STAR WARS : The Force Awakens SPOILER Discussion

[theThreat]

 

After the Emperor and Vader died, there was a tidal wave of would be Rulers clamoring for Palpatine's throne. There were hundreds of MILLIONS of Imperials for the Rebels to deal with. Even after they ultimately won and created The New Republic, the Empire existed, occupying the inner core of the galaxy.

I'm perfectly fine that they're still at war. I just don't like the 'brief summary' feel it had.

 

You are talking about the Expanded Universe which Disney basically said to no longer be cannon.

 

There is no evidence at the end of ROTJ to suggest the Empire was still in control of the galaxy.

 

Let's take a look at what it lost following the Battle of Endor:

 

1) The Emperor

2) Vader

3) The new Death Star

4) Thousands of Stormtroopers and Officers that were on board

5) Several star destroyers, including one of the Superstar Destroyers.

 

Note that there is a brief scene in which Admiral Ackbar says something like "move the fleet away from the Death Star". The Empire had no way of knowing that danger was imminent and we can suspect that some of the Empire's capital ships were caught in the blast.

 

6) We see a final scene of the Rebels celebrating. It cuts to other planets where there is celebrating on every occupied world including Coruscant.

 

I am fine with there being a small splinter group of the Empire intact. But a splinter group that still, in essence, rules the Universe? It makes no sense.

[MR SigS]

 

After the Emperor and Vader died, there was a tidal wave of would be Rulers clamoring for Palpatine's throne. There were hundreds of MILLIONS of Imperials for the Rebels to deal with. Even after they ultimately won and created The New Republic, the Empire existed, occupying the inner core of the galaxy.

I'm perfectly fine that they're still at war. I just don't like the 'brief summary' feel it had.

 

You are talking about the Expanded Universe which Disney basically said to no longer be cannon.

I know, my point was that the Empire simply wouldn't cease to exist.

 

There is no evidence at the end of ROTJ to suggest the Empire was still in control of the galaxy.

 

Let's take a look at what it lost following the Battle of Endor:

 

1) The Emperor

2) Vader

3) The new Death Star

4) Thousands of Stormtroopers and Officers that were on board

5) Several star destroyers, including one of the Superstar Destroyers.

 

Note that there is a brief scene in which Admiral Ackbar says something like "move the fleet away from the Death Star". The Empire had no way of knowing that danger was imminent and we can suspect that some of the Empire's capital ships were caught in the blast.

 

6) We see a final scene of the Rebels celebrating. It cuts to other planets where there is celebrating on every occupied world including Coruscant.

 

I am fine with there being a small splinter group of the Empire intact. But a splinter group that still, in essence, rules the Universe? It makes no sense.

Palpatine said he brought "an entire Legion". I imagine the Empire had thousands of Legions spread throughout the galaxy- the one he brought was made up of his best. I doubt he brought everyone to the fight. The Empire was BIG. That's what made them Galactic.

[delekkerste]

And a great copy of the original.

 

"I think it's a very facile but quite clever forgery." - Roger Waters*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Talking in 1987 about the Waters-less Pink Floyd album A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but an apt description of Star Wars Episode VII as well.

[valiantman]

"The new Star Wars movie could have a 90% approval rating from critics and audiences, break every box office record, and there would still be 10% who aren't satisfied."

- Math

 

[Meeklo]

And a great copy of the original.

 

"I think it's a very facile but quite clever forgery." - Roger Waters*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Talking in 1987 about the Waters-less Pink Floyd album A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but an apt description of Star Wars Episode VII as well.

 

There sure has been a lot of Roger Waters comparisons in this thread...

[delekkerste]

"The new Star Wars movie could have a 90% approval rating from critics and audiences, break every box office record, and there would still be 10% who aren't satisfied."

- Math

 

 

I guess you really can fool 90% of the people all of the time.

[Thawk]

"The new Star Wars movie could have a 90% approval rating from critics and audiences, break every box office record, and there would still be 10% who aren't satisfied."

- Math

 

 

I guess you really can fool 90% of the people all of the time.

 

Man, if only I was higher minded...then I could have less fun and enjoyment...dang you smarter and more refined and thoughtful people than me!

[Comicopolis]

And a great copy of the original.

 

"I think it's a very facile but quite clever forgery." - Roger Waters*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Talking in 1987 about the Waters-less Pink Floyd album A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but an apt description of Star Wars Episode VII as well.

 

I'm not sure about the clever part.

[ShawnDeath]

"The new Star Wars movie could have a 90% approval rating from critics and audiences, break every box office record, and there would still be 10% who aren't satisfied."

- Math

 

 

I guess you really can fool 90% of the people all of the time.

 

Man, if only I was higher minded...then I could have less fun and enjoyment...dang you smarter and more refined and thoughtful people than me!

 

Agreed, I much rather be "fooled".

[TupennyConan]

And a great copy of the original.

 

"I think it's a very facile but quite clever forgery." - Roger Waters*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Talking in 1987 about the Waters-less Pink Floyd album A Momentary Lapse of Reason, but an apt description of Star Wars Episode VII as well.

 

I'm not sure about the clever part.

 

Did you dislike the Learning to Fly album or the new SW or both?

[theThreat]

Palpatine said he brought "an entire Legion". I imagine the Empire had thousands of Legions spread throughout the galaxy- the one he brought was made up of his best. I doubt he brought everyone to the fight. The Empire was BIG. That's what made them Galactic.

 

The Rebels were not the only group that hated the Empire. Every world they conquered and interfered with had thousands of inhabitants that wanted freedom. However, they were opressed due to fear. Fear of the Emperor and then later fear of the death star. Recall that the Emperor kept the Senate intact until the Death Star was built because it was too difficult to control all of these thousands of worlds without giving them some semblance of control.

 

They way I see the Empire is like Nazi germany after the Allies nailed Hitler and many of his top generals. Sure some pockets of Nazi Germany fought to the last but most just gave up and realized they were better off as POW.

[JayT]

About the EU.

 

There were a lot of good reads in the EU and a lot of ones, but no matter how any of us feel, you can put a fork in it, it's gone and it's understandable. I do think the majority of the new canon novels are pretty uninspired though.

 

I get them all pre-release and while I used to bump them up and breeze through them that day, they are kind of not winning me over with the new line of books and I think most will sit for awhile now.

 

 

Aside from Grievous in Episode II and Finn in VII, has any other non Jedi character used a lightsaber? If it can be used by anyone, why aren't these things being used by more people

 

Literally thousands of Sith use lightsabers if you count the EU.

 

I think most non-force sensitive people don't use them for the reason I think Han eludes to in the OT and basic evolution in warfare. Barring having exceptional skill, would you rather have a sword of a gun? This kind of related to the classic Indiana Jones scene where he just caps the swordsman. Anybody can use one, but I'd imagine doing all of the actual useful things like blocking and reflecting blaster shots takes preternatural skill and reflexes.

 

First off, you have this Imperial "New Order". Now, the movie explains there's a new republic. But there's also the first order operating freely, killing and terrorizing worlds like it's 30 years ago and there is still an Empire. Even more so, they are capable of building a space station that's like 10 times larger than a death star. HELLO MCFLY. They do NOT control the galaxy. They don't have thousands of conquered worlds to use for resources. They can not just go off and build it without it being detected and having the republic or the resistance come along and blow it up. Even during the OT, the empire needed to shield the construction of it's new Death star though they were firmly in control of the galaxy.

 

We don't know what their resources are, it's really left unsaid, though other material outside of the film would suggest they might not lack for resources outside of the known galaxy.

 

What we do have is evidence that they do have resources, so much so Snoke doesn't seem worried AT ALL about losing Starkiller base.

 

It's common for people to bring up real life to make comparisons that suit their arguments, but rarely do they look at in the inverse. If we are going to talk about Germany and the Nazis, they are in fact a PRIME example of how a threat can come from nothing and into a world power very quickly after a major war that they lost in recent history.

 

An incredible amount can occur in 30 years especially when considering populations and the economics of a setting that has a FTL capable population and a gigantic galaxy.

 

And it's a biggie...women make better Jedi's than men. Yep, I went there. Women are all about feelings and this is something I've wondered for decades now, would a woman be better suited to be a Jedi? I think they'd pick up on the force faster/better like the movie demonstrated. I thought the final battle was well done and balanced. Kylo got injured between Fin and Rey and the calm desolate, white environment was the perfect antithesis to the heated final battle.

 

I think there's something to be said about most of the skills/traits we think of that men have an advantage in are negated by both having the force. That said I'm not sure who is more about their feelings or whether or not that is advantageous or not.

 

Not sure that the film is trying to promote better, but more equality, which is something I found refreshing in a film that basically didn't have to do that, it was critic proof and was going to make money regardless.

 

Ok, so a woman makes for a better Jedi than a man. Does that mean that any Jedi can just pick up a lightsaber and with no training go toe-to-toe with a dark Jedi? of course not. This is a modern update political correctness gone crazy. I mean Leia was both feminist and feminine. Why did they have to turn the protagonist into an unbeatable, unstoppable warrior? Luke was well, one of the strongest Jedi ever, but even he, without Jedi training needed his life saved multiple times.

 

I don't think we are supposed to know what happened here and I think we will find out later. Rey may be exceptional, not only in terms of being a Jedi, but there just may be something we just don't about the force awakening in her that simply establishes her as a unique entity. Being Dark Jedi doesn't make anyone more powerful than not being one a dark Jedi. I think we are presented with two incompletely trained people, at least one of whom was a survivor who we saw could handle herself. I think we can all agree that even a moderately trained Jedi or Sith we have seen could probably, at this point, kill both of them easily. Remember when Dooku jacked up both Ben and Anakin? Kylo is no Dooku, who was a full blown master and one of the greatest swordsman ever (in fact all 3 of them would become masters of their form). I just don't think we are dealing with those type of players right now. These are players who are still chasing stories of the previous generation, Ridley wants to know stories, Ren wants to be Vader. Their story comes next I think.

 

Look at Phantom Menace. Ben beats Maul. While Maul tends to be overated because of his fantastic design (like Fett) and weapon, the guy did carve up Qui-Gon and he was CHASING two Jedi on purpose, and Ben beat him. That's unbelievable too except we as an audience know that he has too.

 

I also think, just from a pure movie watcher's spectacle, and a parent of daughters, I so admire that scene with Ridley. I don't really give a mess if people don't like the momentarily powerful woman, though if they do it doesn't other me, not sure why the reverse bothers them though or why they feel other people need to understand that it doesn't work. I do think it's fairly obvious this will be answered, the idea that they forgot or didn't know what they were doing seems like a longshot to me.

 

If they do not, I'd agree, that would be an oddity in the film. Rey better payoff.

 

[kav]

My big beef with Kylo is he's the same villain we've seen in countless films. Talks the same, acts the same. Really hollywood gives short shrift to the villains-the characterization effort put into them is nil.

No one is 100% evil, hollywood. Interesting villains have more dimensions-eg Hannibal Lecter.

[rjrjr]

My big beef with Kylo is he's the same villain we've seen in countless films. Talks the same, acts the same. Really hollywood gives short shrift to the villains-the characterization effort put into them is nil.

No one is 100% evil, hollywood. Interesting villains have more dimensions-eg Hannibal Lecter.

 

Interesting. If anything, I think Kylo Ren is a break from the normal Hollywood villain.

[kav]

In what way? He was the standard boastful confident sociopath as all of em.

Am I the only one who's tired of the smirking arrogant bad guy? He's in like almost every movie with a bad guy.

[loadstone]

Probably already been brought up but can the Empire build anything other than planet-sized planet destroying weapons with similarly obvious weaknesses susceptible to strafing run attacks by Rebel ships? You'd think they would have learned from the last 2 times their underbid, over-budget, overdue projects were destroyed. Do they keep hiring the same crappy contractor to design and build their secret weapons?

 

Empire Contracting Officer: Let's see, we need a new secret weapon. Well last time we built 2 death stars and they were destroyed due to some overlooked entrypoint vulnerability where a single shot could cause a chain reaction. Let's send out an RFP to the Empire's contracting firms and take bids.

 

Losing Contractor: We'll build an AI into each Star Destroyer that channels the dark side of the Force to identify all Jedi, rebels, and non-combatants based on a behavior algorithm that'll predict their probability of being against the Empire. Star destroyers will be sent to all star systems and auto target and execute all inhabitants with potential to become rebels.

 

Empire Contracting Officer: That sounds too complicated. Why not just build a really big weapon that destroys planets?

 

Losing Contractor: Well we feel this decentralized distributed approach will be difficult to attack and eliminates the type of vulnerability you suffered the last 2 times.

 

Empire Contracting Officer: You have a point, ok what's it going to cost and how soon can we get it going?

 

Losing Contractor: $350 Billion and 35 years.

 

Empire Contracting Officer: Hmm...ok, let's hear from the other team.

 

Death Star Contractor: How about we just build an even BIGGER death star that can destroy multiple planets at once. A planet sized one. We'll do it for say....$100Billion and just under 30 years...yeah that's the ticket!

 

Empire Contracting officer: Now you're talking. Ok, how do you propose to generate so much energy?

 

Death Star Contractor: We'll build an enormous reactor next to a large star that we'll slowly drain as an energy source.

 

Empire Contracting Officer: That sounds dangerous but I like it. But wait a minute, the death stars you guys built last time ended up costing over $100billion and took 10 years each? How will you guys meet those requirements?

 

Death Star Contractor: hmmm....um well...let me check on that....My engineers tell me we'll build it in a star system that happens to have a large planetary body orbiting the star. The only concern is access to the reactor would be visible from the surface.

 

Empire Contracting officer: Well how do you plan to protect it from the same vulnerabilities as before?

 

Death Star Contractor: Oh don't worry. We'll put a force field shield around the whole planet but this time we'll put the shield generator on the death star planet itself instead of on another unprotected planet. Only someone trusted on the inside or that you invite into your facility would have any chance at bringing down this shield.

 

Empire Contracting Officer:

 

 

Losing Contractor: Let's go see if Hydra's interested.

[bronze_rules]

My big beef with Kylo is he's the same villain we've seen in countless films. Talks the same, acts the same. Really hollywood gives short shrift to the villains-the characterization effort put into them is nil.

No one is 100% evil, hollywood. Interesting villains have more dimensions-eg Hannibal Lecter.

 

I don't see this. He's definitely not 100% evil, nor 1 dimensional, as he is striving to rid himself of an Achilles heel -- his weakness, which is in him -- Goodness. If anything, he perfectly represents the archetype between good and evil personified. We don't fully know of his backstory, so there may be more layers that drove him to who he is today. Anakin was once good and lured into the darkside; the Faustian bargain at work. I wouldn't doubt he has a similar backstory.

[rjrjr]

In what way? He was the standard boastful confident sociopath as all of em.

Am I the only one who's tired of the smirking arrogant bad guy? He's in like almost every movie with a bad guy.

 

Kylo Ren was conflicted in TFA. He wasn't pure dark or light for most of the movie and it isn't until the Starkiller base weapon is fully charged when he turns dark and he kills Han.

 

While it wasn't explained in the movie, my understanding is he didn't advocate using the Starkiller base on the New Republic. Hux was the embodiment of evil. Snoke as well. Kylo Ren exhibited a nuanced stance.

[fantastic_four]

Kylo Ren was conflicted in TFA. He wasn't pure dark or light for most of the movie and it isn't until the Starkiller base weapon is fully charged when he turns dark and he kills Han.

 

I'm betting that Lor San Tekka has a different opinion about when he turned dark. I'm also thinking it happened at some point prior to the point where he took the time to fetch his dead grandfather's ashes from Endor.

 

[kav]

I don't understand this talk-name one thing Kylo Ren did that was good.

I can name several things Hannibal Lecter did that were good. Gave Clarice a towel when she was wet. Killed Miggs after he assaulted her. Helped her understand herself. Helped her track Buffalo Bill.

That's a complex villain.