Outrage!!! Cho leaves Wonder Woman

[drotto]

Personally, I've always found Cho's work, somewhat tame - light GGA - not offensive to me personally. Even this piece, I personally wouldn't have thought twice about.

 

What I take issue with is the artist making a big deal about essentially not being able to fulfill his contract, because he couldn't take direction. It's in his best interest to paint this as an 'outrage', because realistically, DC COULD sue him for breach of contract if they decided to be real sticklers about it. He wasn't being asked to do anything different than any other artist in the 80+ years comics have been published.

 

He just didn't want to do it.

 

If you look at the final color cover, DC did crop the drawing somewhat and the pose seems less extreme, and nothing is exposed.

[Revol]

 

What I take issue with is the artist making a big deal about essentially not being able to fulfill his contract, because he couldn't take direction. It's in his best interest to paint this as an 'outrage', because realistically, DC COULD sue him for breach of contract if they decided to be real sticklers about it. He wasn't being asked to do anything different than any other artist in the 80+ years comics have been published.

 

He just didn't want to do it.

 

His ego won't let him take direction, or any criticism. This is the guy who as a juror twice nominated himself for an Ignatz award.

[dupont2005]

Cho is a great illustrator. I hate when great illustrators are confined to variant covers. Or even just covers. Now that the internet is a thing I'll never buy a comic just because it has a cool cover. I can look at the cover online for free. Let him do some interior work. Who cares if it can't be double shipped? Let him do a mini, a graphic novel.

[revat]

Cho is a great illustrator. I hate when great illustrators are confined to variant covers. Or even just covers. Now that the internet is a thing I'll never buy a comic just because it has a cool cover. I can look at the cover online for free. Let him do some interior work. Who cares if it can't be double shipped? Let him do a mini, a graphic novel.

 

I don't know if Cho qualifies, but sometimes artists with popular covers cannot or choose not to do whole books, either because of time constraints, inability to tell stories through art consistently (or for that genre/character), inability to work with others, simply not financially reasonable (getting paid for covers is generally more buck for your bang), or they just haven't seen the same type of commercial success when doing the interiors.

 

Some Examples:

 

Gabriel Del'Otto can't paint a whole book regularly in his signature style, and if its near. the same amount of work...why not take the bigger paycheck for the covers?

 

Greg Capullo covers aren't anything really specially, but his interior work is perfect in most cases, going back from spawn to batman.

 

But try reading a whole J Scott Campbell issue, I guarantee you will get tired of those effing lady noses by page 6.

 

Nothing wrong with playing to your strengths, and nothing wrong with expanding your base and repertoire, as ultimately the market will respond if and how its appropriate.

 

 

[shockmatrix]

If you're a creative working in a WFH situation, whether on a contractual or salaried basis, you will have editors and layers of superiors who will control your output and modify it to fit the company's intent. That's what WFH is for. You're not free to do whatever you please with IPs belonging to other individuals or companies.

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

[SquareChaos]

So this is the Rucka approved art? Really? But Cho's 'doesn't fit'. Why? Because it's more realistic?

 

Rucka is an absolute hypocrite.

 

 

 

When was that run? Early 2000s? Not in an attempt to give a free pass, but in an attempt to perhaps add a little context... a lot has changed over the last decade concerning the topic of sex and gender in comics. And who knows, maybe he didn't like it then, but had no power to change it.

 

I think you're throwing around 'hypocrite' pretty lightly. We'll never know the real story I imagine, not unless Rucka writes a tell-all about it, and I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

 

Doesn't the entire existence and complete catalog of Zenescope belie this statement?

 

No offense to anyone that collects it, but Zenescope is barely a blip on the radar. When I say "women in comics" I'm talking about the comic characters in the eye of the public - DC and Marvel.

 

If either of the Big Two published that content unchanged we'd all hear about it.

[Darjis_]

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Did you not read his full comment about the situation? His (verbal) contract guaranteed him creative control of the covers.

 

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

 

ironic that you stated the bolded bit directly above a quote that included previous WW covers that Rucka approved....

[dupont2005]

Cho is a great illustrator. I hate when great illustrators are confined to variant covers. Or even just covers. Now that the internet is a thing I'll never buy a comic just because it has a cool cover. I can look at the cover online for free. Let him do some interior work. Who cares if it can't be double shipped? Let him do a mini, a graphic novel.

 

I don't know if Cho qualifies, but sometimes artists with popular covers cannot or choose not to do whole books, either because of time constraints, inability to tell stories through art consistently (or for that genre/character), inability to work with others, simply not financially reasonable (getting paid for covers is generally more buck for your bang), or they just haven't seen the same type of commercial success when doing the interiors.

 

Some Examples:

 

Gabriel Del'Otto can't paint a whole book regularly in his signature style, and if its near. the same amount of work...why not take the bigger paycheck for the covers?

 

Greg Capullo covers aren't anything really specially, but his interior work is perfect in most cases, going back from spawn to batman.

 

But try reading a whole J Scott Campbell issue, I guarantee you will get tired of those effing lady noses by page 6.

 

Nothing wrong with playing to your strengths, and nothing wrong with expanding your base and repertoire, as ultimately the market will respond if and how its appropriate.

 

True, some are really just pinup artists, but I think Cho pulls it off. I read the first volume of Danger Girl, and it took me a couple tries to get past the second page. The panel layout was JARRING to me. But once I got past it, it was a fun spy spoof. But I don't think Campbell is nearly the talent a lot of people seem to think he is.

[shockmatrix]

Did you not read his full comment about the situation? His (verbal) contract guaranteed him creative control of the covers.

 

It was a verbal promise, not a contract. DC does not do verbal contracts.

 

ironic that you stated the bolded bit directly above a quote that included previous WW covers that Rucka approved....

 

That was 15 years ago, on a different version of the book, in a different comic market, and in a different political and social landscape. If one was to take your current views and compare them to your history, likely discrepancies would arise.

 

We do not have the contracts for Hiketeia to see who approved that art at DC, nor are those the subject at hand. The current discussion focuses on a WFH creator quitting out of a contract after being unable to handle creative differences and art direction from his superiors.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Did you not read his full comment about the situation? His (verbal) contract guaranteed him creative control of the covers.

 

 

Really...? According to whom...? Cho? He's got a bit of a self-interest there, no...?

 

And who was Chiarello to be promising anyone anything that he...*clearly*...didn't have the authority to be promising?

 

A contract, verbal or no, is unenforceable if parties engaging therein have no legal authority to do so.

 

I'm not saying that was absolutely the case; that's up to DC legal to decide. But, as is clear from the consequent results, Rucka, not Chiarello, was the one who had the authority to make these decisions in this situation.

 

 

 

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

 

ironic that you stated the bolded bit directly above a quote that included previous WW covers that Rucka approved....

 

 

Why? Who thinks that portraying women as physically attractive is DISempowering, or misrepresents women...?

 

People who are jealous of feminine beauty, mainly, and seek to minimize it.

 

There is great power in physical beauty, for good or for ill.

 

 

[Ken Aldred]

Cho has essentially drawn the same face on the same small headed woman since the late 90s, just with different outfits. And now with added Serpieri style cross hatching of course.

 

 

Being British myself, Cho always seemed a bit fixated on what I see as a fairly archetypal Celtic look; dark, almost jet-black hair, fair skin and blue eyes.

[comix4fun]

So this is the Rucka approved art? Really? But Cho's 'doesn't fit'. Why? Because it's more realistic?

 

Rucka is an absolute hypocrite.

 

 

 

When was that run? Early 2000s? Not in an attempt to give a free pass, but in an attempt to perhaps add a little context... a lot has changed over the last decade concerning the topic of sex and gender in comics. And who knows, maybe he didn't like it then, but had no power to change it.

 

I think you're throwing around 'hypocrite' pretty lightly. We'll never know the real story I imagine, not unless Rucka writes a tell-all about it, and I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

 

Doesn't the entire existence and complete catalog of Zenescope belie this statement?

 

No offense to anyone that collects it, but Zenescope is barely a blip on the radar. When I say "women in comics" I'm talking about the comic characters in the eye of the public - DC and Marvel.

 

If either of the Big Two published that content unchanged we'd all hear about it.

 

 

Those books are ubiquitous, online, at conventions, with all the wank material variants that go along with it. All of that with nary a peep of protest.

 

If you want to see how the big two feature their women check out their licensed statues or pick up a title like Gotham city sirens and peruse the covers or even better yet all the shots from the suicide squad movie with Margot Robbie bending over in booty shorts.

 

I don't think the hobby has evolved very much since the 90's, the last time big ole teets had their run to glory.

[comix4fun]

Cho has essentially drawn the same face on the same small headed woman since the late 90s, just with different outfits. And now with added Serpieri style cross hatching of course.

 

 

Being British myself, Cho always seemed a bit fixated on what I see as a fairly archetypal Celtic look; dark, almost jet-black hair, fair skin and blue eyes.

 

 

To be fair I think that's from his syndicated comic strip days. It was black and white all week. Black hair played better and looked more complete in that media.

[Darjis_]

Alright to sum up the last 14 pages:

 

Some people think Rucka is awesome

Something people think Cho is awesome

 

Some people think Rucha is a jerk

Some people think Cho is a jerk.

 

 

/discussion

 

 

[comix4fun]

Sounds like a simple situation where one guy was promised one thing and one guy was promised another and they conflicted. Beyond that I don't want to read anything into their motives because we don't have a enough to go on.

 

I do know it's rare, exceedingly rare, for a writer to have editorial control over variant covers or covers at all. Usually editorial control resides with, well, the editor. That's what they are there for.

 

DC , especially , has worked on the "submit your prelims for approval, get approved or rejected or changed , and go to final from there" model for decades. This situation indicates something that would justifiably surprise both an editor and artist, especially if they artist and editor had agreed on something different when entering on the project.

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

I like Chos work but that doesn't mean I like Cho the person

 

 

 

[BOOT]

If you're a creative working in a WFH situation, whether on a contractual or salaried basis, you will have editors and layers of superiors who will control your output and modify it to fit the company's intent. That's what WFH is for. You're not free to do whatever you please with IPs belonging to other individuals or companies.

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

 

Arbitrary post-approval changes wreak havoc with an artist's schedule and cost them time and money. By demanding arbitrary and unexpected changes, this writer cost his colleague time and money, and ultimately a job.

 

 

[eewwnuk]

Adding a lasso and asking to cover the underwear wrecked havoc to his schedule?

[Prince Namor]

If you're a creative working in a WFH situation, whether on a contractual or salaried basis, you will have editors and layers of superiors who will control your output and modify it to fit the company's intent. That's what WFH is for. You're not free to do whatever you please with IPs belonging to other individuals or companies.

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

 

Arbitrary post-approval changes wreak havoc with an artist's schedule and cost them time and money. By demanding arbitrary and unexpected changes, this writer cost his colleague time and money, and ultimately a job.

 

 

Editorial changes to artwork has been around the comics' industry since day one.

[rjrjr]

 

Cho is a crybaby. His contract wasn't changed, abused, or voided. He didn't like being controlled, and instead of taking responsibility for his failings to get the verbal promises made by DC in writing, he vented to a tabloid.

 

Did you not read his full comment about the situation? His (verbal) contract guaranteed him creative control of the covers.

 

 

Anyone who has met Greg Rucka in person, or had a chance to converse with him extensively, will know him as a straight-shooter. He has strong opinions that are supported with voracious research. Rucka is an advocate for better representation of women, POC, and other minority groups in the industry. These positions are represented in his books, and these books are amongst the most quality modern comic related publications. If his positions clash with what may be considered the norm, perhaps it is time to reevaluate that norm.

He does now.

ironic that you stated the bolded bit directly above a quote that included previous WW covers that Rucka approved....

 

Rucka didn't have a say on the cover when he did those other Wonder Woman comics.