CGC Graded art?

[StuporMan]

Plastic slab vs frame hanging in my living room? And what about those with hundreds of pieces in sleeves? Or dealers transporting their stock to shows? Gonna need a storage unit after they are converted to slabs. I'd rather enjoy my collection flipping through sleeves in Itoya portfolios than moving around stacks of plastic.

Bottom line why I think it wouldn't work though is that CGC would never guarantee that the art is authentic unless they witnessed its creation. So that's about 100% of all published artwork that exists. Ok, there may be some modern exceptions out there so I'll say 99.999%.

 

 

Apples/oranges comparison there. You would have to use the example of a dealer transporting a bunch of framed art vs. cgc slabs. The CGC slabs would be cheaper, lighter, less prone to damage and authenticated. Also if CGC were to grade art doesn't mean you have to get it encapsulated. It's just like comics, tons of dealers still deal in raw books - especially when transporting them to shows. Plastic sleeves haven't gone out of business because of CGC

 

I think your bottom line could possibly explain why they haven't gone into this yet.

[Marwai]

What they will probably do is just add a sticker/barcode/hologram/tattoo to the back of the art and enter it into their searchable database and not grade the art, but just use it as authentication like those PSA/DNA autograph authentication services. Or they might just put it all in a fancy mylar with their authentication card since some pieces are too fragile. But then for old art, you'd have to pay experts to authenticate the art. Most of the experts will be certain dealers and they don't have the time or be willing to making less money for more work and to give up being a dealer.

We've already seen some dealers have trouble identifying old Kirby sketches.

[IngelsFan]

Maybe they could slab sketches and instead of a 10 point scale for grading use a 100 point scale for how certain they are of it's authenticity. If you witness it being sketched? 100. If you bought it in a Wal Mart parking lot from a guy who said he bought it at ComicCon in 1987? 30.

Totally being facetious here, only because I think the idea is so ridiculous.

[oceans11]

As far as condition of art pages, Walt Simonson comes to mind immediately. Does one of his pages with coffee stains rate higher than one without? Grading one of a kind pages is difficult and unnecessary.

 

As far as authenticating against fakes, I refer back to the aforementioned fake cover issue.. with the inker recreating it down to erased pencil lines. Not necessarily sure CGC would be able to detect that as a fake, and then what happens when it is authenticated as "real" but discovered to be a fake when the real art shows up? Who is liable for that? Is CGC liable as they authenticated it? Not sure they would want to take on this type of liability.

 

[aokartman]

Also, art sent for authenticity could come back "forgery" even if the owner knows full well the art is genuine. This happens now with signatures. Best if the comic art hobby does not require the "certificate" industry. Another costly layer which does not add real value for the buyer, in my opinion. Of course, there is money to be made, so my hopes will likely be dashed, and non-certified comic art will be stigmatized and eventually banned from meaningful resale much like comic books. Sad. Best wishes, David

[BCarter27]

Sketches and commissions are the most likely to be faked. So direct-from-artist pieces (sketch, commission, published or unpublished pages, covers, and pinups) are all prime candidates for this service.

 

Living artists could also verify secondary market pieces with a signature and witness.

 

Authenticating pieces from an artist who has passed away or is unavailable would not work for this. I think any such authentication service from so-called experts wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.

 

Bottom line is that CGC is already doing all of this with sketch covers. They just need to buy larger plastic.

[StuporMan]

Dealers do not transport the majority of their stock framed though. And I'm trying to understand why anyone would want a grading service on a one-of-a-kind original item with no other examples to compare against. Grade simply wouldn't factor into your decision process for a sale unless it's completely deteriorating. At that point you wouldn't need an expert opinion to tell you that.

 

I agree, I don't think assigning the art a grade would really do any good to the collector. More important would be CGC's seal of approval/authentication on the art, however they want to do it. I wouldn't care what "grade" the art is, but I would care if it was modified by a 3rd party. I doubt many could tell the difference between a well-done tribute and OA unless they were holding them next to each other - and why would a scammer let that happen?

 

As far as the slab itself, I was just trying to make the point if you are going to be comparing framed art to CGC slabbed art - the comparisons should stay the same

 

So for the sake of argument, let's say that "graded" art just means authenticated and sealed art by CGC.

[zhamlau]

Again, art wouldn't be slabbed by anyone. It would just be treated like any signed photo/document/item PSA/DNA certifies (or JSA/BGS). Sticker on back, photo COA, searchable database with photos of your page.

 

No heavy slabs, no worrying about "condition" grading. The service would just say "Real/Not Real".

 

That would bring a LOT more people into the fold, for better or worse. When they realize how brutally difficult it would be to forge published pages/covers I think they will quickly no longer care but as a first step the sticker authentication step would be a help for new collectors.

[AKA Rick]

Plus, CGC isn't the be all, end all in terms of authentication and grading judgment, as many know it's very subjective as more of a professional opinion than a steadfast rule and guarantee.

 

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

The slab would simply serve as a very aesthetic picture frame for the artwork as well as archival quality storage, which isn't a bad think at all, but not a necessity.

 

I do think the CGC Signature Series for commissions would be better for Original Art than looking at CGC to authenticate published artwork. I still don't think CGC's witnesses are iron clad with integrity and trust, but at the same time, I think they're 90-95% there and the process provides better odds of providing legitimate provenience of the who what where of a piece's origins.

 

 

[StuporMan]

Again, art wouldn't be slabbed by anyone. It would just be treated like any signed photo/document/item PSA/DNA certifies (or JSA/BGS). Sticker on back, photo COA, searchable database with photos of your page.

 

No heavy slabs, no worrying about "condition" grading. The service would just say "Real/Not Real".

 

That would bring a LOT more people into the fold, for better or worse. When they realize how brutally difficult it would be to forge published pages/covers I think they will quickly no longer care but as a first step the sticker authentication step would be a help for new collectors.

 

100%!

[StuporMan]

 

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

 

These are all reasons why I think authentication would be truly valuable, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an artist/publisher trimmed piece done 40 years ago or art trimmed by the seller yesterday.

 

The boardies have brought up some great points and convinced me that grading would not be necessary. So I think from here on out let's focus on authenticating...

 

It would be great if you could pass an art piece through multiple authenticators, like CGC, PSA/DNA, and IFAR - just to get a consensus that the art has not been tampered with, is original and done by who actually did it. I've passed on so many sketches and sequential art where the auction house says "artist unknown, signed by blah"

 

It would be encased in something lightweight yet protective and have stickers similar to CGC's that have forging-discouraging holograms.

[rsonenthal]

 

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

 

These are all reasons why I think authentication would be truly valuable, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an artist/publisher trimmed piece done 40 years ago or art trimmed by the seller yesterday.

 

The boardies have brought up some great points and convinced me that grading would not be necessary. So I think from here on out let's focus on authenticating...

 

It would be great if you could pass an art piece through multiple authenticators, like CGC, PSA/DNA, and IFAR - just to get a consensus that the art has not been tampered with, is original and done by who actually did it. I've passed on so many sketches and sequential art where the auction house says "artist unknown, signed by blah"

 

It would be encased in something lightweight yet protective and have stickers similar to CGC's that have forging-discouraging holograms.

 

 

What do you do when the artists are no longer living? How does one decide who did what?

[AKA Rick]

 

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

 

These are all reasons why I think authentication would be truly valuable, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an artist/publisher trimmed piece done 40 years ago or art trimmed by the seller yesterday.

 

The boardies have brought up some great points and convinced me that grading would not be necessary. So I think from here on out let's focus on authenticating...

 

It would be great if you could pass an art piece through multiple authenticators, like CGC, PSA/DNA, and IFAR - just to get a consensus that the art has not been tampered with, is original and done by who actually did it. I've passed on so many sketches and sequential art where the auction house says "artist unknown, signed by blah"

 

It would be encased in something lightweight yet protective and have stickers similar to CGC's that have forging-discouraging holograms.

 

 

What do you do when the artists are no longer living? How does one decide who did what?

 

I think it could be a "Moving Forward" service much like CGC signature series, so from this day forward, anyone who wants something with the credentials can opt for the service, anything prior is left out.

[BCarter27]

You wouldn't submit pieces for artists who are no longer living (unless you wanted it graded). And any existing signatures would be treated as non-witnessed signatures are currently treated by CGC.

 

 

[Lucky Baru]

 

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

 

These are all reasons why I think authentication would be truly valuable, because I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an artist/publisher trimmed piece done 40 years ago or art trimmed by the seller yesterday.

 

The boardies have brought up some great points and convinced me that grading would not be necessary. So I think from here on out let's focus on authenticating...

 

It would be great if you could pass an art piece through multiple authenticators, like CGC, PSA/DNA, and IFAR - just to get a consensus that the art has not been tampered with, is original and done by who actually did it. I've passed on so many sketches and sequential art where the auction house says "artist unknown, signed by blah"

 

It would be encased in something lightweight yet protective and have stickers similar to CGC's that have forging-discouraging holograms.

 

 

What do you do when the artists are no longer living? How does one decide who did what?

 

I think it could be a "Moving Forward" service much like CGC signature series, so from this day forward, anyone who wants something with the credentials can opt for the service, anything prior is left out.

 

The only thing that might be an issue is that everything is going digital.

[BCarter27]

With comic art, it's also difficult to truly grade, but rather just cite certain characteristics. Would the use of white out penalize a piece? Trimmed/Clipped corners or edges which is done by the artist as a part of the production process? Penciler's notes in the margins for the inkers?

 

Nope. See my possible criteria above. I tried to focus on after-the-fact damage-

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9252874#Post9252874

 

The one exception would be a 10. With CGC now, the 10 represents an idealized state of a given book that many rarely meet (cover aligned properly, etc.)

 

With art, it would be the same... 10 is a piece with no page cuts, glue, or unsightly elements even if they were an accepted part of the production process for a 9 grade.

 

 

[BCarter27]

The only thing that might be an issue is that everything is going digital.

 

That's even easier... The artist buys a digital ID certificate and uses that to digitally sign the commission inside a PDF. Done.

[JadeGiant]

I just don’t see grading on older art as anything many would care about. I know I don’t care if a corner is cut, comments in the margins, loose word bubble, etc. For me those things usually add character to the piece. So I have consecutive pages and one is graded lower because of a prod cut and maybe a couple soft corners? I find it a bit silly personally. Even some slight discoloring doesn’t bother me much, if at all. That’s my .02, YMMV

[Pete Marino]

I see very little value in grading OA. Very little value of the art is tied to the condition, unless it's severely damaged. I've never seen a page with corners clipped and thought, well that drops the value of the page $500!

 

It's not like a comic where there are multiple copies and grade is the differentiator for value.

 

I can see some value in a verification service like PSA for sketches, and a guess a little for published pages.

 

All I know is if there's a sticker it better be a hologram! I love me some holograms!

[oceans11]

If it was comic books where there are hundreds to thousands of identical copies in varying condition, then sure grading is fine. But with comic art pages, where there is only one, condition will play a factor, but there isn't the opportunity to get an different copy of that page. It's not like you can say, "hey, I like the Spider Man Romita page with first appearance of Mary Jane but that one would only grade a 3 on the scale, I'm going to hold out for a 10 graded page to show up". You either want the page or not In the condition it is in. Grading will have no bearing on the page's desirability.