FF #1 Found in Trash-was cgc 2.0 Now on ebay as 4.5?

[blazingbob]

So you are basically in the camp that CGC can grade, dealers cannot. Which then begs me to ask what makes Steve Borock, Paul Litch and Mark Haspel any better than a Overstreet dealer in grading? Except for Steve I'd say the grading experience of Mark/Paul is less than Harley. I'll leave the "new grading guys" out of the loop since they would have had to be trained by the "original three".

 

They use unpublished standards, grade by committee and how they feel that day. And when you argue with them it's one (You) versus them three (3). If the book did get regraded and came back higher would Luckystiff be upset that CGC undergraded it the first time? Or should the real issue be why does CGC feel it's a good versus Harley thinking it's a VG+. Both have opinions and BOTH opinions count.

[Ron_Nasty]

Should've cleaned the comic instead.

[blazingbob]

Sure, dry clean right through the cover

[jbud73]

So you are basically in the camp that CGC can grade, dealers cannot. Which then begs me to ask what makes Steve Borock, Paul Litch and Mark Haspel any better than a Overstreet dealer in grading? Except for Steve I'd say the grading experience of Mark/Paul is less than Harley. I'll leave the "new grading guys" out of the loop since they would have had to be trained by the "original three".

 

They use unpublished standards, grade by committee and how they feel that day. And when you argue with them it's one (You) versus them three (3). If the book did get regraded and came back higher would Luckystiff be upset that CGC undergraded it the first time? Or should the real issue be why does CGC feel it's a good versus Harley thinking it's a VG+. Both have opinions and BOTH opinions count.

 

I agree with this statement Bob, though I have a few comments - assuming that Harley bought the book slabbed, which we have no way of confirming, do you not feel that its prudent to disclose the CGC grade if he knew it??

 

Second, those are some pretty large water stains, does the book look VG+ to you?

 

I will concur that its frustrating to not know the standards and that they are not published. If consensus or anything approaching consensus is ever to be achieved then I have always thought it to be in the best interest of the hobby that standards ARE published. I thik by trial and error we know that CGC hammers books for staining but what we don't know is how much they hammer the book for this.

 

Its always been my contention that if CGC is as confident as they like to claim about their consistency, then they should publish the criteria that its based on. I mean even in generalsitic terms.

[Foolkiller]

My position is that if you know the book has already been graded by CGC one way, and you grade it 2 1/2 points better, because that's what you honestly believe it is, then yes, I think CGC can grade and the dealer can't in that case.

 

Here's the problem I have with what's going on: (this is all based on the scenario where Harley knew it graded at 2.0 already) Harley is trying, over the internet where perhaps a scan doesn't give indication to how banged up the book is to be graded a 2.0, he's trying to take advantage of the fact that he's an Overstreet advisor with years of experience. If he's so confident in his grade, y'know what? Say CGC graded this a 2.0 but I graded it a 4.5 because I think CGC totally missed the boat on this one.

 

A book that is expensive has thousands of dollars in the swing from 2.0 to 4.5 -- yes grading is subjective, but CGC, who is forgiving in my opinion on low grades, said Good. Harley HONESTLY believes it's a 4.5? Well then, yeah, I might say that Harley's grading is way off. If he says G+ or G/VG I might say, ok, I can see the difference, but a VG+... c'mon?

 

Sure, both opinions count. But selling a raw FF #1 brings in less than a slabbed FF#1 generally -- unless you artificially enhance the grade of the raw FF #1 so the buyer has to guess if it has been accurately graded. Since CGC is now the standard by which all other grading is measured (because of valuation more than anything else) their opinion counts more than anyone else's. If I plunk down $1k for a 9.0, but get an 8.0 from CGC, I'm gonna be ticked off. It happens, but I won't be happy. If I buy a 9.0 and get a 7.0, I'm going to assume the dealer was really off.

 

So you are basically in the camp that CGC can grade, dealers cannot. Which then begs me to ask what makes Steve Borock, Paul Litch and Mark Haspel any better than a Overstreet dealer in grading? Except for Steve I'd say the grading experience of Mark/Paul is less than Harley. I'll leave the "new grading guys" out of the loop since they would have had to be trained by the "original three".

 

They use unpublished standards, grade by committee and how they feel that day. And when you argue with them it's one (You) versus them three (3). If the book did get regraded and came back higher would Luckystiff be upset that CGC undergraded it the first time? Or should the real issue be why does CGC feel it's a good versus Harley thinking it's a VG+. Both have opinions and BOTH opinions count.

[jimm94]

I feel that Harley is entitled to his opinion whether or not he bought it slabbed. If he did know it was previously in a 2.0 holder, he is under no obligation to disclose CGC's previous assessment, although I grant that is a pretty big difference of opinion!

 

Having said that, I personally would not grade the book VG+ based on the scan. Assuming that the stains have no trace of mold, and do not penetrate through the entire book, the highest I think I would give it would be 3.0. Again, this is just an estimate without examining the book in-hand.

 

And, no, I don't think I'm a better grader than Harley or CGC.

[Ron_Nasty]

Sure, dry clean right through the cover

 

A little bit of bleach should do it, and some ammonia.

[blazingbob]

So whip out the Overstreet grading standard on a VG+ and state why it shouldn't be a VG+. That's how it should work. However, you can't whip out the CGC grading standards and dispute their grade. You can call and listen to them tell you why "they" feel it's a GD.

 

Subjectivity is a lame excuse for Nobody requiring "Advisor's" to get certified training before handing out their little pictures in the Overstreet Price guide.

[burntboy]

-- knowing that if the person gets it slabbed, it will come back a 2.0

 

How do you know it would come back a 2.0?

 

well Tom, how would YOU grade this book? (i'll ask Bob Storms the same question).

 

lot's of deep spine stress marks, major grouping of readers creases just off the spine, major waviness to much of the cover, 6 BIGA$$ DARK Waterstains split between the front and back covers, etc.. do either of you truly believe this book could be a 4.5?? (like you both seem to be implying as a possibility..........)

 

I doubt it - just playing Devil's advocate, i guess???

[DiceX]

So you are basically in the camp that CGC can grade, dealers cannot.

 

I've bought from Harley, so I have no problem with that comment.

[jbud73]

I feel that Harley is entitled to his opinion whether or not he bought it slabbed. If he did know it was previously in a 2.0 holder, he is under no obligation to disclose CGC's previous assessment, although I grant that is a pretty big difference of opinion!

 

Having said that, I personally would not grade the book VG+ based on the scan. Assuming that the stains have no trace of mold, and do not penetrate through the entire book, the highest I think I would give it would be 3.0. Again, this is just an estimate without examining the book in-hand.

 

And, no, I don't think I'm a better grader than Harley or CGC.

 

See Jim I disagree with the statement that he is under no obligation. If we crtiticize CGC for not disclosing grading standards - which I construe as them NOT standing behing their product and consistency of their graders. I also feel that Harley should stand behing his credentials if he truly feels its a VG+. Both positions in this instance smell of hypocrisy.

 

As for the book itself - I would be very surprised if the stains from looking at that scan do not penetrate the inside cover and, or portions of the book itself. Was that the only scan on the auction, I haven't checked?

[jbud73]

-- knowing that if the person gets it slabbed, it will come back a 2.0

 

How do you know it would come back a 2.0?

 

well Tom, how would YOU grade this book? (i'll ask Bob Storms the same question).

 

lot's of deep spine stress marks, major grouping of readers creases just off the spine, major waviness to much of the cover, 6 BIGA$$ DARK Waterstains split between the front and back covers, etc.. do either of you truly believe this book could be a 4.5?? (like you both seem to be implying as a possibility..........)

 

I doubt it - just playing Devil's advocate, i guess???

 

Harry I can sum up what you're really thinking. That VG+ is a POS compared to my book. Or, if thats a VG+ then mines a VF+

[Foolkiller]

I don't disagree with that point. But I'm looking at this issue globally. It's not a question of who's right or who's wrong about their grading abilities, but if the book was bought with the idea of, well, I can take the comic out of the slab, crack it, and inflate the grade because it could pass for a VG+ on ebay, then that's deceitful. THAT's what I have a problem with. Of course I'm never going to know if that's REALLY true, but I have a hard time believing that a dealer with the experience of Harley, who people praise as being accurate, (no doubt because have had books slabbed and they've come back near or above as advertised in comparative CGC grade) suddenly saw this beat up, water stained book and said, oh yeah, that's a VG+, especially if he saw the book in the slab or with the label.

 

I'm probably being too hard on Harley here, but I really believe that there's something here that just doesn't smell right. However, without actual evidence, perhaps I was too hasty in passing judgment as to what Harely's "intent" was.

 

So whip out the Overstreet grading standard on a VG+ and state why it shouldn't be a VG+. That's how it should work. However, you can't whip out the CGC grading standards and dispute their grade. You can call and listen to them tell you why "they" feel it's a GD.

 

Subjectivity is a lame excuse for Nobody requiring "Advisor's" to get certified training before handing out their little pictures in the Overstreet Price guide.

[burntboy]

I feel that Harley is entitled to his opinion whether or not he bought it slabbed. If he did know it was previously in a 2.0 holder, he is under no obligation to disclose CGC's previous assessment, although I grant that is a pretty big difference of opinion!

 

Having said that, I personally would not grade the book VG+ based on the scan. Assuming that the stains have no trace of mold, and do not penetrate through the entire book, the highest I think I would give it would be 3.0. Again, this is just an estimate without examining the book in-hand.

 

And, no, I don't think I'm a better grader than Harley or CGC.

 

See Jim I disagree with the statement that he is under no obligation. If we crtiticize CGC for not disclosing grading standards - which I construe as them NOT standing behing their product and consistency of their graders. I also feel that Harley should stand behing his credentials if he truly feels its a VG+. Both positions in this instance smell of hypocrisy.

 

As for the book itself - I would be very surprised if the stains from looking at that scan do not penetrate the inside cover and, or portions of the book itself. Was that the only scan on the auction, I haven't checked?

 

i was surprised given the size and visual impact of the stains (and the fact that all three big stains are on the FC and BC in the same place) that the stains didn't go thru the book, but luckystiff has confirmed that they don't.. BUT, i concur that they almost certainly have to be visible on the inside covers which just brings the grade down further.

 

i wouldn't think that this book could grade at a 4.5 with just one of those ugly waterstains in conjunction with the rest of it's ills, let alone six of them!!!!!.

 

in overstreets first grading guide he shows an example of a book that dropped 2 FULL points (otherwise 6.5 dropping to a 4.5) for a single example of "minor water damage at corner"). what the hell would 6 instances of significant water damage drop a book???

 

and i'm not saying that CGC is the GOD of grading, but if any dealer out there tried to fleece me for the thousands extra this book would bring in 4.5, i would NEVER deal with them again...........that's my opinion and i'm sticking to it (for now, at least ).

[rjpb]

I haven't bought anything from Harley in the last several years, but I'm surprised he would consider a book with that much water damage a VG+, but water stains are one of the more highly subjective flaws, like sun and dust shadows, foxing or rusty staples, that there seems to be less of a consensus on than other more structural flaws. I'm guessing had this book never been slabbed, and was offered for the first time as a G/VG, few would

be objecting to the grade.

[jimm94]

Hey Jbud,

 

I see your point, but I'm not in the camp that criticizes CGC for not having a published grading manifesto. Their standards are primarily OS, with a few exceptions and caveats that have been discussed previously on the boards. There's nothing too secretive or magical about their grading, IMO. The problem occurs when collectors become overly reliant and place too high of an importance on CGC's opinion.

[luckystiff-migration]

OK-This comic was graded in oct 04.

The graders told me they had considered the book a 3.0 but the main grader went 2.0 because of the stains. there was no wavyness to it at all-very flat book. the stains were only of the cover. The covers at the staples we're not torn either.

Yeah...

i sold the book on comiclink in nNovember-so the buyer was anonomous.

I think I would be peeved if i thought it was graded wrong-but I don't know anything about comics so i took their word-plus it was all free money to me-(although I could always use MORE free money! )

[blazingbob]

Really, their changing grading standards have been discussed? Please point me in the direction so I can keep up with the CGC grading standards. Everytime I think I have them down they tighten or loosen the screw a bit.

 

With 5 years of grading under their belt I'm not sure if CGC is tightening their grading or setting the hobby up for 5 years of cracking out and regrading Phase 2 of the master plan?

[luckystiff-migration]

Please keep in mind-I don't collect-have sold the book and have no reason to brag the condition up on the book. and relied on cgc as someone that didnt want to sell the book on speculative description-as a matter of honesty.

I do agree with footkiller's take on this from my totally unknowledgeable prospective-

[FFB]

What happened to grading is subjective? What if Harley resubbed this book today and it graded 4.5? It's not like we have never seen that before.

 

Looks like someone cleaned the book as well.

 

Why do you think it was cleaned, Tom? It looks exactly like it did the first time.

 

I agree with your point about grading being subjective to a point, but I don't think that water staining like that (along with the multiple creases running parallel to the spine) are allowed in Overstreet standards for VG or VG+. Structurally it looks like a VG/FN or even a FN-, but the staining is a killer and it's all over the book.