JUSTICE LEAGUE: PART ONE (11/17/17) 5 5

[Gatsby77]

6 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Box office results are one thing. Someone going out of their way to detract from a film because they didn't like the director's last film has nothing to do with box office results. Or if someone is going to say this movie would have been so much better if Studio X had done A - B - C, yet they haven't even watched the movie they are critiquing. Seems like broken logic if you can't point to what you experienced as a weak spot.

Except that in the post in question, I literally just linked to the Forbes article and then summarized author Scott Mendelson's views in that article.

The *only* additional piece of information I added was the fact that Justice League was tracking to do less than Iron Man did in its opening weekend 9 years ago (which is a fact).

You and I may differ, but I think posting analysis of box office performance from Forbes is absolutely germane to discussion here -- and you yourself have posted his analysis on other comic book films when it's been positive.

Note, that I've so far refrained from publishing the analysis from Rob Cain at Forbes re. Justice League's under-performance in China this weekend.

 

Also I've also now seen the film.

I think Rotten Tomatoes was right on - that it's a solid 2 stars out of 5, as in bad but not terrible. Definitely better than Suicide Squad and Green Lantern, and I liked it a bit better than BvS. Think in my mind it's equivalent to Dr. Strange -- an okay time at the theater but not something I ever want to see again. And that's a shame.

Happy to go into detail later about the good, the bad, and what would have made it better.

 

The biggest missed opportunity of the film though is that we're sitting here as comic book geeks the Monday morning after a freakin' Justice League movie and -- rather than celebrating it -- we're discussing the damage it's done and which planned DC movies may never see the light of day due to how badly Warner Bros. mismanaged it.

That's sad.

[Bosco685]

8 minutes ago, CBT said:

imo Superman should have been used as the DC Nick Fury, not Batman.  Would make more sense, would have given more time between Bale and the DCEU Batman, and then HE(Batman) could have been the badass big reveal in JL.  He needs to be a young actor, about the same age as Gal Gadot, someone with oodles of acting chops and not yet Super Famous. DC/WB has tried to rush everything, and is doing disservice to their fans and characters.  No name actors should be used for main characters (ie Will Smith, etc)

Affleck needs to go ASAP.  I say use Flash/Flashpoint to Retcon all the weak/bad stuff out, and right the ship.  No reboots, have an aggressive alternate reality merging hard retcon, with emotional buy in for the fans.  Id' say just kill this Batman/Affleck, and bring in a young Bruce Wayne from an Alternate reality, and retcon "our" reality so Bruce Wayne is that age here too, and have Old Bruce/Batfleck make a noble sacrifice and gtfo. 

Wonder Woman is the only truly strong Film to date, and all future movies need to be strong self sufficient films like that. 

Although I may not agree 100%, this at least is someone offering a resolution with a lot of sense behind it.

As much as I like Affleck in the role, he sure hasn't helped himself with statements and reactions caught by interviewers. It opens the door to doubt and mistrust.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Bosco685

[CBT]

1 minute ago, Bosco685 said:

Although I may not agree 100%, this at least someone putting a resolution with a lot of sense behind it.

As much as I like Affleck in the role, he sure hasn't helped himself with statements and reactions caught by interviewers. It opens the door to doubt and mistrust.

Very good further point on Affleck, I didnt even touch on that part of the problem with him.

One of my roomates in late 90s was a rich guy from Montreal who's older sister and her friends (models I think),  partied a ton with Ben Affleck and his buddies.  This was in Montreal in the late 90s when he was working on films there, and even at that time there were lots and lots of stories, rumors, etc. , some of which the sister witnessed herself.

I am not going to post anything specific here, but believe me, his past is not good and filled with many skeletons.  DC needs to dump him ASAP

[Bosco685]

10 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

That's sad.

Actually, folks were focused on details from the movie this morning. Including discussions about certain characters and plot points.

It is you and a few others that keep taking us back to WB failed, what they should have done better, and if the DCEU will move forward as we know the plan to be today. So it is not just discussing the box office numbers as another discussion point. When you respond to people with 'uummm' like they are lacking comprehension, laughing at people or between you and paperheart clapping each other on the back - you really don't think that leads to respectful discussion, do you?

If you came on with the approach CBT just took - not liking what is there, but proposing things for discussion - that leads to discussion. Even Drotto and CC may not like it, but they don't try to overly-critique something. They are looking for a discussion and debate. But not to carp on a topic.

[Bosco685]

25 minutes ago, CBT said:

Very good further point on Affleck, I didnt even touch on that part of the problem with him.

One of my roomates in late 90s was a rich guy from Montreal who's older sister and her friends (models I think),  partied a ton with Ben Affleck and his buddies.  This was in Montreal in the late 90s when he was working on films there, and even at that time there were lots and lots of stories, rumors, etc. , some of which the sister witnessed herself.

I am not going to post anything specific here, but believe me, his past is not good and filled with many skeletons.  DC needs to dump him ASAP

When he made a joke last week about all the sexual harassment news going around Hollywood, the look he got from Henry Cavill, Gal Gadot, Jason Momoa, Ezra Miller and Ray Fisher was like he had dropped an egg in the room. And yet the topic being discussed was having more female characters on the Justice League team like Black Canary. So a good topic to hear about.

I really want someone that sounds so excited to be in a key role like this, they own it. They live it. And they are so appreciative of fans loyal to the character. Like the message Henry Cavill posted on Twitter during the opening. You can tell he sees this as one of the biggest things in his career.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Bosco685

[Jaydogrules]

15 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Actually, folks were focused on details from the movie this morning. Including discussions about certain characters and plot points.

It is you and a few others that keep taking us back to WB failed, what they should have done better, and if the DCEU will move forward as we know the plan to be today. So it is not just discussing the box office numbers as another discussion point. When you respond to people with 'uummm' like they are lacking comprehension, laughing at people or between you and paperheart clapping each other on the back - you really don't think that leads to respectful discussion, do you?

If you came on with the approach CBT just took - not liking what is there, but proposing things for discussion - that leads to discussion. Even Drotto and CC may not like it, but they don't try to overly-critique something. They are looking for a discussion and debate. But not to carp on a topic.

I appreciate you fighting the good fight Boscoe.  My personal position is that WB just spent way, way too much money on this movie, like a drunken sailor on leave at a strip club.  It was just too much and it didn't need to happen.  This conversation and the headlines this morning would be a lot different if WB spent a far more reasonable $180MM-$190MM on this, instead of the moronic $300MM that they did spend.  That's just incompetent movie making, and I'm not even talking about the content or the finished product on the screen.  A $279MM worldwide first weekend on a $180MM budget just "looks" better.  And even if people would have still said the movie "under performed" (which they no doubt would have), at least there wouldn't be so many industry wonks now questioning the entire superhero genre and movie theater stocks tanking.  There would at least be a counter talking point that the movie is already in the black.  To wit, the simplest solution for the WB (outside of simply making subjectively "better" movies) is to dial down the budgets, maybe plug into the FOX model of less is more.    Aquaman and its also very dumb budget of $160MM is already in the can.  Like another boardie said earlier in this thread, hopefully this experience with JL will finally force a little soul searching with what they are doing here.

-J.

[ComicConnoisseur]

53 minutes ago, CBT said:

imo Superman should have been used as the DC Nick Fury, not Batman.  Would make more sense, would have given more time between Bale and the DCEU Batman, and then HE(Batman) could have been the badass big reveal in JL.  He needs to be a young actor, about the same age as Gal Gadot, someone with oodles of acting chops and not yet Super Famous. DC/WB has tried to rush everything, and is doing disservice to their fans and characters.  Absolutely no big name actors should be used for main characters (ie Will Smith, Ben Affleck, etc)

Affleck needs to go ASAP.  I say use Flash/Flashpoint to Retcon all the weak/bad stuff out, and right the ship.  No reboots, have an aggressive alternate reality merging hard retcon, with emotional buy in for the fans.  Id' say just kill this Batman/Affleck, and bring in a young Bruce Wayne from an Alternate reality, and retcon "our" reality so Bruce Wayne is that age here too, and have Old Bruce/Batfleck make a noble sacrifice and gtfo. 

Wonder Woman is the only truly strong Film to date, and all future movies need to be strong self sufficient films like that. 

 

[Chip Cataldo]

R.I.P. Darwyn. ?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Chip Cataldo

[Bosco685]

Two topics from this morning's discussion which had nothing to do with WB's implosion or realignment.

8 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

I had read somewhere in an article when Joss Whedon started cutting scenes (and people assumed Lex was completely removed), there was a scene in the end with Darkseid that he pulled. He felt it was too soon revealing the mystery behind Steppenwolf.

Good point on the three mother boxes.

  Reveal hidden contents

When the boom tube appears at the end, taking Steppenwolf back to what I assume to be Apokolips, I lost sight of the mother boxes. As fast as the attack was happening before this, Superman and Cyborg had to join in the fight immediately after separating the Unity, it wasn't like they could quickly grab them and hold on while taking on all those parademons and Steppenwolf.

But it would have been nice to cleanly see them either locked away in the new Hall of Justice ( ), shown taken back in the boom tube with Steppenwolf so the doorway on our side is cut off now, or destroyed.

The designs were really cool.

I really would like to see WB/DC address the whereabouts of these now critical artifacts.

8 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Remember when early on people were questioning "Why have Cyborg in the Justice League'? I think Ray Fisher and the character's contributions in the movie really shined in the end.

As the character came out more and interacted with the rest of the team, he started demonstrating more of a human side. There are some articles noting he turned out to be the most important character to the storyline. I think that would take away from other characters, but realize what they mean.

I could see that Cyborg movie becoming a reality. Though I would rather see a World's Finest matchup, as he played well off of Wonder Woman and even Barry Allen. Seeing the latter going off on a younger teammates adventure would be nice.

I really do see him as one of the shining stars from these films. What a find as an actor.

[revat]

18 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

I appreciate you fighting the good fight Boscoe.  My personal position is that WB just spent way, way too much money on this movie, like a drunken sailor on leave at a strip club.  It was just too much and it didn't need to happen.  This conversation and the headlines this morning would be a lot different if WB spent a far more reasonable $180MM-$190MM on this, instead of the moronic $300MM that they did spend.  That's just incompetent movie making, and I'm not even talking about the content or the finished product on the screen.  A $279MM worldwide first weekend on a $180MM budget just "looks" better.  And even if people would have still said the movie "under performed" (which they no doubt would have), at least there wouldn't be so many industry wonks now questioning the entire superhero genre and movie theater stocks tanking.  There would at least be a counter talking point that the movie is already in the black.  To wit, the simplest solution for the WB (outside of simply making subjectively "better" movies) is to dial down the budgets, maybe plug into the FOX model of less is more.    Aquaman and its also very dumb budget of $160MM is already in the can.  Like another boardie said earlier in this thread, hopefully this experience with JL will finally force a little soul searching with what they are doing here.

-J.

I always liked the idea of an Aquaman movie, but it was always going to be very tough because it would cost a ton to do with all the underwater and/or CGI work. That's why it was parodied in Entourage, no one (including DC) ever thought it would actually be a thing.  And I'm not sure JL created enough interest in Aquaman to make sure people want to see it.  And SO FAR there hasn't been a ton of success from GOT actors doing really well in major movies, although I do think that Jason Momoa has more 'star quality' than Jon Snow or Danerys.  He could legitimately just be a younger version of the 'Rock' for the next 25 years.  But its another pretty big risk for DC, who has just been eking by

 

  I've heard a lot of excitement about the Flash though, I think if they could go back in time, they would do Flash before Aquaman to carry some of the JL 'Flash' goodwill.

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

4 minutes ago, revat said:

I always liked the idea of an Aquaman movie, but it was always going to be very tough because it would cost a ton to do with all the underwater and/or CGI work. That's why it was parodied in Entourage, no one (including DC) ever thought it would actually be a thing.  And I'm not sure JL created enough interest in Aquaman to make sure people want to see it.  And SO FAR there hasn't been a ton of success from GOT actors doing really well in major movies, although I do think that Jason Momoa has more 'star quality' than Jon Snow or Danerys.  He could legitimately just be a younger version of the 'Rock' for the next 25 years.  But its another pretty big risk for DC, who has just been eking by

 

  I've heard a lot of excitement about the Flash though, I think if they could go back in time, they would do Flash before Aquaman to carry some of the JL 'Flash' goodwill.

 

Good points. I do think the Flash tv show is such a hit that they would have to wait a few years to do the Flash movies as everybody thinks of him as the true Flash now.

.

 

[Crimebuster]

20 hours ago, kimik said:

I did not really notice the CGI'd out moustache issue, and my wife and kids said they did not notice it at all. I guess it is only comic nerds that read the fansites that did.

 

Not so! I went to see this with my girlfriend, who does not read the comics or entertainment websites, and when we left the theater almost the first thing she said was, "what was going on with Superman's face? Something was wrong there, it was weird." And when I told her about the mustache, she thought it was hilarious. 

As for the movie...

So, I hated Man of Steel, I thought Batman v Superman was a train wreck, and Suicide Squad was complete garbage. Wonder Woman I liked overall but didn't love, I thought it was a great performance/character in a very mediocre story. 

I had very low expectations for Justice League, and I got about what I expected. I thought it was really bad. However, it wasn't as painful to watch as MoS, BvS, or SS, which I chalk up to Joss Whedon's influence. You could feel him straining at the Snyder material to try and wrestle the movie into something more fun and upbeat, especially with Superman, who they clearly were trying to save from all the Snyder did with him. Very little of it worked for me, but it was nice to have a hint of color on screen, and Flash was kind of funny at times. Cyborg was okay too. But the fact that Whedon Febreezed it doesn't change the fact that he was working with poo to begin with. 

Not good! But maybe a step in the right direction if they continue moving forward with this mess. Here's hoping.

[ComicConnoisseur]

For me personally if they make the next Justice League movie than both no Batman or Superman in them.

In the comics I always enjoyed the Batman stories in the Gotham Universe and Superman in the Metropolis Universe. I never was a big fan of when they put Batman and Superman in with other heroes universes. 

Kind of like it when they go solo.

 

[revat]

Just now, ComicConnoisseur said:

Good points. I do think the Flash tv show is such a hit that they would have to wait a few years to do the Flash movies as everybody thinks of him as the true Flash now.

.

 

I think you're right, that was probably the initial thinking behind releasing a Flash movie somewhat later. But it turns out that people seem to be pretty ok with it (though it was a valid question).   And its a very difficult thing to balance, using one movie to setup another movie, especially a spinoff vs sequel.  I feel like most people left BvS saying that WW was the best part of the movie, so it was great to have WW before Justice League.  I've heard positive things about Aquaman, but I don't think ANYONE has said he was the best part of the movie.  In fact, I would argue that people would rather see these movies BEFORE Aquaman (after they saw JL):

WW2

Flash

Another Superman

Aquaman/Cyborg (it's a tie!)

 

[kimik]

1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said:

The biggest missed opportunity of the film though is that we're sitting here as comic book geeks the Monday morning after a freakin' Justice League movie and -- rather than celebrating it -- we're discussing the damage it's done and which planned DC movies may never see the light of day due to how badly Warner Bros. mismanaged it.

That's sad.

The movies will still be made. As long as they are generating $$$ the films will keep coming. 

[Chip Cataldo]

31 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

For me personally if they make the next Justice League movie than both no Batman or Superman in them.

 

[comicjack]

1 minute ago, Chip Cataldo said:

 

You guys are crazy no Bats and Sups that is just un American !

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

For me personally if they make the next Justice League movie than both no Batman or Superman in them.

In the comics I always enjoyed the Batman stories in the Gotham Universe and Superman in the Metropolis Universe. I never was a big fan of when they put Batman and Superman in with other heroes universes. 

Kind of like it when they go solo.

 

The general that 'captures' Superman was going to Martian Manhunter. But due to the abundance of easter eggs and links to other characters, Snyder backed off.

Would love to sed the Giffen Justice League team together. Including Shazam.

[Bosco685]

Justice League Post-Credits Scene Approved By SPOILER’s Creator

Spoiler

At one point in the Justice League post-credits scene, Deathstroke removes his mask and reveals Joe Manganiello in the suit. His shock white hair and black eye-patch, as well as the character’s impressive costume design, makes Manganiello’s portrayal look almost identical to the New 52 iteration of the character – and that impressed Deathstroke creator Marv Wolfman, who expressed his excitement on Twitter this morning.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Bosco685

[ComicConnoisseur]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Justice League Post-Credits Scene Approved By SPOILER’s Creator

  Reveal hidden contents

At one point in the Justice League post-credits scene, Deathstroke removes his mask and reveals Joe Manganiello in the suit. His shock white hair and black eye-patch, as well as the character’s impressive costume design, makes Manganiello’s portrayal look almost identical to the New 52 iteration of the character – and that impressed Deathstroke creator Marv Wolfman, who expressed his excitement on Twitter this morning.

Spoiler

Going forward I make Deathstroke the main character of the DC Cinematic Universe. He is DC's Punisher and Wolverine.