Shill Alert2....

[mcd-migration]

Moreover, the issue of shilling is not as black and white as some think. The idea that shilling is always stealing is absurd. In this case it is certainly not stealing. Not right, probably, but not stealing.

 

If your going to make excuses for FD then there is a huge list of ebay shillers that have been dragged through the mud that deserve the same respect. I understand that FD has a large number of friends on the board that are willing to shove it under the rug, but they are the same ones who go on the attack when some less know member is caught. Very similar how Lighthouse is welcomed back with open arms by the boards after ripping off a large group of members. Yes, friends are friends, but some people should get out of the attack mode if they are not going to apply it to everyone equally.

[whomerjay]

To lump everyone badly disappointed with the one or two whack jobs is silly.

 

And frankly,..you lost me with this one.

 

"Moreover, the issue of shilling is not as black and white as some think. The idea that shilling is always stealing is absurd. In this case it is certainly not stealing. Not right, probably, but not stealing. "

 

 

Do you care to point out exactly where I lump those who are "dissapointed" with "two whack jobs"? Several have posted expressing disappointment without being jerks/Tartuffes.

 

Moreover, the issue of shilling is not as black and white as some think. The idea that shilling is always stealing is absurd. In this case it is certainly not stealing. Not right, probably, but not stealing. "

 

Do you care to point out how you find this point screwy? After reading through most of this thread I found several others making the same point.

[Mithril Man]

I thought the problem with shilling is that it allows a seller to set a de facto reserve on a book without paying eBay the reserve fee of a buck or two. In other words, it is "eBay Reserve Fee Avoidance,"

 

I don't think people normally shill to avoid eBay reserve fees, they shill to entice people to bid higher.

 

The number one way to get a higher price on your auction is to draw visitors to your auction. Subsequently, the best way to do that is to start your bidding at a very low price with no reserve. This draws visits. The more visits - the higher winning bid normally.

 

That is why I start my auctions at a penny. I do not shill for two reasons: 1) it's pretty intuitive that it is unethical (not to mention against the rules, and beginning to get looked at in the court of law Lawsuit )2)this is what works best for me: I don't list on Ebay much, but when I do I try and list 10 items at one time. I start them all very low. I have an idea of what they cost me as a GROUP - then at the end of the auctions I add up what they brought as a GROUP and subtract fees. On every 10 auctions I run I will lose money on 1 or 2 of them and make money on 8 of them. Overall it will be a positive net. I've never lost money on anything if I focus on the group of items, so I don't have to worry about individual auctions.

 

I wouldn't want FD to leave the boards either; certainly he is a resource in this field. We all make mistakes, and it's just a funny book forum after all. (Although I still think it's funny that he called me out for CGC keyword spamming as a newbie.... )

[Excelsior!-migration]

Moreover, the issue of shilling is not as black and white as some think. The idea that shilling is always stealing is absurd. In this case it is certainly not stealing. Not right, probably, but not stealing.

 

If your going to make excuses for FD then there is a huge list of ebay shillers that have been dragged through the mud that deserve the same respect. I understand that FD has a large number of friends on the board that are willing to shove it under the rug, but they are the same ones who go on the attack when some less know member is caught. Very similar how Lighthouse is welcomed back with open arms by the boards after ripping off a large group of members. Yes, friends are friends, but some people should get out of the attack mode if they are not going to apply it to everyone equally.

 

From the outside looking in it definitely appears to be a double standard going on here. If you are a newbie and/or you are not as well connected with the elite inner circle of CGC posters the mods basically back off of an let the wolfpack feed (i.e. see the start of this thread). However, if one of the elite is found to be a lying fake and fraud (i.e. flying-donut and lighthouse) the inner circle and the CGC mods circle the wagons and protect their own and overlook any misdeeds and gladly welcome the cheats back into the pack. Bunch of hypocrites! Lets see how the next person who isn't in the inner circle who is found to be a cheat or an ebay shiller gets treated. I bet the kid gloves will be off.

[whomerjay]

Moreover, the issue of shilling is not as black and white as some think. The idea that shilling is always stealing is absurd. In this case it is certainly not stealing. Not right, probably, but not stealing.

 

If your going to make excuses for FD then there is a huge list of ebay shillers that have been dragged through the mud that deserve the same respect. I understand that FD has a large number of friends on the board that are willing to shove it under the rug, but they are the same ones who go on the attack when some less know member is caught. Very similar how Lighthouse is welcomed back with open arms by the boards after ripping off a large group of members. Yes, friends are friends, but some people should get out of the attack mode if they are not going to apply it to everyone equally.

 

I can accept that. I was never one to initiate or perpetuate viscous attacks on people's character over shilling. Don't like shilling but I won't become a pit bull over it.

 

Last year I bid on an auction by a Board member. I was outbid and within 5 min of the auction ending received an eamil from the seller offering the CGC book as a second chance offer. I emailed back asking why the offer and he responded the high bidder didn't want it. I analyzed the "high bidder" and concluded he was shilling the bid. I sent him an email telling him that I did not have 100% proof, but was pretty convinced he shilled the auction, that I would therefore pass. I told him because he was a CGC board member with a good rep, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and just drop the issue.

 

I never heard back from him.

 

Now some here would argue I should have outed this guy and saved the community the risk of ever having to deal with him. I have more important things to do with my life than to initiate a mob attack over a mistake that I'll bet that seller won't commit again. If I had noticed he continued to shill, this would constitute justification for alerting of a systematic hosing of buyers.

[Red Hook]

Now might be a good time to get educated on Ebay's policy regarding Shill Bidding

 

Short version: "Shill bidding undermines trust in our community and is not permitted on eBay."

[ArAich]

Do I want to read this thread???...

[rob_react]

Lets see how the next person who isn't in the inner circle who is found to be a cheat or an ebay shiller gets treated. I bet the kid gloves will be off.

 

Yes, because this thread was a model of restraint.

[Excelsior!-migration]

Now some here would argue I should have outed this guy and saved the community the risk of ever having to deal with him.

 

I guarantee you would have been chased from these boards like the newbie who started this thread if you outed him. Then after what you said was found to be true none of the people that attacked you would apoligize and they would still defend their cheating pal.

[Sal]

if you can't see the difference between wanting to forgive somebody that a community has a long history with and a person noone knows a single thing about, then i'm afraid no explanation is going to help you

[Excelsior!-migration]

Lets see how the next person who isn't in the inner circle who is found to be a cheat or an ebay shiller gets treated. I bet the kid gloves will be off.

 

Yes, because this thread was a model of restraint.

 

Yes, it has been a model of restraint for most of the inner circle of the posting elite who would normally be all over a proven ebay shiller. The silience is deafening from the posting elite except for a few brave souls that were willing to cross the line and call a spade a spade. They of course are now scorned and won't be allowed to be part of the group while FD and Lighthouse are already being welcomed back with open arms from those same posting elite.

[Excelsior!-migration]

if you can't see the difference between wanting to forgive somebody that a community has a long history with and a person noone knows a single thing about, then i'm afraid no explanation is going to help you

 

Someone with a long history should actually be held to a much higher standard and treated more harshly because he violated the groups trust IMHO. Just like a bad cop or anyone else who is a position of public trust should have to pay a bigger price than the common man.

[drbanner]

if you can't see the difference between wanting to forgive somebody that a community has a long history with and a person noone knows a single thing about, then i'm afraid no explanation is going to help you

 

Someone with a long history should actually be held to a much higher standard and treated more harshly because he violated the groups trust IMHO. Just like a bad cop or anyone else who is a position of public trust should have to pay a bigger price than the common man.

 

If your mother slapped your face would you treat her the same as someone you didn't know who slapped your face? I didn't think so...

[Excelsior!-migration]

if you can't see the difference between wanting to forgive somebody that a community has a long history with and a person noone knows a single thing about, then i'm afraid no explanation is going to help you

 

Someone with a long history should actually be held to a much higher standard and treated more harshly because he violated the groups trust IMHO. Just like a bad cop or anyone else who is a position of public trust should have to pay a bigger price than the common man.

 

If your mother slapped your face would you treat her the same as someone you didn't know who slapped your face? I didn't think so...

 

If your best friend did the horizontal dance with your wife would you treat him the same as someone you didn't know? I don't think so...

[Foolkiller]

Well, this obviously didn't die out. I really didn't think it would.

 

Nobody is saying, or has said, who has defended Donut, that what he did wasn't ethically wrong. Nobody has said, well, he's a member of the inner circle, so he gets a pass. Where was that said? Where are people getting this?

 

It is not a problem of voicing your displeasure to Donut. You want to tell him that what he did was wrong, no problem. I don't really believe that anyone here is going to tell you that what he did was ok. The shilling and then the subsequent lying are problematic.

 

But the difference between Donut and nameless seller (x) that we go after is that Donut IS a member of this community and you have to weigh a totality of the acts.

Someone gave the example of a cop who did something wrong. Well, depending on the act guess what? Normally, they are somewhat protected if they have years and years of good service. They take a bribe? Normally they will get better treatment? If they committ a homicide or a rape, well, then it doesn't matter. What Donut did was a very small transgression on the scale of things. It is serious, and should be taken seriously, but this thread took on a more bitter tone at first, and that's all I ever objected to.

 

I think most people want to give Donut a second chance because his good actions outweigh his bad ones. We don't have that opportunity to view the good in other people the forum has gone after.

 

As for Lighthouse, I am not one of the people welcoming him back with open arms. His transgression was far greater in scope. However -- he is doing what he can to make things right again. Slowly, and the test of time will tell the tale, but I can truly say that if he does so, then I think even for him we should be willing to be forgiving as well.

[Red Hook]

Look, I myself questioned dm226's initial posts on this matter because he offered up a scenario without providing links and was begging to be "forced" to provide the name of the person board member he was referring too. He also claimed to have met the board member.

 

I'm still not convinced that dm226 isn't just a shill account for a regular here. But he was not so much "attacked" as he was questioned over his motivations and the fact that he provided no concrete evidence. Once he did, you will notice the mood shifted.

 

Like it or not, FD does have a track record here. At this point, I am of the opinion that the shilling incidents discovered are not part of some wide spread plan of shilling. But I also think they are not to be dismissed. Shilling is a form of theft of funds. Ebay does not allow it. It was wrong, and I do believe that the woman who won the tickets paid more than she might have had to. These are not victimless crimes.

 

I do not want to get into telling FD what he should or should not have done. I hope he gets it. If he doesn't, then nothing anyone says here that will change that. He may feel he didn't do anything wrong. Each one of the folks here will make a personal decision whether to bid on his auctions or not. I also want to add that my posting of the "Freaky Links" was not out of some personal animosity towards FD, .....I just like to put puzzle pieces together. If I'd found material that cleared FD, I would have posted it just as fast. As a matter of fact, I've gone through a lot of his auctions results.....most of his auctions are small, $3 to $10 auctions. I have not found any evidence of direct shilling in any of these. And yes, I have way too much time on my hands.

 

I think the biggest problem with the boards is not the "witch hunts" or the detecting or the tough treatment of newbies. It's the shills that are here all the time, and keep coming. To disrupt, to incite and to add nothing. MMMarvelous is just the latest iteration of this. I think Arch is the best moderator we could ever ask for. But I just wish he gave these a little less rope.

 

In closing, I want to say that I admit it, I am an idealist. I like to think that most of the folks here are of slightly higher than average moral fiber. These boards are certainly the center of one of the most knowledgable, funny and generous bunch of guys and gals I've ever run into. I guess I've come to hold us to a higher standard of behavior, because we know better. Or should.

 

 

Red Hook

[Excelsior!-migration]

Well, this obviously didn't die out. I really didn't think it would.

 

Nobody is saying, or has said, who has defended Donut, that what he did wasn't ethically wrong. Nobody has said, well, he's a member of the inner circle, so he gets a pass. Where was that said? Where are people getting this?

 

It is not a problem of voicing your displeasure to Donut. You want to tell him that what he did was wrong, no problem. I don't really believe that anyone here is going to tell you that what he did was ok. The shilling and then the subsequent lying are problematic.

 

But the difference between Donut and nameless seller (x) that we go after is that Donut IS a member of this community and you have to weigh a totality of the acts.

Someone gave the example of a cop who did something wrong. Well, depending on the act guess what? Normally, they are somewhat protected if they have years and years of good service. They take a bribe? Normally they will get better treatment? If they committ a homicide or a rape, well, then it doesn't matter. What Donut did was a very small transgression on the scale of things. It is serious, and should be taken seriously, but this thread took on a more bitter tone at first, and that's all I ever objected to.

 

I think most people want to give Donut a second chance because his good actions outweigh his bad ones. We don't have that opportunity to view the good in other people the forum has gone after.

 

As for Lighthouse, I am not one of the people welcoming him back with open arms. His transgression was far greater in scope. However -- he is doing what he can to make things right again. Slowly, and the test of time will tell the tale, but I can truly say that if he does so, then I think even for him we should be willing to be forgiving as well.

 

From what I understand Lighthouse has given money back or the comics owed to the people who dealt with him. Did FD give the person who won the baseball tickets back the $50 that he shilled up the auction? Seems to me Lighthouse has at least tried to make things right although in a very slow way. What has FD done besides give an apology where he is trying to make himself out as a victim?

[Red Hook]

And for the record Excel, I was of the opinion that KiltKid get a second chance too, after he admitted to shilling. But not a third.

[Sal]

if you can't see the difference between wanting to forgive somebody that a community has a long history with and a person noone knows a single thing about, then i'm afraid no explanation is going to help you

 

 

again...

[Foolkiller]

you have no idea about the extent of the house situation. let me leave it at that.