zhamlau Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 Ok, did some number reviews. Its sorta hard because of how the data is truncated (or just missing) but.... Movie Total Ticket Sales per 12 weeks Total Theater Weeks Revenue per Theater/week ANH $107,122,524 6280 17,057 ESB $141,572,707 8713 16,248 Over a 12 week period when you fill in the missing gaps with the previous theater showing totals, ESB was shown on 8209 screen weeks (how many weeks the film was on an individual movie screen). some weeks it was only 126 theaters showing it. Some weeks it was 1195. Over a 12 week period when you fill in the missing gaps with the previous theater showing totals, ANH was shown on 6194 screen weeks (how many weeks the film was on an individual movie screen). some weeks it was only 32 theaters showing it. Some weeks it was 1074. Basically, ESB got 20% more chances over 12 weeks and with those chances it brought in 30% more income. If you took that 20% off its total, it still out performs ANH unless I'm missing some major here. ESB appears to have done better all things being equal over its run than ANH and I think the numbers here show that. That means that the first star was sequel, which was was not only better than the first but actually a great movie in its own right, outperformed the first movie. In the 2nd and third trilogies the sequel was either slightly or greatly inferior to its lead in movie, and it did worse. I think that's the lesson to take from this. If you make a bad movie the fans hate, they wont go see it and will be less likely to support future endeavors of the brand. If you make good movies fans love, they will go see it multiple times and will be more likely to support future endeavors of the brand. TLJ only has its production to thank for its failings IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, zhamlau said: Ok, did some number reviews. Its sorta hard because of how the data is truncated (or just missing) but.... Movie Total Ticket Sales per 12 weeks Total Theater Weeks Revenue per Theater/week ANH $107,122,524 6280 17,057 ESB $141,572,707 8713 16,248 Over a 12 week period when you fill in the missing gaps with the previous theater showing totals, ESB was shown on 8209 screen weeks (how many weeks the film was on an individual movie screen). some weeks it was only 126 theaters showing it. Some weeks it was 1195. Over a 12 week period when you fill in the missing gaps with the previous theater showing totals, ANH was shown on 6194 screen weeks (how many weeks the film was on an individual movie screen). some weeks it was only 32 theaters showing it. Some weeks it was 1074. Basically, ESB got 20% more chances over 12 weeks and with those chances it brought in 30% more income. If you took that 20% off its total, it still out performs ANH unless I'm missing some major here. ESB appears to have done better all things being equal over its run than ANH and I think the numbers here show that. That means that the first star was sequel, which was was not only better than the first but actually a great movie in its own right, outperformed the first movie. In the 2nd and third trilogies the sequel was either slightly or greatly inferior to its lead in movie, and it did worse. I think that's the lesson to take from this. If you make a bad movie the fans hate, they wont go see it and will be less likely to support future endeavors of the brand. If you make good movies fans love, they will go see it multiple times and will be more likely to support future endeavors of the brand. TLJ only has its production to thank for its failings IMO. As I mentioned before Star Wars was not an overnight success and it continued to bring people back month after month year after year. With far longer staying power. Empire Strikes Back was not limited to a 3 month release like you previously mentioned. The problem was it couldn’t hold on to the theaters like Star Wars could over the longer haul on rereleases. Quite often Star Wars was going to have a more limited rerelease but instead was pushed out because of continued success. Star Wars went on to gross another $102 million after week 13 ESB went on to gross another $38 million after week 13 in its first run. In the first year Star Wars made $215 million vs ESB’s $181 million Now still thats not very far apart when you first look at it. Then you start to factor in the rereleases...In its first 1978 rerelease Star Wars made another 17 million with a total of $228. ESB’s first 1981 rerelease made another $26 million for a total of $209. In 1979 Star Wars had another strong rerelease and continued over the next few years to gross another $72 million until its next rerelease in 82 where it grossed another 47 million ESB's 82 re-release made another $11 So before the Special Editions it was roughly $323 vs EMB $222 Star Wars total before Empire $307(Unadjusted) Empire total Before Jedi $222 (Unadjusted) On Star Wars rerelease in 97 (The Special edition added another $102) ESB added $68 Star Wars final was $460 vs $290 ESB and when you look at Adjusted dollars its $1.635 million vs $901 million from ESB. That’s 55.1% What a lot of people don't know is that if you use adjusted dollar value ESB did better than ROTJ $901 vs $863 million So again you can't just grab the first 12 weeks you're not always going to get a good picture. Especially on older films in the top adjusted dollar all time list. There's other factors as well like stronger marketing and pre movie awareness. 2 things that really didn't factor into the The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens since they are both already at an ultra high peak. Looking at Day 1 The Last Jedi made around 82.5% adjusted of TFA, so I don't see how this movie was going to do better. Per theater it was 85% and per theater adjusted its around 81%. The Last Jedi will end up doing around 64% of TFA adjusted. Edited February 7, 2018 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) Id also add there is information showing that this isn't disliked nearly as much as you think. IMDB 7.5/10 308,832 votes Cinemascore: A Survey Monkey: 89% 4,441 votes Fandango: 56,591 fan ratings 4 stars out of 5 Comscore/Screen Engine: 89% Variety Magazine: Which movie do you like better Last Jedi 53.77% (4,490 votes)Force Awakens 46.23% at (3,861 votes)Total Votes: 8,351 RT: 48% 181,983 Metacritic User Score: 4.5 out of 10 6,400 If you have any other polling I'd be happy to add it. Edited February 7, 2018 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 All sites I can find only give it as a 4 month run on ESB and give those numbers. I can only go by the numbers shown and when you look at the numbers of screens based on first Major Runs and its box office, ESB destroys ANH. Also ESB and its re release came on the advent of cable TV and Video sales/rentals. Star Wars had neither for competitors and existed before the entire wave of sci-fi programing came out on its piggy back diluting the market. What factors they played its hard to say, but i'm sure those factors are baked into the overall box office. As for reviews, I think its clear Rotten Tomatoes is the most unabridged fan review site there is. I go on theirs Rotten Tomatoes: ESB 97% TLJ 48% I like pie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, zhamlau said: All sites I can find only give it as a 4 month run on ESB and give those numbers. I can only go by the numbers shown and when you look at the numbers of screens based on first Major Runs and its box office, ESB destroys ANH. Also ESB and its re release came on the advent of cable TV and Video sales/rentals. Star Wars had neither for competitors and existed before the entire wave of sci-fi programing came out on its piggy back diluting the market. What factors they played its hard to say, but i'm sure those factors are baked into the overall box office. As for reviews, I think its clear Rotten Tomatoes is the most unabridged fan review site there is. I go on theirs Rotten Tomatoes: ESB 97% TLJ 48% The numbers are incomplete on many sites. But you can put together that Empire went on to gross another 38 million after week 13 in its first run. So we know by looking at weekly totals it had to be there longer than only 3 more weeks. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Wars-Ep-V-The-Empire-Strikes-Back#tab=box-office The longest theater EMB engagement of the was first run was at 61 weeks. http://cinematreasures.org/blog/2010/5/21/happy-30th-empire Also Star Wars came out in 82 on VHS (and Cable TV) Empire didn't come out until 84. BattleStar came out in 78, Buck Rodgers 79 Even with that Star Wars continued to beat outpace Empire with the 82 rerelease, the special editions and all home media sales. Yea its clear Rotten Tomatoes an outliner. Edited February 8, 2018 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Rip said: The numbers are incomplete on many sites. But you can put together that Empire went on to gross another 38 million after week 13 in its first run. So we know by looking at weekly totals it had to be there longer than only 3 more weeks. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Wars-Ep-V-The-Empire-Strikes-Back#tab=box-office The longest theater EMB engagement of the was first run was at 61 weeks. http://cinematreasures.org/blog/2010/5/21/happy-30th-empire Also Star Wars came out in 82 on VHS (and Cable TV) Empire didn't come out until 84. BattleStar came out in 78, Buck Rodgers 79 Even with that Star Wars continued to beat outpace Empire with the 82 rerelease, the special editions and all home media sales. Yea its clear Rotten Tomatoes an outliner. Again, im going off numbers we can find. Empire had a 4 month traditional run. I compared like to like, Empire won. For staying power ill totally give it to ANH. But ANH won due to it just staying out there longer. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars4.htm By the numbers we can see on BOM its shows consistent diminishing returns week after week for 1977 uninterrupted. Heck, if you ran the movie for a year straight they sent you the birthday cake poster (which is pretty rare now, sells for a lot). Empire didnt get that advantage. I only want to compare first runs because thats all AOTC and TLJ have had/will have. If we are trying to find trends, I think the trend is only for bad sequels. Good ones hold their own or surpass on even playing fields. as for fan review, Rotten Tomatoes is closer to democracy then republic, all voices equal. Its filled with people who felt the urge to reply. I find it to be the best option for getting honest fan reaction. Its the most popular fan review site, and i feel the most honest. Rotten Tomatoes gets 82 million uniques to Meta's 32 million. Also Rotten is the 2nd most popular English speaking site for movies, and the highest ranking site for Movie reviews (IMDB offers reviews as a function but its not its primary purpose). I trust that sites user reviews the most because of it. They say it sucks, I cant argue with that. https://www.similarweb.com/top-websites/category/arts-and-entertainment/movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, zhamlau said: Again, im going off numbers we can find. Empire had a 4 month traditional run. I compared like to like, Empire won. For staying power ill totally give it to ANH. But ANH won due to it just staying out there longer. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=weekly&id=starwars4.htm By the numbers we can see on BOM its shows consistent diminishing returns week after week for 1977 uninterrupted. Heck, if you ran the movie for a year straight they sent you the birthday cake poster (which is pretty rare now, sells for a lot). Empire didnt get that advantage. I only want to compare first runs because thats all AOTC and TLJ have had/will have. If we are trying to find trends, I think the trend is only for bad sequels. Good ones hold their own or surpass on even playing fields. as for fan review, Rotten Tomatoes is closer to democracy then republic, all voices equal. Its filled with people who felt the urge to reply. I find it to be the best option for getting honest fan reaction. Its the most popular fan review site, and i feel the most honest. Rotten Tomatoes gets 82 million uniques to Meta's 32 million. Also Rotten is the 2nd most popular English speaking site for movies, and the highest ranking site for Movie reviews (IMDB offers reviews as a function but its not its primary purpose). I trust that sites user reviews the most because of it. They say it sucks, I cant argue with that. https://www.similarweb.com/top-websites/category/arts-and-entertainment/movies Box Office Mojo is just repeating the same numbers I mentioned in my previous post. Yea that cake poster is tough to get. Web hits or not when you look at polls you need to take from various sources not just rely on one. IMDB is know for its far larger FAN review base with over double RT's. For example Last Jedi has 308,832 votes to RT's 181,000 Force Awakens 226 vs 725K. RT also doesn't require you to see the movie unlike Cinemascore or Comscore. Edited February 8, 2018 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Rip said: Box Office Mojo is just repeating the same numbers I mentioned in my previous post. Web hits or not when you look at polls you need to take from various sources not just rely on one. IMDB is know for its far larger FAN review base with over double RT's. For example Last Jedi has 308,832 votes to RT's 181,000 Force Awakens 226 vs 725K. RT also doesn't require you to see the movie unlike Cinemascore or Comscore. Fair enough, we can agree to disagree I guess and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Just now, zhamlau said: Fair enough, we can agree to disagree I guess and move on. zhamlau 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azkaban Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 it still had teat milking so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryw7 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 2:51 AM, Rip said: Id also add there is information showing that this isn't disliked nearly as much as you think. IMDB 7.5/10 308,832 votes Cinemascore: A Survey Monkey: 89% 4,441 votes Fandango: 56,591 fan ratings 4 stars out of 5 Comscore/Screen Engine: 89% Variety Magazine: Which movie do you like better Last Jedi 53.77% (4,490 votes)Force Awakens 46.23% at (3,861 votes)Total Votes: 8,351 RT: 48% 181,983 Metacritic User Score: 4.5 out of 10 6,400 If you have any other polling I'd be happy to add it. 7.5 isn't great for a modern blockbuster on IMDB. If the movie is popular, the movie will have an inflated rating for months. For TLJ to already be under 8.0 isn't a great number for a movie that's been out for less than two months. It will probably fall under 7.0 within a few months. That's prequel territory, except for Revenge of the Sith, which already has a higher IMDB number than TLJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Larryw7 said: 7.5 isn't great for a modern blockbuster on IMDB. If the movie is popular, the movie will have an inflated rating for months. For TLJ to already be under 8.0 isn't a great number for a movie that's been out for less than two months. It will probably fall under 7.0 within a few months. That's prequel territory, except for Revenge of the Sith, which already has a higher IMDB number than TLJ. Its not bad. It's same as Spider-man Homecoming, better than many Marvel movies and tied with Wonder Woman. The 2nd Cap movie is only 7.7. Its been 7.5 for weeks after some 1 star bombing. Its no secret its made a small group of hardcore fans angry. But I guess we'll see in 6 months. Also there are many other review polls to choose from with far better results. Edited February 9, 2018 by Rip ComicConnoisseur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I like pie Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 8:59 PM, zhamlau said: Rotten Tomatoes is the most unabridged fan review site there is. I go on theirs Absolutely agree TLJ feels a little like that old video of that kid who just got out of the dentist office and still doped up: "Is this real life?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/9/2018 at 7:30 AM, I like pie said: Absolutely agree TLJ feels a little like that old video of that kid who just got out of the dentist office and still doped up: "Is this real life?" Giving us Solo and Kenobi will make up for it. Solo is in the can, hopefully its good. Kenobi could be a chance for the only two great actors in the PT to redeem themselves and give us something amazing. I like pie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Cataldo Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Kenobi hasn't been confirmed yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatsby77 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 2:51 AM, Rip said: Id also add there is information showing that this isn't disliked nearly as much as you think. IMDB 7.5/10 308,832 votes Cinemascore: A Survey Monkey: 89% 4,441 votes Fandango: 56,591 fan ratings 4 stars out of 5 Comscore/Screen Engine: 89% Variety Magazine: Which movie do you like better Last Jedi 53.77% (4,490 votes)Force Awakens 46.23% at (3,861 votes)Total Votes: 8,351 RT: 48% 181,983 Metacritic User Score: 4.5 out of 10 6,400 If you have any other polling I'd be happy to add it. This. The "angry fanbase" has been shown to be largely an outlier from unverified accounts on Rotten Tomatoes only -- and ones that don't jibe with user ratings from Fandango, Cinemascore, Comscore or IMDB. Why does this matter? Cinemascore polls folks as they are exiting the film; Fandango and Comscore require you to have seen the film. While IMDB does not, they are _far_ more stringent about the data they collect, because they sell that data to their paying subscribers. Rotten Tomatoes, on the other hand, requires only 15 seconds of sign-in by an anonymous poster. It is the easiest to manipulate -- especially versus the other outlets cited. And studios also use this to their advantage -- for instance, hiring firms to spam movies with positive User ratings before they are even released. Not saying that a chunk of fanboys weren't pissed off by this movie, but rather that -- good or bad -- Rotten Tomatoes user ratings are notoriously bad indicators of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Cinema score also gave pitch perfect 3, Peter Rabbit, Attack of the Clones, and The Phantom Menace A- grades....notice a pattern there? Heck even Suicide Squad got a B+ from them...Their a marketing firm. Nothing on their most recent site list has anything below a "C". Everything is just ok to Amazing according to them. It has the same issue as comscore, another marketing firm. As they explain it, they go into a theater and review people right as they are walking out happy to have seen a movie, hence their reviews are generally positive. Take them how you will. That's why I like Rotten Tomatoes. Everyone knows its for reviews and uses it as such and not just a small function of its purpose like IMDB's reviews are. You don't have to qualify your answer, and no fear of reprisal or being made to feel uncomfortable if you don't give something a good review. Since everything can have bias or manipulation going into it, I'm ok with Rotten. Ive found nearly on point i agree with most audience reviews on that site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatsby77 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Well, looks like similar manipulation goes on with IMDB as well. See this article - apparently members of the Alt-Right are trying to tank Black Panther's score, just as fans are trying to artificially boost it -- even though it's yet to be released. More than 8,000 people have voted so far, yet preview screenings didn't start until today -- in Europe. http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/02/09/black-panther-reviews-sabotage-imdb-score/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryw7 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 It's obvious that there are sinister motives behind the negative ratings for Black Panther, and it's nauseating. But the same thing doesn't apply, except maybe to a very minor degree, with TLJ. It's very obvious, reading the SW fansites, that fans are completely divided on this movie. Some people can't just accept that a lot of people really did not like this movie. It's the most divisive SW movie ever made, and that includes TPM and AOTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Larryw7 said: It's obvious that there are sinister motives behind the negative ratings for Black Panther, and it's nauseating. But the same thing doesn't apply, except maybe to a very minor degree, with TLJ. It's very obvious, reading the SW fansites, that fans are completely divided on this movie. Some people can't just accept that a lot of people really did not like this movie. It's the most divisive SW movie ever made, and that includes TPM and AOTC. It most certainly had an impact TLJ. With the SJW / alt right wing backlash. Although clearly not as much as Black Panther. I've seen nothing that shows TLJ more divided on the fan sites than TPM, and I would say its less based on polling. (Although if you look at IMDB, RT and Metacritic, then yes of course) While there are very debatable parts, I wouldn't say the movie overall is a bad one. The largest poll I've seen so far at the fan sites was www.starwarsnewsnet.com they had 86% give it an 6-10 score, 62% was 8-10 with over 5,500 votes. https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2017/12/poll-how-would-you-rate-star-wars-the-last-jedi.html If there's any other larger scale ones I'd be happy to see them. (aside from the many smaller ones here and there) No one is saying there is aren't angry fans, but the polling time and time again shows its now where near as bad as something like RT. Edited February 13, 2018 by Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...