Shill Alert2....

[Excelsior!-migration]

I am done with this thread. It is what it is and I think people have enough info to make up their own minds on the subject. I will be watching for the next lamb to get taken to the slaughterhouse for the same conduct as FD who was given a pass by some.

[PedigreeMan]

Look, I myself questioned dm226's initial posts on this matter because he offered up a scenario without providing links and was begging to be "forced" to provide the name of the person board member he was referring too. He also claimed to have met the board member.

 

I'm still not convinced that dm226 isn't just a shill account for a regular here. But he was not so much "attacked" as he was questioned over his motivations and the fact that he provided no concrete evidence. Once he did, you will notice the mood shifted.

 

Like it or not, FD does have a track record here. At this point, I am of the opinion that the shilling incidents discovered are not part of some wide spread plan of shilling. But I also think they are not to be dismissed. Shilling is a form of theft of funds. Ebay does not allow it. It was wrong, and I do believe that the woman who won the tickets paid more than she might have had to. These are not victimless crimes.

 

I do not want to get into telling FD what he should or should not have done. I hope he gets it. If he doesn't, then nothing anyone says here that will change that. He may feel he didn't do anything wrong. Each one of the folks here will make a personal decision whether to bid on his auctions or not. I also want to add that my posting of the "Freaky Links" was not out of some personal animosity towards FD, .....I just like to put puzzle pieces together. If I'd found material that cleared FD, I would have posted it just as fast. As a matter of fact, I've gone through a lot of his auctions results.....most of his auctions are small, $3 to $10 auctions. I have not found any evidence of direct shilling in any of these. And yes, I have way too much time on my hands.

 

I think the biggest problem with the boards is not the "witch hunts" or the detecting or the tough treatment of newbies. It's the shills that are here all the time, and keep coming. To disrupt, to incite and to add nothing. MMMarvelous is just the latest iteration of this. I think Arch is the best moderator we could ever ask for. But I just wish he gave these a little less rope.

 

In closing, I want to say that I admit it, I am an idealist. I like to think that most of the folks here are of slightly higher than average moral fiber. These boards are certainly the center of one of the most knowledgable, funny and generous bunch of guys and gals I've ever run into. I guess I've come to hold us to a higher standard of behavior, because we know better. Or should.

 

Brad, dude, we think so alike that it's scary. We even both engage in obsessive hoarding of two-bit pedigrees. Someone test our DNA to make sure we're not related!

 

"Are you my daddy?!?!"

 

(Although I'm not convinced that dm226 is a shill for a regular here. Now Excelsior, MMMarvelous, Gallinator, and a hoard of others ... )

[awe4one]

The silience is deafening from the posting elite except for a few brave souls that were willing to cross the line and call a spade a spade. They of course are now scorned and won't be allowed to be part of the group while FD and Lighthouse are already being welcomed back with open arms from those same posting elite.

 

Bullsh1t...

 

I don't believe anyone, to include your supposed "elite", has come out defending what FD did. What has happened is some of us are willing to forgive his screw-up due to past behavior on these Boards. What FD did was bad...no question about it. But he's also done a whole lot of good that can't just be shoved aside in favor of the lynch mob...

 

Newbies doing the same aren't given this benefit because they haven't proven themselves as anything other than shills. There's nothing else to base their conduct on...

 

And for those who gave FD the works and aren't as forgiving? Nothing has changed in my mind. That's their opinion and they're entitled to it. To say they will be scorned or punished for their opinions smacks of something you'd see in Middle School...

 

Jim

[Excelsior!-migration]

you have no idea about the extent of the house situation. let me leave it at that.

 

Sounds like he did something to you personally and that is why you have a hard time forgiving. FD did his deeds to someone else so it didn't really effect you. Anyhow, I don't care anymore. I have had my fill of this BS.

[Foolkiller]

no it was not to me personally.

[skybolt]

I think that both Kiltman and FD have suffered the consequences for their actions. We all make mistakes in life and need to be reprimended, but we also deserve second chances. Sometimes the temptations get the best of us, and we do something stupid. Does that mean we're evil people, of course not.

 

I always live by the rule of do unto others as you want the them to do unto you. If I laugh or redicule someone else's misfortunes, then I should expect the same. Before we act like we're perfect, we should realize that in this business any little transgression (not just shilling) can drag you through the mud. Whether it be overgrading books, not disclosing restoration (even though you can't detect it), selling an item on 2 separate sites, resubmitting pressed books, etc. If you create enemies, then they'll be waiting in the wings to catch your mistakes.

 

The last thing I'd want to do is come down hard on someone who made an error in judgment....because if I fall off my horse, then I should expect the same treatment from them. I'm sure I wouldn't like being called a bad person just because of my one weak moment. If I am, then I'd seek forgiveness and learn from my mistakes.

[BassGMan]

 

As for Lighthouse, I am not one of the people welcoming him back with open arms. His transgression was far greater in scope. However -- he is doing what he can to make things right again. Slowly, and the test of time will tell the tale, but I can truly say that if he does so, then I think even for him we should be willing to be forgiving as well.

 

I barely read any of this thread except for new postings last night through this morning but I did want to comment about my personally welcoming back Lighthouse on the other thread. I know he was pretty lame with finishing up (or not finishing up) many of his business deals months back and for that reason I would probably not want to do any online business with him. However, what I am welcoming him back for are his contributions to this Forum. His contributions here were vast and his ideas and opinions were well thought out, concise, provacative, humorous and intelligent. I certainly prefer that kind of poster over another poster with a perfect sales record who just delivers gibberish for posts. Some people you are friends with and some people you do business with.

 

Lighthouse could have done a better job in business, but I really do not believe that he purposely tried to pull any scams or rip people off. Sometimes shiite happens, some people are just better at cleaning up the mess than others and I guess Lighthouse wasn't that great at cleaning up his mess.

[Darthdiesel]

Like candyman....say his name three times and he's shows up

[Darthdiesel]

If your going to make excuses for FD then there is a huge list of ebay shillers that have been dragged through the mud that deserve the same respect. I understand that FD has a large number of friends on the board that are willing to shove it under the rug, but they are the same ones who go on the attack when some less know member is caught. Very similar how Lighthouse is welcomed back with open arms by the boards after ripping off a large group of members. Yes, friends are friends, but some people should get out of the attack mode if they are not going to apply it to everyone equally.

 

Just as an aside, I've been pretty consistent with my treatment of exposed shillers and outed forumite wrongdoers from Pimpy and Lighthouse, to Kiltman and Donut and that has always been one of understanding and making amends and moving on. I've been helping lighthouse along with strongguy to "take care of outstanding debts" to members. not once did I ever condemn or shun pimpy for his transgression in the past and probably treated him more roughly becasuse of his opposing political viewpoint. I even gave kiltie advice on being careful of physical retaliation from local buyers of his... I think I've been consistent with those who've been outed on the forum

[dm226]

I was going to wait until the dust finally settled before weighing in, but I figured I might as well do so now. This thread is no longer about asking some basic questions about ebay bidding policy, or jumping on a ‘newbie’ for daring to ‘challenge’ an established board member, or outing a board member once a suitable acceptable level of evidence is presented, or finding excuses as to why shilling is now OK (as long as it is by someone with a track record). To me, this thread is now about trust, and how people define it within this online collecting context.

 

Perhaps I should give you all a little more context now, and allow me to share some insights that I have gathered as a result of this whole experience.

 

1) Who am I? This only mattered when it was assumed that, by virtue of having few posts, I was a shill or someone looking to ‘get’ FD. Go back and reread my posts, and the responses – it was not my intent to out anyone. I made a mistake when I initially provided my context, due to the fact that I was unaware that the same item had been auctioned twice. I only decided to post after someone else had identified another shill, and I decided to post as I felt I would have been interested in the information, too. I would also encourage you to go back and read how the thread played out, before RH stepped forward with his own legitimate evidence (in the sense of being provided by an established board member). I have been on the board since last summer and read posts regularly (almost every day). You can see me when I am online, and I have nothing to hide. My user name is the same as my ebay name, and yet people still assume that I am a shill because I have few posts. The posts that I have made, though infrequent, have been fairly personal about my collecting interests, etc. What evidence is there that I am a shill?

 

2) This leads to another issue – how different board members ‘experience’ collecting. While seem to be a lot of nice people here, I have used this board mostly for info gathering purposes. I have a decent collection (eg. I have about 15 of the top 20 SA books debated on another thread), but I don’t attend many cons any more. I worked in the industry about 20 years ago for about 5 years, but do other things now. As a result, I don’t seek the same collegial experience here that others do (which is why I wasn’t worried about giving the link to FDs auction, despite antic the reaction). Now, to suggest that I am somehow less knowledgeable because I post less or that I am somehow a ‘less’ worthy member of this community because I post less is a joke. Some of the more recent posts on this thread would suggest that there are a number of others like myself. I realize that there have been problems with shills, but cut us quiet folk some slack!!

 

3) I do enjoy reading on these boards, and being a tangential part of this community, so I would not have posted the auctions if I didn’t think FD was guilty. There were also some suggestions that there was some degree of disingenuousness to my original post. I will agree that I knew where the thread might lead to, but any subterfuge on my part had more to do with seeing how this board reacted than to getting FD in any hot water. However, having said this, I have had past experiences with FD that have not been quite as ‘clean’ as other here have, so I suppose that I wasn’t worried about him getting in trouble here. Let’s just say that I see a pattern with him going overboard to make good once he’s been called out on something. However, if I was really interested in ‘getting’ FD, I would have posted my concerns much earlier, or posted a few hundred lame posts to build my credibility first!!

 

4) One of the most significant problems with this board (as in most others) is the flawed logic that post numbers somehow relate to reliability and trustworthiness. This is BS. Using this criterion, Kiltman would be a much more reputable person because of the insane (or is it inane?) number of posts he has made in the past few months. While I agree that familiarity is important (meeting people at a forum dinner, etc.) to look at post count is ridiculous. This would be like arguing that McDonald’s is a more reputable restaurant than another restaurant, because they have served more billions of customers. Even then, just because I have likely gone to McDonalds more times than any other restaurant, and there is a familiarity associated with the dining experience, shouldn’t mean I should trust that restaurant any more than a new one.

 

5) There is a siege mentality on these boards, and I do respect those that have weighed into this debate heavily (on either side). I have received some PMs to apologize and to thank me for ‘outing FD’ (although I don’t think I really did, the thread did?). What is disappointing is that some (not all) of the messages have a different tone that those that appear on this thread, which would suggest a fear of reprisal (except for one, who should be easy to guess!). This would also suggest that what gets posted on these boards is not an accurate reflection of the sentiments the everyone in this community.

 

6) Finally, I’d like to note that the most disappointing part of all of this for me is the notion that shilling is somehow OK. No, it is not like child molestation (or any other example given). In the grand scheme of things, collecting is largely irrelevant and therefore, most things that happen here are too. However, I would argue that the fundamental issue for us as collectors and/or dealers (especially as we increasingly rely on transactions other than face-to-face ones) is trust. That is a reason why there is a CGC in the first place – to reduce our need to trust others in the marketplace (especially with online transactions). And shilling (like undisclosed pressing) is a flagrant abuse of trust. That is why these are hot buttons for so many here. I would even so far to suggest that abusing this trust IS this hobby’s equivalent of the rapist. Just because someone seems like a nice guy or has a lot of posts (or even a lot of ebay feedback) does not mean that this person should be considered exempt from the occasional ‘slip up.’ The fact that people are trying to find reasons to think this is somehow not that big of a deal is what scares me, especially when it is couched in terms of not being as bad as what some others have done. To me this sends us all down a very slippery slope, as this what makes me lose my trust in the hobby itself. Thanks for letting me rant, now back to my lurking…

 

Dan

[Gallinator-migration]

Ready to joust some, Diesel? I can't wait to see you use the term "ad hominem" in every other post.

 

Interestingly enough, I've had some very productive face-to-face discussions over the years wrt the various aspects of comic book collecting, investment and speculation. As the popularity of eBay has increased, conversations have turned to some of the more interesting aspects of the venue. It may seem odd to some posting here, but I've yet to run across anyone in person who feels that any shilling at any time for any reason is the best solution - or even an acceptable solution - to a problem. Furthermore, the in-person opinion is universal that, in the absence of an immediate and heartfelt recognition of wrongdoing, the shiller is missing a fundamental piece of the ethical puzzle and is in dire need of re-education.

 

Long story short, I would not hesitate to express my views in person, in the same manner, using the same words. From this and the "Variant Madness" thread on eBay, I have all of the information I need to form an opinion of Flying-Donut and, for that matter, you, DarthDiesel. My opinion may be incorrect, but IMO it's better to have the occasional incorrect POV than to be afraid of having one at all. If the perception is inaccurate, it sounds like that is more of a problem for you, DD, and FD than it is for me.

 

Finally, it is important to initially separate a person's actions from the person himself. E.g., I can decry the practice of slabbing Modern comics without having to judge the seller of those books. I can also voice my opinion on the rationality of spending $225 on a Sky Captain movie poster or paying multiples of OPG prices for a single digit's variation on the cover of a comic book, again without attacking the person doing those things. At some point, though, those actions will define the person and in totality give a clear picture of who that person really is. Some people find themselves seen in a bad light and react defensively, which doesn't help. If you don't like the picture that's painted and the perception of others as to what that picture represents, start using a new brush - don't just try to hide the canvas. IOW, FD's initial actions were bad; the attempts to obfuscate, deny and later justify his actions, followed by what no sane person could construe as an apology, were worse.

 

Have at it - I'll check in later tonight.

[Sal]

will someone please work up a scorecard, here? i need to know;

who is bashing n00bs,

who is saying that shilling is okay (by FD or any other seller),

and who is just a shill for another poster, banned or active.

 

any help would be appreciated

[Red Hook]

I still feel that your continued insistance on remaining essentially anonymous speaks volumes. So you're up in Alberta and your first name is Dan. But after seeing the harsh light turned on Donut, (with reason), you're still lurking. Not good.

 

Your admission that you had some past run-ins with Donut confirms my suspicion that you did come packing some sort of agenda. "I have had past experiences with FD that have not been quite as ‘clean’ as other here have, so I suppose that I wasn’t worried about him getting in trouble here." Care to go into more detail? What are you afraid of? You have no stake in the boards, you admit it yourself.

 

Look, I'm not trying to run you or anything, all I ask is for fairness, on both ends. And I do believe very much that it was your intent to out Donut from the start. "I will agree that I knew where the thread might lead..." At least be honest about it.

 

Donut and the board will handle themselves, and work things out over time. You obviously see yourself as an outsider. It would have been irresponsible for us to swallow your story whole, being as we simply did not and do not know who you are.

 

Finally, I think if you read through the thread again, the vast majority of the posters are of the position that shilling is wrong. Dead wrong.

 

Red Hook

[Rickdogg]

Skipping over the last 3 pages...same arguments being presented. Everyone will have their own opinion on this matter and everyone has their right to believe whatever they want.

 

Although I have been on this board for close to 3 years, I personally never really knew Dan and never have dealt with him. However, a few friends of mine such as Carl (aka Darthdiesel) speak of him in high regard and that does mean something to me because Darth as you all know is a great person on and off of the forum. If he mingles with Dan and his family on a regular basis, I can only presume that Dan is overall (99.9%) a great guy as well.

 

Surprisingly, I myself have some sympathy for Dan. If this was a few years ago, when I first started "scam busting" I probably would have had a different take on the matter. Just like some members stated before Dan overall seems to be an upstanding guy and just made a HUGE mistake by first shill bidding, secondly with an extremely obvious ebay ID, and I personally did not like how he handled the matter when outted on the matter. However, I think we need to show some compassion for those that for the most part added a positive note to not only this very board, but to the comic collecting community as a whole. Just like in cases where a person commits a crime, a judge will take into account a person's past behavior to determine if they are more than likely going to commit the same crime again or if it was a mistake that the person can learn from and continue to be an upstanding citizen from then on.

 

Take it for what it is worth and keep in mind that in no way do I agree with what Dan has done, but that is my stance in the matter.

[FFB]

will someone please work up a scorecard, here? i need to know;

 

who is saying that shilling is okay (by FD or any other seller),

 

Yeah, I missed this part too. Can someone link to the post where someone said shilling is ok?

[drbanner]

will someone please work up a scorecard, here? i need to know;

 

who is saying that shilling is okay (by FD or any other seller),

 

Yeah, I missed this part too. Can someone link to the post where someone said shilling is ok?

 

I didn't see it either, please help us out here people!

[BassGMan]

Dan, after reading this last post of yours, I now personally consider you to be one of the most valuable members here and I encourage you to post more often. I never judge someone by post count as many here that have posts in the thousands are made up of absolutely useless information (or lack thereof). I'm not talking about opinions or ideas that are useless, but moreso the child's play that we see here day in and day out. Reading a post like the one you just wrote is why I have chosen to spend as much time as I do on this forum. Keep it up and chime in more often please. -----Sid

[nearmint]

FD, you did a BAD thing. You should be ashamed of yourself. Period.

 

Now, when are you going to find those last 5 Bolland Wonder Womans I need?

[dm226]

I still feel that your continued insistance on remaining essentially anonymous speaks volumes. So you're up in Alberta and your first name is Dan. But after seeing the harsh light turned on Donut, (with reason), you're still lurking. Not good.

 

Your admission that you had some past run-ins with Donut confirms my suspicion that you did come packing some sort of agenda. "I have had past experiences with FD that have not been quite as ‘clean’ as other here have, so I suppose that I wasn’t worried about him getting in trouble here." Care to go into more detail? What are you afraid of? You have no stake in the boards, you admit it yourself.

 

Look, I'm not trying to run you or anything, all I ask is for fairness, on both ends. And I do believe very much that it was your intent to out Donut from the start. "I will agree that I knew where the thread might lead..." At least be honest about it.

 

Donut and the board will handle themselves, and work things out over time. You obviously see yourself as an outsider. It would have been irresponsible for us to swallow your story whole, being as we simply did not and do not know who you are.

 

Finally, I think if you read through the thread again, the vast majority of the posters are of the position that shilling is wrong. Dead wrong.

 

Red Hook

 

Some thoughts:

 

You make some good points, RH, but hopefully you can appreciate that I don't have any desire to offer up much more than what I already have here. So what does not speaking much say volumes about? To most here, that means I have something to hide. In reality I simply don't feel the need to post much.

 

I was not looking to 'get' FD when I came across his auction - I was actually trying to buy a WSF 29 in reasonable shape. My concern regarding the possibility of retracting bids was a legitimate one. If I really wanted a piece of FD, and given that I have no presence here, I could have simply played naive and listed the auctions and pretended that I had no idea who he was, and then the 'wolves' really would have had at him. In fact, it wasn't until you came forward RH, that the 'long knives' came out (at least against a non-newbie!)

 

I suppose over time, if I continue to post, those on the boards will get to know me better. But I disagree with you that I am obliged to share more with this group, and that being anonymous is not good - I don't think that I am an anonymous person, I just don't volunteer information in the same ways as others here. And I think I was very honest about my past experiences with FD (you will have to forgive me for taking some time off between posts - it certainly fits with my profile!). It is obvious that I am not one to share much here, but I would have been happy to discuss things further (or even share a bit more about my own interests) in a PM.

 

I do see myself as an outsider, but it should also be obvious that I am quite happy there. I hope that my previous post has shed light on the fatc that I think that there is room on this board for those like myself.

 

My comments re: shilling had more to do with the fact that some were trying to pass off FD's transgressions as "slip ups", justified by his board presence. My bigger concern related to the direction we are heading if we decide on a case-by-case basis what we are willing to accept in terms of breaches of trust.

 

And I would be happy to discuss my prior experience with FD with you personally...

 

Dan or is it "Death Metal 226"?

[OldGuy]

Post deleted by OldGuy