Shill Alert2....

[Foolkiller]

I want to be clear:

 

Dan does not get a pass because he is a forum member. I have not said that at all. I am asking you to judge character based on a whole, not an isolated incident alone.

 

Yes, Dan screwed up. Yes, I would even say to a large degree.

 

Let me emphasize though that I am noticing a disturbing trend here among this community that in the pursuit of truth, it becomes to the point of being over zealous. I am all for the truth, I am all for honesty. I am all for vigorously pursuing somebody who has done something wrong. I am all for castigating somebody who does something wrong, but I believe in should be with an eye towards changing their behavior, not just puffing our chests out and lecturing somebody who does or says something wrong.

 

But to be fair to what others have intimated... I used to say the following all the time in closings to juries when the defendant brought character testimony and was considered an "upstanding member" of the community:

 

Character is not what you do when everybody is around to see, but it is measured by what you do when nobody is watching or looking. It is not what you do when you know you might be caught, but rather how you act when you believe you will never be caught.

[Ze-man]

Character is not what you do when everybody is around to see, but it is measured by what you do when nobody is watching or looking. It is not what you do when you know you might be caught, but rather how you act when you believe you will never be caught.

 

 

That is darn good.. you go to school or what?

 

And as usual Brian.. you bring a voice of reason in an attempt to keep the lid on a potentially volatile situation. Things can get pretty dicey when a persons character is brought to question.

 

I am off to go watch the Pacer game at a friends.

Wish me..them luck.

 

Ze-

[THE_BEYONDER]

Character is not what you do when everybody is around to see, but it is measured by what you do when nobody is watching or looking. It is not what you do when you know you might be caught, but rather how you act when you believe you will never be caught.

 

In other words: You're only who you are..when noone is looking .

 

I agree. But your above statement seems to contradict the point you were making a page ago:

 

Since I know Dan personally, I have the benefit of knowing that he is a good person since I have seen it up close and personal. Others have not had that benefit.

 

 

 

Another question I feel you should ask yourself is this:

 

If FD had been bidding on a book that OF was selling...and OF shilled the auction... would FD's response be 'better' or 'worse'?

[Foolkiller]

No, Beyonder, I'm not contradicting myself, just giving a tip of the cap to the fact that I realize the outrage that some people feel over Dan's actions, because I have asked juries to judge others on the fact that people of normally high character often do things obviously wrong. I prefaced my remarks by saying, I wanted to give some balance.

 

I can't answer what FD's response would be. I can only tell you what I think about the issue. For me, this isn't a question of was Dan right or wrong, it's a question of how many of us, and again I include myself, have been acting towards others on this forum. Always quick to judge, never ready to be forgiving, even when we know somebody has done something wrong.

[october]

Character is not what you do when everybody is around to see, but it is measured by what you do when nobody is watching or looking. It is not what you do when you know you might be caught, but rather how you act when you believe you will never be caught.

 

In other words: You're only who you are..when noone is looking .

 

I agree. But your above statement seems to contradict the point you were making a page ago:

 

Since I know Dan personally, I have the benefit of knowing that he is a good person since I have seen it up close and personal. Others have not had that benefit.

 

 

Another question I feel you should ask yourself is this:

 

If FD had been bidding on a book that OF was selling...and OF shilled the auction... would FD's response be 'better' or 'worse'?

 

It is pretty obvious how the board treats shillers, just look at the thread where Kiltman admitted it. Personally, I don't care if a shiller has 5 posts or 5,000, has sold 10 books or 100. Both are equally shady in my opinion. If anything, people should be more inclined to cut Kiltman slack due to his youth and relative eBay inexperience. At least he admitted it when confronted and took his lumps instead of offering up a half-hearted, backhanded "apology".

[PedigreeMan]

You know what, Brian? You can get off of your highhorse, too. You're the one making a mountain out of a molehill here, not those of us expressing genuine hurt over all of this. You castigated Andy (October Fire) who backed off appropriately, yet you're still harping on this. Give it a rest.

 

No one purposely ran Dan off with this information. Some people (myself included) have a much more negative opinion on shilling one's auctions than others, and as a result are going to be the ones that hunt for the truth more and end up having stronger things to say once said truth comes out. You should respect them rather than try and lay a guilt trip on them. Also, yes, some people hold Dan to a higher standard because he is a member of this board. Sort of like how lawyers are supposed to hold a higher ethical standard than us commoners. If you're scum, it can be hard to do, but if you're not, the riches are well worth it.

 

Dan should take his lumps in this thread, spend a few days in the public stocks, then we should be done with this. (If he does it again, however, the process should start over.) No one's advocating a constant trolling of him here or messing with his auctions or anything. We just want him to know how we feel.

 

I'm still going to shake his hand at Wizard Whirled this August. But I certainly wouldn't introduce him to my sister now.

 

Alan

[Red Hook]

But if he can get us all tickets to a Cubs game, that would help.

[Foolkiller]

alan,

 

let me apologize if you think I'm on a high horse. I've only responded to those comments that have continued after mine. I have not commented on my own afterwards, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm still harping on it.

 

I'm not here professing that Dan should not put some time in the stocks, just not with the same vigor.

 

Go back and read through the thread and tell me if you don't think some of the comments are unjustly harsh.

 

And incidentally, a mountain of a mole hill? I commented on PAGE 12.

[Tomega]

This is an unbelieveable thread. Flying Donut got caught in multiple shills and lies. Very dissappointing to say in the least. Shilling is stealing as far as I am concerned. To make matters worse, it was one of the worst shill names he could have possibly used - it had his last name for God sakes. Who knows how long it has been going on, chances are it has happened before.

 

But.........

 

He is not comic-keys nor does he practice any of the coward Dupcak's scumbag tactics. I mention this because there are quite a few people here who are treating him like he was Dupcak class con artist. He is not.

 

Someone called him worthless, like what? A child molestor? An Enron executive? Give me a break. He is not worthless.

 

He made a mistake that he , initially, did not think it was a big deal. He could easily have been suspended from eBay but the ire he has faced in the forums should be enough.

 

He has apologized and offered a mea culpa. Time to move on and let him lick his well deserved wounds.

 

 

I do not think I have ever done any business with Dan but I have seen quite a few of his posts. He has helped people out and participated in forum charities. Except for the recent transgression and the occasional lapse into Liberal nonsense..hehe; he has seemed to be stand up guy.

[THE_BEYONDER]

No, Beyonder, I'm not contradicting myself, just giving a tip of the cap to the fact that I realize the outrage that some people feel over Dan's actions, because I have asked juries to judge others on the fact that people of normally high character often do things obviously wrong. I prefaced my remarks by saying, I wanted to give some balance.

 

I can't answer what FD's response would be. I can only tell you what I think about the issue. For me, this isn't a question of was Dan right or wrong, it's a question of how many of us, and again I include myself, have been acting towards others on this forum. Always quick to judge, never ready to be forgiving, even when we know somebody has done something wrong.

 

I had drinks with Dan last year in Chicago, and had a great time.

 

When the evidence was 1st presented, there was no doubt in my mind that FD would not shill his own auctions, and figured he would come on & clear it up.

 

It was not until he presented his defence , that doubt cast it's shadow.

 

I understand that the witchhunts get out-of-hand around here, but I find it hard to believe that OF wouldn't have been crucified on these boards if the tables were reversed.

 

Do I think FD should leave? Not at all.

 

It isn't the act of shilling that bothers me, but his response to the allegations in the 1st place.

[mr_highgrade]

Ditto

[Foolkiller]

It isn't the act of shilling that bothers me, but his response to the allegations in the 1st place.

 

 

Beyonder, you make a very legitimate point.

 

Anyway, that's all for me tonight. I don't think it turned into the blood bath that Rob envisioned, and I'm thankful for that.

[Rocketeer]

I love you too,.....

[THE_BEYONDER]

[october]

What happened to your post Banner? Have second thoughts?

 

 

 

I am out anyway, finals are calling.

 

 

 

 

BTW: your money was sent out today.

[PedigreeMan]

This one's for Brian and "Tomega:"

 

No one here is comparing Dan to a child molester or a murderer or anything. (This is what I meant by your turning this from a mountain into a molehill, Brian.) In fact, I think most of us have been rather diplomatic about the whole thing (except Andy, who seemed to completely wig-out after days of pulling the ultimate BassGMan in not taking a stand on the issue ).

 

Again, let Dan do his time in the stocks. He got caught, he fessed up, he gets ribbed, end of story. Don't try and minimize what he's done and confessed to. From now on, he needs to work on rebuilding trust. He'll either build up or destroy what remains of his trustworthiness by his actions, and I'm sure he'll be under the strongest microscrope possible so we'll be kept well informed. If he really is the good guy that I initially thought and this was nothing but an aberration, he'll end up all right. But until then, let us vent guilt-free!

 

Alan

[jbud73]

Character is not what you do when everybody is around to see, but it is measured by what you do when nobody is watching or looking. It is not what you do when you know you might be caught, but rather how you act when you believe you will never be caught.

 

In other words: You're only who you are..when noone is looking .

 

I agree. But your above statement seems to contradict the point you were making a page ago:

 

Since I know Dan personally, I have the benefit of knowing that he is a good person since I have seen it up close and personal. Others have not had that benefit.

 

 

Another question I feel you should ask yourself is this:

 

If FD had been bidding on a book that OF was selling...and OF shilled the auction... would FD's response be 'better' or 'worse'?

 

It is pretty obvious how the board treats shillers, just look at the thread where Kiltman admitted it. Personally, I don't care if a shiller has 5 posts or 5,000, has sold 10 books or 100. Both are equally shady in my opinion. If anything, people should be more inclined to cut Kiltman slack due to his youth and relative eBay inexperience. At least he admitted it when confronted and took his lumps instead of offering up a half-hearted, backhanded "apology".

 

 

I think Donut's half hearted apology stems from the fact that he did not shill anybody into actually buying the book and therefore while not justified, he clearly views this as not being as bad as what Kiltman and others have done.

 

While I think that logic is flawed and I do not believe there is such a thing as a legitimate shilling. I will say that had I got the scans and been shilled up farther and ACTUALLY WON the book - there'd be a lot more F#'s coming out of my mouth now.

[october]

(except Andy, who seemed to completely wig-out after days of pulling the ultimate BassGMan in not taking a stand on the issue ).

 

[Foolkiller]

alright, I am going to stop now. But Alan, listen, I didn't think anyone, least of all october fire, was comparing dan to a child molester or anything else. I'm not saying everyone hasn't been somewhat diplomatic with Dan, but in my reading (for the first time by the way) through the thread this afternoon, I was surprised at some of the language used.

 

And what I'm really commenting on here goes way beyond this thread or Dan himself, but rather that the boards (and I'm not directing this at you Alan, or anyone specifically) is becoming this small subculture of always wanting to be on the attack. It's not an issue of trying to interject some moral superiority, but just a subtle nudge to ask whether or not we're all becoming a bit hostile.

 

Your version of how you present what should happen in this situation seems fine to me. But again, I don't really think that well paced, calm, rationale presentation was the direction this thread was taking the first 12 pages.

[casey1870]

If anything, people should be more inclined to cut Kiltman slack due to his youth and relative eBay inexperience. At least he admitted it when confronted and took his lumps instead of offering up a half-hearted, backhanded "apology".

 

 

I agree with this statement ......