18th vs Nov 20th) and laziness about double checking the cover price to ASM #359 and #360.

 

They're simply not comparable, as a means of discussing credibility. One is easily fact-checked, the other was a disagreement based on conflicting information.

 

By the way....that didn't even take into account the newsstand distribution which was usually 2-3 weeks LATER.

 

So...if you're going to make an issue out of it, you ought to pick an issue where there was actual incontrovertible proof of error, rather than a situation that depended on mitigating circumstances.

 

It doesn't.

 

I didn't pre-order 361. But my teacher did, and gave me a week's heads-up. And independently, my LCS had vastly upped their orders, yet still instituted "1 per customer" the day of release.

 

I'll ask again, because I believe I asked before, and didn't get an answer: how did your teacher order, when, and why? And, what does "vastly upped" mean? Double? Triple? We know Cap City had orders of about 20% more on #361 than #360.

 

Without those details, the anecdotes don't help.

 

And I bought my (4) copies off the shelf week 1 as an INVESTMENT, but not to FLIP. These were the first ASM dupes I bought, having started buying (unfortunately) with # 326. The goal was to keep the books for 20+ years (which, incidentally, I did). Not everyone, apparently, had the same mindset as you.

 

Again: you're arguing the exception, as if it were the rule.

 

I don't doubt you, and I don't disbelieve you, nor am I referring to MY "mindset." My point, as I have stated multiple times, is that the majority of people who bought multiple copies of new books, then as now, did so to flip. Because ASM #361 took everyone by surprise...which it did...the demand was such that the book, unlike most books of that era, went up quite substantially in price in a very short time.

 

Are there people who bought them for long term investment? Of course! It would be foolish to think otherwise. But, the majority of people buying multiple copies of brand new books were going to tend to sell them, as the demand (and price) got higher, which would result in greater distribution than otherwise...which is why, as Hamlet said, people had 30 copies of Wolverine #50, but only 3 copies of ASM #361, when the smoke cleared.

 

I bought multiple copies of X-Force #1. 80 of them, to be exact. I bought them because I thought it would be a "good investment." I didn't know any better. That's part of the reason I'm so vociferous about these things NOW...because I had to learn hard lessons.

 

But, if X-Force #1 had, for some bizarre reason, actually been underordered (it was not, despite the second printing), and it had gone to $10-$15-$20 within a couple of months of release, I would have sold/traded at least a good chunk of them, as would everyone else who was doing the same thing.

 

Also, while the relative print run data is interesting, I don't buy the argument that "instant 2nd printing" equates to not heavily speculated upon.

 

That's not what I said. What I said was this: "Books that go into immediate reprintings didn't have enough copies printed in the first place to satisfy demand." and "Books that sell out quickly enough to have an immediate second printing aren't hoarded....they are distributed far and wide."

 

And, there IS a difference between a book that has a second printing because it has been heavily speculated (Spiderman #1) and one that simply sells out (like ASM #361.)

 

Again: you can't use "hoarded" and "speculated" interchangeably.

 

The former means that people gather them up and held them.

 

The latter simply means they thought they would be worth something higher than acquisition cost at some point.

 

And, according to the data we have, ASM #361 wasn't speculated in much greater numbers (say, more than a 20% bump) than other issues of the day.

 

#358 was speculated on in far higher numbers, for example, because of the gatefold cover (which turned out to be quite passé, but was rather novel at the time.) So, by the way, was #363.

 

Also...there is a difference between speculating on a book by placing an order for it (which affects the print run) and speculating on a book by buying it on the shelf (which doesn't affect the print run.)

 

ASM #361 wasn't speculated the first way much more than most other issues of ASM, and certainly wasn't speculated the second way, because, as you note, it was "1 per customer"...in other words, there wasn't really a CHANCE to speculate on this book after it was placed on sale; it was already a hit. Sure, there was certainly some degree of "on the shelf speculation" happening, but it wasn't really all THAT speculative, when everyone's grabbing a copy in front of you.

 

How is it not speculation if others are grabbing copies too? Does speculation have to occur in a vacuum? If so, then the modern guys are doing it all wrong...

 

Can a comic be speculated on the day of release? In other words, if ASM 361 wasn't ordered heavily because it wasn't promoted, but the initial customers who saw it on the stands knew it was something special and generated a buzz, thus causing other customers to buy multiples off the stand, can that be considered speculation?

 

I am wondering, because without this initial promotional push as you pointed out, how did I end up buying 5 copies for my collection? I did not collect ASM, yet there are 5 copies of this one book in my collection. I wasn't in the habit of picking up 1 copy of titles I didn't buy, let alone 5 copies.

 

Is there a magic number on the number of copies one has to buy for it to be considered speculation?

[valiantman]

The word "speculation" or "speculating" may be what's causing the confusion here, because I think we all agree that orders for Amazing Spider-Man #361 did not increase drastically.

 

A retailer is "speculating" when they (suddenly) order many extra copies of a book. They believe they will do better than they have in the past due to some factor specific to that book. Maybe one or more of their customers have requested extra copies, and it's actually those customers who are "speculating" on that book. When the whole print run significantly increases, then many people are "speculating" that they will do better on that book than the prior issue. ASM #361 is not one of those types of "speculating" books because the print run didn't increase drastically.

 

When a book becomes popular, even as early as the release day, it can certainly be hoarded, stockpiled, etc., and we can say that those buyers are "speculating" that they will do better than they have in the past due to some factor specific to that book. But those things that a buyer does, no matter how many copies he obtains, won't increase the print run like retailers who are "speculating". It's too late for that.

 

"Speculation" may be the correct word for both situations, but there's a very clear difference in the result.

 

"Speculation" that increases the print run drastically generally results in worthless books, because it is very hard to find examples of valuable books with print runs significantly higher than surrounding issues. The expectation of increased demand resulted in increased supply. Superman #75 might be the only example of a successful speculation that significantly increased supply.

 

"Speculation" that occurs after the print run is set generally results in valuable books, because that type of "speculation" resulted in an increased demand with no increase in supply.

 

If we're using the same "speculation" word for the "thing that significantly increases supply, even beyond what the market will ever need" and the "thing that significantly increases demand, far beyond what the supply can handle", then we need different words.

[mysterio]

There was speculation on the back end (i.e. after the point of sale) but there wasn't on the front end (i.e. in the ordering of this book relative to the adjacent issues).