Journey Into Mystery #65 - Different 10c Price Sizes ? 0

[Get Marwood & I]

Just a point that may be helpful if not already posted. If Atlas/Marvel already had the distribution deal in place for England, it would have been simple to overprinting the color covers in 4/C and then split print the cheaper B/W backs , most for America with the regular indicate, and a second batch exactly the same with the extra paragraph below it. No extra printing costs this way, just paper, which is cheapest.

 

This explains the books with and without the extra British distrib paragraph that have the same 10c on the cover

 

Im trying to understand the other issues, why there are different 10c looks. I can't think of any reason why American copies would have been printed twice... And even if they were, the 10c would not change unless it fell off and a new typeset 10c was replaced in a different font out of sheer indifference.

 

Unless they were printed in a different market, fronts and backs, and Atlas sent stats (or negatives) to other licensed publishers with the prices removed (just empty area where the US 10c was) ...Then, In the case of countries that also use 10c pricing but received a blank price materials to print from, they would have had to typeset it again, maybe in whatever font they had access to.

 

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy the speculation, but until someone who worked on the presses comes forward that may well be all we'll be able to do. One theory I have is that copies may have been run off without a price plate in error, say at the start of the run. When this was noticed, a price plate was added and the run continued. Rather than destroy the unpriced copies, maybe they were hand / machined stamped with a different font stamp? When I look at the TTA 16, the 'tall' font looks like part of the overall print. The 'short' font looks like it was added. It's really difficult to tell without the books being in hand. Scans never do it justice.

[Get Marwood & I]

This is great thread.

 

CG at its best.

 

Let's hope someone can shed more light on this. I have never heard anyone talk about this before so it may be a significant discovery

 

Cheers - glad people are liking the thread. As it stands, they are two elements emerging:

 

1. Font Variations on US Cents copies (JIM 65 / TTA 16 so far)

2. UK indicia data (Thorp & Porter / L Miller) on US Cents copies (spotted by EwanUK)

 

Font Variations:

 

I have an updated table for TTA 16 but Photobucket is down so can't add it. I plan to keep looking and will build up a table of where this occurs

 

UK Indicia Data:

 

I have a Gunsmoke Western due and have asked some ebayers to check their copies. Will report back to see if any do not have the L Miller line

 

I'll keep summarising in chart form when I get the time as it's easier to read.

 

All good fun guys

 

 

[Aman619]

Just a point that may be helpful if not already posted. If Atlas/Marvel already had the distribution deal in place for England, it would have been simple to overprinting the color covers in 4/C and then split print the cheaper B/W backs , most for America with the regular indicate, and a second batch exactly the same with the extra paragraph below it. No extra printing costs this way, just paper, which is cheapest.

 

This explains the books with and without the extra British distrib paragraph that have the same 10c on the cover

 

Im trying to understand the other issues, why there are different 10c looks. I can't think of any reason why American copies would have been printed twice... And even if they were, the 10c would not change unless it fell off and a new typeset 10c was replaced in a different font out of sheer indifference.

 

Unless they were printed in a different market, fronts and backs, and Atlas sent stats (or negatives) to other licensed publishers with the prices removed (just empty area where the US 10c was) ...Then, In the case of countries that also use 10c pricing but received a blank price materials to print from, they would have had to typeset it again, maybe in whatever font they had access to.

 

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy the speculation, but until someone who worked on the presses comes forward that may well be all we'll be able to do. One theory I have is that copies may have been run off without a price plate in error, say at the start of the run. When this was noticed, a price plate was added and the run continued. Rather than destroy the unpriced copies, maybe they were hand / machined stamped with a different font stamp? When I look at the TTA 16, the 'tall' font looks like part of the overall print. The 'short' font looks like it was added. It's really difficult to tell without the books being in hand. Scans never do it justice.

 

Interesting. In what way do you think some prices were added afterwards? Are you seeing something in the scans? I'd think on a print run of even 100k and I'm guessing the numbers were higher back then, that's a lot of hand stamping that would be more expensive than running the uncut sheets back thru the press's to surprint black prices. I suppose if the printer messed up, they might choose to fix it that way if Atlas had enough leverage to force the issue..

[Get Marwood & I]

Just a point that may be helpful if not already posted. If Atlas/Marvel already had the distribution deal in place for England, it would have been simple to overprinting the color covers in 4/C and then split print the cheaper B/W backs , most for America with the regular indicate, and a second batch exactly the same with the extra paragraph below it. No extra printing costs this way, just paper, which is cheapest.

 

This explains the books with and without the extra British distrib paragraph that have the same 10c on the cover

 

Im trying to understand the other issues, why there are different 10c looks. I can't think of any reason why American copies would have been printed twice... And even if they were, the 10c would not change unless it fell off and a new typeset 10c was replaced in a different font out of sheer indifference.

 

Unless they were printed in a different market, fronts and backs, and Atlas sent stats (or negatives) to other licensed publishers with the prices removed (just empty area where the US 10c was) ...Then, In the case of countries that also use 10c pricing but received a blank price materials to print from, they would have had to typeset it again, maybe in whatever font they had access to.

 

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy the speculation, but until someone who worked on the presses comes forward that may well be all we'll be able to do. One theory I have is that copies may have been run off without a price plate in error, say at the start of the run. When this was noticed, a price plate was added and the run continued. Rather than destroy the unpriced copies, maybe they were hand / machined stamped with a different font stamp? When I look at the TTA 16, the 'tall' font looks like part of the overall print. The 'short' font looks like it was added. It's really difficult to tell without the books being in hand. Scans never do it justice.

 

Interesting. In what way do you think some prices were added afterwards? Are you seeing something in the scans? I'd think on a print run of even 100k and I'm guessing the numbers were higher back then, that's a lot of hand stamping that would be more expensive than running the uncut sheets back thru the press's to surprint black prices. I suppose if the printer messed up, they might choose to fix it that way if Atlas had enough leverage to force the issue..

 

If you look at the TTA 16 images the 'Short Font' 10c looks less clean than the 'Tall Font'. It has slightly blurry edges which sometimes appear when you hand stamp. The Thorpe & Porter stamp was hand applied - that's never in the same place - so the size of the task might not be a barrier. It's all speculation though - I don't fully trust scans, and plan to look at every copy I can in the flesh. See next post!

[Get Marwood & I]

 

Ok guys, this is getting spooky. If you check the updated table below you’ll see that we now have 3 distinct 10c font variations for JIM 65. The tall font version has a T&P indicia line. No pence copy has been found:

 

 

…and three versions of Strange Tales #81 - Pence copy, ‘Fat Font' 10c copy and ‘Tall Font' 10c copy which has the T&P indicia line:

 

 

….and here is the latest TTA 16 table. Three confirmed variants and it’s looking like all cents copies have the T&P indicia line. I have one T&P indicia scan for the ‘Tall Font’ 10c, 2 ebayers saying their Tall Font 10c copies have it, and one saying her ‘Short Font’ 10c copy has it:

 

 

So it looks like Feb 1961 is a good month for variant collectors!

 

Wouldn’t it be bizarre if we discovered that there were multiple printings? Pretty significant implications for keys I would imagine. I wish we had a board member who worked on the presses, or knows someone who did. There's enough evidence here to prove that something happened during the printing process, for this month at least.

 

I'll keep digging - I plan to look at other months to see whether Feb 61 was a blip

 

[Get Marwood & I]

 

I think you're onto something here. I saw your Gunsmoke variant in the other post and have been pondering it. What is odd is that it's indicia says L Miller , not Thorpe & Porter. All online evidence suggests that Miller only did reprints and T & P were the sole distributors of Marvel originals. I'm planning to do some investigating on this and will report back. What is clear is that, as long as there is a cents priced Gunsmoke 63 without the L Miller indicia, then we have identified a new strand of variant. The debate would have to be what we call them . Really interesting stuff and, with the JIM example, a potential load of under the radar variants. I'll see what I can find out.

 

Thanks. It is definitely a newly discovered variant.

But yes, has anyone got another GS no.63 to show the indicia pls?

L Miller / T&P / Alan Class all shared printing and distribution resources over the 1950s and early 1960s. However, it is a good point. Unfortunately this is the only example I've seen so far - but I recall seeing stickered 9d cents comics previously.

 

Here's a table for Gunsmoke Western 63, I ordered a cheap copy from a UK dealer and, as you can see, my 10c copy has the L Miller Indicia too. I contacted a US ebayer (DTA Collectibles) and they advised their 10c copy did NOT have the additional L Miller line. So, whilst I haven't seen a scan, our copies do appear to be variants. What is puzzling is that the date - March 1961 - is after we started getting 9d printed prices. Gunsmoke Western #58 has a printed 9d price so why would an L Miller 10c copy exist of #63, especially when T&P did the importing and L Miller only did repacakaged reprint titles?

 

Very odd.

 

I can't see any font variations though Ewan:

 

[EwanUK]

Fantastic summaries "Dog" (have you a real name?)

 

Can of worms opening,,,

 

JIM 65 - could the "wonky" font just be bad printing? I don't know enough about techniques from those days but assume the plates (?) could slip slightly?

 

I do have another issue I saw with UK indicia, but for the life of me can't find the image. Pretty sure it was an early TOS with brown cover. Will keep looking.

 

GW 65 - font - I don't think that line through the "10c" is a spine tic, I think it's that the font is poorly printed. But yes, other than that the font is the same

 

loving this investigation - has anyone else got original owner copies of these books, UK or USA?

[EwanUK]

Random thought: in 1961 would we still be hosting American troops in bases?

 

Assume American periodicals were imported?

 

Could these by a reason for the hybrids? (Hey "hybrid variant" - good name?)

[Get Marwood & I]

 

Would you believe it, next parcel arrives and in it we have a Gunsmoke #60. Note:

 

- 10c Copy

- L Miller internal Indicia

- L Miller cover stamp of 6d (when 9d was the price of the time)

 

 

Google tells us that L Miller did Western reprints only but, as this copy and the #63 show, they clearly did US original imports too.

 

So many questions. Why print an L Miller indicia line but not a pence price? Why 6d and not 9d? How does this sit with Thorpe & Porter being the 'sole importer of Marvel comics'? Marvels banner did not appear until Jun 1961 so maybe L Miller had a deal with Atlas (or whoever was in charge then - Atlas allegedly being defunct in 1957).

 

So, subject to physical confirmation that 10c copies exist without the L Miller indicia line (see previous post) a new line for pence variant collectors to pursue. Good luck and patience will they need....

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Fantastic summaries "Dog" (have you a real name?)

 

Can of worms opening,,,

 

JIM 65 - could the "wonky" font just be bad printing? I don't know enough about techniques from those days but assume the plates (?) could slip slightly?

 

I do have another issue I saw with UK indicia, but for the life of me can't find the image. Pretty sure it was an early TOS with brown cover. Will keep looking.

 

GW 65 - font - I don't think that line through the "10c" is a spine tic, I think it's that the font is poorly printed. But yes, other than that the font is the same

 

loving this investigation - has anyone else got original owner copies of these books, UK or USA?

 

Woof! Real name is Steve. Hello Ewan.

 

If the JIM 'wonky' font was caused by plate slipping, wouldn't other bits slip too? Odd that the copy I got the scan from was in Canada.

 

Glad you're loving the posts. I'm sitting here with a pile of old beat up comics looking for anomalies. What else can we do on a Saturday?

[Get Marwood & I]

Would you believe it, next parcel arrives and in it we have a Gunsmoke #60. Note:

 

- 10c Copy

- L Miller internal Indicia

- L Miller cover stamp of 6d (when 9d was the price of the time)

 

 

Google tells us that L Miller did Western reprints only but, as this copy and the #63 show, they clearly did US original imports too.

 

So many questions. Why print an L Miller indicia line but not a pence price? Why 6d and not 9d? How does this sit with Thorpe & Porter being the 'sole importer of Marvel comics'? Marvels banner did not appear until Jun 1961 so maybe L Miller had a deal with Atlas (or whoever was in charge then - Atlas allegedly being defunct in 1957).

 

So, subject to physical confirmation that 10c copies exist without the L Miller indicia line (see previous post) a new line for pence variant collectors to pursue. Good luck and patience will they need....

 

Gunsmoke Western #58 May 1960 - 9d printed price and an L Miller Indicia:

 

 

Help!

 

[EwanUK]

Amazing...

 

So many variants now the mind-boggles

 

However, proven that my GW 63 spot was certainly not a one-off

Perhaps it was only Westerns? L Miller perhaps had some special arrangement?

 

The L Miller text looks like it has been added later, printed on later, or stamped on?

 

thanks Steve

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Amazing...

 

So many variants now the mind-boggles

 

However, proven that my GW 63 spot was certainly not a one-off

Perhaps it was only Westerns? L Miller perhaps had some special arrangement?

 

The L Miller text looks like it has been added later, printed on later, or stamped on?

 

thanks Steve

 

 

On my GW 58, 60 and 63 all three L Miller indicia lines look like they're part of the original print. I think it may be just Westerns, as you say, as this follows the online info for L Miller.

 

Here's a scan of Patsy & Hedy #71 - Aug 1960 - which is slap in the middle of the 3 GW dates and it's indicia has Thorpe & Porter:

 

 

So this tells us that while T&P were importing Marvel originals with 9d stamps from May 1960, they weren't the only ones. L Miller were doing it too for titles that would become Marvel titles.

 

Yikes.

[Get Marwood & I]

My Girl Pearl #7 Aug 1960 with T&P indicia:

 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Kid Colt Outlaw #97, Mar 1961 with T&P indicia:

 

 

L Miller didn't get this Western title then..........

[Get Marwood & I]

 

Font Variations

 

Ok, last post of new stuff from me today - a table showing JIM #60, September 1960. This shows that there are font variations for a month other than February 1961 (re earlier posts). I have captured multiple examples of each and the 'White Box' ones are not stickers:

 

 

I also checked multiple covers of JIM 66 and 68 and found no differences. That said, there are clear and evident differences in pricing fonts for the early Marvels I've posted so far and, possibly, many others. I won't hunt for any more just for now - there's enough here to make the case. What we need is an expert to explain why the differences exist and any implications. I for one would love to hear it.

 

Hope someone dips in with some info at some point. In the meantime, let's speculate

 

 

[VintageComics]

Fascinating.

 

Even more fascinating is that the differences seem to be mostly relegated to Timely / Atlas / Marvel so far.

 

I know this is mostly a discussion about UK variants but it might shed some light on how / when / why there are so many differences because from Marvel #1 in 1939, through the Atlas copies we're posting Marvel always seemed to have a large variance in the price department.

 

Heck they even continued it with the BA price variants in test markets.

 

The only DC variants I know of are a few GA issues that were market at $0.15 for the Canadian markets rather than $0.10 for US markets.

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Fascinating.

 

Even more fascinating is that the differences seem to be mostly relegated to Timely / Atlas / Marvel so far.

 

I know this is mostly a discussion about UK variants but it might shed some light on how / when / why there are so many differences because from Marvel #1 in 1939, through the Atlas copies we're posting Marvel always seemed to have a large variance in the price department.

 

Heck they even continued it with the BA price variants in test markets.

 

The only DC variants I know of are a few GA issues that were market at $0.15 for the Canadian markets rather than $0.10 for US markets.

 

 

Thanks for commenting - this post has two elements so far - Marvel Cents copies with UK indicia data and Marvel Cents copy Font Variants. I know I said I wouldn't add anymore today but here's three more:

 

 

Do you or any of your contacts know why these separate versions exist? I can't imagine how they could all be first printings from the same US printing presses? Why would they change the font midway through if the price is the same?

 

If they were done at different times, or on different presses, then which came first and does that mean we should be assessing one of them as a second printing?

 

Could the 'white box' ones have been printed blank during the original run and then the price added later?

 

Should I go and lay down in a dark room?

 

 

 

[Aman619]

heres another idea. Ive never really pondered much (Pinky!) about the white price rectangles on PreHero covers, but, seeing all the different price treatments I can add this: anytime the price is "knocked out" of a color area, its going to be the "first" printing. Thats because when they create the film and later from artwork and color separations, they are prepared to place the price anywhere and "knock" it out of whichever color plates are necessary.

 

But, if you were to use the same separations or plates AGAIN later on, and had to make changes, say to the price, you would mask out (with a clean or not so clean rectangled area (in these cases the size and in the location of the existing price) so that you can add the new price to the black plate, and it will print as so many of these comics exhibit.

 

That means that many of our boxed 10c copies may not be first printings that somehow made their way back to america and into our collections.

 

This doesn't apply to prices that are on white bonds, because these can easily and cheaply be stripped off and replaced on the black plates.

 

 

also, it shows the lack of respect for funny books that they rarely cared to create clean rectangles, some look like they just painted/masked a shape large enough to cover the original 10C price area...

 

 

if these variants are international in explanation, which countries also use a C for cents or other currency?

 

[Aman619]

I looked at my unslabbed PreHeros... seems this all took place in a period just before the large circled 10 cent prices appeared.. I think the basic USA Atlas price looks like the image below...

 

I found quite a few issues with this "normal" price, all had Printed in USA and no mention of anyone other than Vista Publishing or other Goodman trade names companies.

 

But when the price had a rounder c after 10 they each had the last line of the indicia stating Thorpe and Porter. I don't have any 9D pence copies, or the ones that state Thorpe and Porter large below the USA indicia.

 

 

also, some with the rounder c were in white boxes, and others were on the colored art, meaning the covers were re-printed in entirety... so, I still dont have an answer for that without some understanding of how Atlas distributed and licensed their books back then,

Edited November 6, 2016 by aman619