CGC Graded art?

[Khazano]

The authentication service could be beneficial to newbs. But personally, Ive seen many many forgeries over the years. Every single one of them, I can find the tell or flaw. Any collector who'se been doing this for over 5+ years should be able to as well.

 

Now that said, the ONE time I was completely fooled by a forgery that I bought and sold being none the wiser... The original inker of a published cover piece, which was sitting in a black hole collection at the time, recreated said cover, and sold it overseas as the original. This was something he did line for line, and even went so far as to make sure you could see erased pencil lines, so it wasnt straight ink.. The forgery wasnt discovered until it had changed hands 3 times and the owner of the REAL piece put up his scan of CAF. (Which led to one heck of a mess!) --- How on earth would any authentication service protect against that?

[CartoonFanboy]

This topic has come up a couple times. Seems to surface every 1-2 years. As to the question itself, no I don't believe that CGC will ever get into, or be welcomed into, the OA market for grading or authentication purposes.

 

Logistically it's a completely different animal than grading comics, magazines etc. Condition does not play nearly as important a roll in OA as it does in comic books. Additionally CGC would have to become experts in OA provenance, not just witnessing signatures or sketches, but actually determining if an existing piece of art is authentic. As for encapsulation, I think you pretty much have to just take that off the table. Original art comes in way too many shapes and sizes for anyone to realistically be able to slab them, and that's ignoring the fact that most OA collectors don't even want their art sandwiched between two sheets of plastic.

 

To be clear I'm not saying that authentication isn't important. It's fundamental to the hobby and should be a part of any collectors skill set. Part of becoming an OA collector is learning what to look for when determining the authenticity of a piece you want to buy. Plus if you're not sure you can always ask others in the hobby. That's what's so great about these boards, you have some of the most knowledgeable people in the OA world always ready and willing to help figure out what's fake or real, and you don't even have to pay them.

 

I suppose an actual service could be helpful to those who are too trusting. But if someone is foolish enough to spend over $1,000 on a Calvin and Hobbes "original" from a 0 feedback seller on ebay, I don't see why the lack of a CGC sticker would stop them.

[BCarter27]

To me, this seems like a no-brainer for CGC. They already do it with SS sketch covers.

 

The only limiting factor would be size and shape. They already have a Letter-sized holder for Mags. They would only need to start manufacturing a 13x19 holder to float most OA pages and also handle con prints. Later on, they could add a 20x26 holder for twice-up and large art.

 

They could assign a NN grade for all non-sketch cover, stand-alone art. Send over the witness and charge the fee. They could cover every single direct-from-artist commission, page, cover, sketch, or signed con print. If you don't want the published art signed, have the artist sign an affadvait in front of the witness that goes into CGC's files along with a scan/pic of the art.

 

Or if they really want to grade it, they could EASILY establish a simple OA grading scale. Let's do it right now...

 

10 - flawless, as released by publisher, but with no page cuts, no production tape, no glue browning

9- page cuts allowed, production tape allowed, otherwise as released by publisher

8- light crease or fold that doesn't affect story, soft corners

7- light page tanning, light crease or fold in panel, light glue browning

6- combination of anything in 7

5- moderate page tanning, moderate glue browning, moderate crease or fold, small piece missing that doesn't affect art (not a publisher cut), paste-ups missing

4- heavy tanning, glue browning, or folds

3- combo of anything in 4

2- brittle or brown paper

1- pieces missing that affects art

 

 

Qualified-

-signed after publication

-paste-ups or dressing added on a non-attached transparent overlay

 

Conservation-

-de-acidified and whitened (chemical cleaning)

-dry-cleaning

 

Restoration-

-missing paper laid in

-replacement paste-ups, balloons, or trade dress affixed directly to page

-glue removed

 

Problems-

-I can see someone trimming a damaged piece to make it look like a publisher cut (which is allowed in higher grades).

-Chemical cleaning - I don't think most fine art industry folks would consider this restoration. But I think this will be the biggest point of discussion since it isn't as prevalent in comic books. Then again, this is art and should have its own set of rules.

 

Luxuriant Features-

Microchamber paper in each page

UV protection in the holder

 

Value-

For non-published pieces, I don't think grade would factor in. They would all be 10s, likely. This is simply authentication.

 

For direct-from-artist published pieces, I think grade would only factor in slightly. And again, you get authentication.

 

For secondary market published pieces, grade and authentication would only affect the value when compared against like pages. You would mainly get the restoration disclosure.

 

Opt-out-

Want it framed? Don't want to attach a grade to it to stigmatize a rare piece unnecessarily? Then, don't send it in!

[BCarter27]

To be clear, I am saying only direct-from-artist, witnessed art and prints can be SS authenticated. No after-the-fact signature authentications.

 

All other published pieces, signed or otherwise, are not SS and noted as signed comics are now.

[Terry Doyle]

This topic has come up a couple times. Seems to surface every 1-2 years. As to the question itself, no I don't believe that CGC will ever get into, or be welcomed into, the OA market for grading or authentication purposes.

 

Logistically it's a completely different animal than grading comics, magazines etc. Condition does not play nearly as important a roll in OA as it does in comic books. Additionally CGC would have to become experts in OA provenance, not just witnessing signatures or sketches, but actually determining if an existing piece of art is authentic. As for encapsulation, I think you pretty much have to just take that off the table. Original art comes in way too many shapes and sizes for anyone to realistically be able to slab them, and that's ignoring the fact that most OA collectors don't even want their art sandwiched between two sheets of plastic.

 

To be clear I'm not saying that authentication isn't important. It's fundamental to the hobby and should be a part of any collectors skill set. Part of becoming an OA collector is learning what to look for when determining the authenticity of a piece you want to buy. Plus if you're not sure you can always ask others in the hobby. That's what's so great about these boards, you have some of the most knowledgeable people in the OA world always ready and willing to help figure out what's fake or real, and you don't even have to pay them.

 

I suppose an actual service could be helpful to those who are too trusting. But if someone is foolish enough to spend over $1,000 on a Calvin and Hobbes "original" from a 0 feedback seller on ebay, I don't see why the lack of a CGC sticker would stop them.

 

Agreed.

[BCarter27]

Personally, I probably would not partake of such a service, but I think many in the Artist's Alley world of modern comic art would. I think CGC is leaving that money on the table.

[JadeGiant]

The authentication service could be beneficial to newbs. But personally, Ive seen many many forgeries over the years. Every single one of them, I can find the tell or flaw. Any collector who'se been doing this for over 5+ years should be able to as well.

 

Now that said, the ONE time I was completely fooled by a forgery that I bought and sold being none the wiser... The original inker of a published cover piece, which was sitting in a black hole collection at the time, recreated said cover, and sold it overseas as the original. This was something he did line for line, and even went so far as to make sure you could see erased pencil lines, so it wasnt straight ink.. The forgery wasnt discovered until it had changed hands 3 times and the owner of the REAL piece put up his scan of CAF. (Which led to one heck of a mess!) --- How on earth would any authentication service protect against that?

 

as a tangent ... I would love to hear more on that story, including the inker that pulled that ballsy stunt

[JadeGiant]

My first reaction is no way, but when thinking about all the slabs I see out there with people getting art down on blank covers I think there might be a market for CGC to get a small slice of the overall pie – focused on new art, done at conventions, etc. This doesn’t appeal to me because I don’t want my art in a slab but I that a lot of people love them some slabbin!

 

For older art, not a chance. Part of CGC is authentication and this would be problematic IMHO.

 

[eewwnuk]

why would people want their art slabbed?

 

art deserves to be either framed and on the wall or hidden in a portfolio in your closet!

[JadeGiant]

why would people want their art slabbed?

 

art deserves to be either framed and on the wall or hidden in a portfolio in your closet!

 

People love slabs. I think it taps into a collecting OCD gene and brings some people to their happy place.

 

I don’t care for slabs personally. BUT, in speaking to my LCS owner and seeing the increase in value they bring when it comes time to sell … I totally get it. If I were transitioning into a selling mode right now, I would be getting familiar with the process of slabbing a lot of books.

 

[jjonahjameson1]

The authentication service could be beneficial to newbs. But personally, Ive seen many many forgeries over the years. Every single one of them, I can find the tell or flaw. Any collector who'se been doing this for over 5+ years should be able to as well.

 

Now that said, the ONE time I was completely fooled by a forgery that I bought and sold being none the wiser... The original inker of a published cover piece, which was sitting in a black hole collection at the time, recreated said cover, and sold it overseas as the original. This was something he did line for line, and even went so far as to make sure you could see erased pencil lines, so it wasnt straight ink.. The forgery wasnt discovered until it had changed hands 3 times and the owner of the REAL piece put up his scan of CAF. (Which led to one heck of a mess!) --- How on earth would any authentication service protect against that?

 

I'm happy to hear you haven't personally been burned by this. I've been collecting for more than 5+ years when I got burned, likewise another local Toronto collector with a very extensive collection.

 

Honestly, the technology advances have become so state of the art that it will become increasingly more challenging to spot the reproductions.

[Eric Seffinga]

Yeah, so I'm going to have to go with a no on this one.

Like usual. There are myriad reasons why not. I can't think of a really good one for it, personally.

[zhamlau]

I think people are thinking about this the wrong way. When PSA or JSA certify an autographed item as appears authentic they don't slab the photo or poster. They attach a small sticker to the front (or back if you want) and give you s photo matching COA. The only thing attached to this would be a 1 inch sticker on the back with a registry number. You put that number in online on the site, a photo of the art pops up on the site (front and back) confirming what you have passes muster.

 

It would probably do very well on older and newer material. I dont see a huge value in it to people who have held a page or two in their lives but i know many people who would like to buy who ask "how do you know its real?". I can see this being a benefit to them.

 

 

[StuporMan]

Dunno, not much difference between a slab and a picture frame to me. Either way it's behind glass although frames can get pretty extravagant, the slab would be more practical. I think once sequential art starts going for multiples of 100k, then forgers will stop forging art and go for sequential art. Someone will need to step up to authenticate it outside the auction house.

[Mighty Hal]

Now that said, the ONE time I was completely fooled by a forgery that I bought and sold being none the wiser... The original inker of a published cover piece, which was sitting in a black hole collection at the time, recreated said cover, and sold it overseas as the original. This was something he did line for line, and even went so far as to make sure you could see erased pencil lines, so it wasnt straight ink.. The forgery wasnt discovered until it had changed hands 3 times and the owner of the REAL piece put up his scan of CAF. (Which led to one heck of a mess!) --- How on earth would any authentication service protect against that?

 

That is absolutely a story I'd love to hear.

 

[Khazano]

Now that said, the ONE time I was completely fooled by a forgery that I bought and sold being none the wiser... The original inker of a published cover piece, which was sitting in a black hole collection at the time, recreated said cover, and sold it overseas as the original. This was something he did line for line, and even went so far as to make sure you could see erased pencil lines, so it wasnt straight ink.. The forgery wasnt discovered until it had changed hands 3 times and the owner of the REAL piece put up his scan of CAF. (Which led to one heck of a mess!) --- How on earth would any authentication service protect against that?

 

That is absolutely a story I'd love to hear.

 

Wow, this goes back a while, maybe 6 or 7 years now. Its all in the comicart-l archive which Ive pulled out to refresh my own memory of exactly how it all went down. (Post #300208) Basically goes like this.

 

In 2006 I bought a cover from a collector in the Netherlands, sold it a few months later, went on with my life. 2009 I get an ANGRY email from the collector I sold the cover too, claiming its a forgery, and has emails from both penciller and inker verifying it's fake which he later showed me. So, I in turn email the foreign collector whom I purchased it from, whom shows me his correspondence with the inker, Rick Ketcham. These emails clearly show Rick sold said foreign collector the cover under the pretense it was the real published cover.... So, I email Rick, trying to get to the bottom of this. Maybe the pasage of time has gotten the better of him right? Its all a big misunderstanding. Well, nope. Rick outright denies he ever sold anyone that cover and claims Im a con artist trying to scam him. After that, he would not respond to me anymore. The only person he'd talk to is the collector with the forged cover, and he was spinning a big ol story about a conspiracy to defraud both of them and not to believe myself or anyone else contacting him about the cover. Needless to say, Tim Townsend ended up getting to the bottom of the case and intervening, with Rick ultimately fessing up to what he did. He blamed it on being sick and a desperate need for living expenses. Rick promised to pay back the burned collector, and last I heard, had paid a total of 120.00.

 

This also lead to it's own bit of side drama, in that, who is now responsible to pay back and who? Which one of us is the poor guy left trying to get money from the broke, crooked, artist? One would think, burned collector gets a refund from me, I get a refund from the foreign collector, foreign collector now has to get refund from Rick since he was the one who originally purchased it from him. Obviously none of us wanted to be that guy at the end, but it sounded straight forward. However the collector from the Netherlands wasn't having any that. Nope. His response about the chain of refunds was this... (and this is a direct quote)

 

"If my sons bike gets stolen, someone buys it from the thief, I cannot get my bike back from the people who bought it. Legally I would need their help to get to the thief. From there the thief would have to pay me, or pay the people their money and I can get my bike back."

 

And just like that, he promptly washed his hands of the situation. I got very angry with him and words were exchanged. I don't think he's been active in the hobby since then.... Anyways the person who owns the fake cover ended up saying, "Look Ricks paying me back, I don't mind the cover, why don't you give me a $250 refund (1/3 the price) and we'll put it all behind us." Which I did.

 

But yeah. Forgeries do happen. In this case by one of the original artists for the specific purpose of fraud. Reading these posts makes me think Ive been more fortunate than I realize in that I haven't come across any other really convincing ones. But I still dont think CGC is the way to go though... A authentication service with a completely different business model, maybe. But not CGC as it currently stands.

[Brian Peck]

This would never work for comic art. With comics its expected comic books when printed will be in the 9.5 to 10.0. Then the grading of the comic from there takes in account handling, reading, shipping damage etc. Problem with comic art is a Kirby page may never have been in the 9.5 to 10.0 range ever, it could have left Kirby hands as an 8, inkers hands has a 7, letterer as a 6.5 and the printer as a 5. This is production art never considered for the commercial market while comic books by their very nature is a commodity.

Prior to the mid 90s you expect comic art to have glue stains, whiteout etc because the artists one purpose was to produce art for production and didn't care what he or she used to produce it, including blades to rough up the paper or markers that would eventually fade.

[BCarter27]

Brian, I think I fairly covered most of that in my possible grading scale above. What do you think of those criteria?

 

Again, CGC could easily enter this market as just a SS no-grade witnessing service. Maybe the grading (or basic resto check) would be an optional addon to that service.

 

At minimum, grading could be useful as restoration disclosure (which will become more common as all of the art ages and needs to be de-acidified and/or de-glued.)

 

The form factor for comic art is pretty standardized compared to other illustration art.

 

I think all it would take is one con's worth of CGC verified art and prints before the dealers start to see value in the reselling. Then it takes off from there.

 

I'm not sure why this idea is such a hard sell. This whole process is exactly what happened in comics when CGC came up in the first place.

 

 

[vodou]

This would never work for comic art. With comics its expected comic books when printed will be in the 9.5 to 10.0. Then the grading of the comic from there takes in account handling, reading, shipping damage etc. Problem with comic art is a Kirby page may never have been in the 9.5 to 10.0 range ever, it could have left Kirby hands as an 8, inkers hands has a 7, letterer as a 6.5 and the printer as a 5.

There is a standard in fine art condition reports of identifying an object's condition as better or worse (probably with more detail than that though) than "other similar objects of similar age". This allows for some play, while still giving an honest appraisal, without a piece on condition alone. So all those Kirbys with tons of graphite 'stains' on the back - all good, a specific identifier to Kirby's working method, so actually BETTER than good

 

But getting to a numerical grade (or any similar standardized system), it's still good -in theory- as there is a hierarchy, across the entire hobby, which does matter to some or even many collectors.

[vodou]

I'm not sure why this idea is such a hard sell. This whole process is exactly what happened in comics when CGC came up in the first place.

There will always be those resistant to change. (Usually it's me!) Should CGC or another entity choose to make a move in this direction, the market will speak with it's collective wallet. The endeavor will either be profitable or not. Individual opinions don't matter (except to the individuals). End of story.