2nd appearances should be worth a lot more.

[Lazyboy]

Jimmy Olsen 134 is considered to be Darkseids 1st app.,and he's only on a T.V. screen. No full body app. not even his name mentioned.

 

It is a bit... out of the norm for comic collecting. But there are a couple of reasons...

 

JO 134 is a truly difficult book in high grade. Vastly fewer copies in 9.2 or better than Forever People 1 and New Gods 1. The CGC census shows....

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for JO 134

48/48/16/6

Total graded 806

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 census for Forever People 1 from 9.2-9.8

 

88/111/83/25

Total graded 837

 

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for New Gods 1

110/143/143/27

Total graded 882

 

Sometimes- when there is more than one cameo before a full appearance, you see that first cameo take on more importance. So in the case of Darkseid, you have two cameos before the full appearance.

 

Between JO being much rarer in high grade and having a couple of cameos before a full appearance, the market has given a higher value than one might expect value to JO 134.

 

Should rarity of high grade copies discern the importance of the character? No. It either is ,or is not the 1st appearance.

 

Once again, price is determined by supply and demand. A first appearance, whether brief or full, is only one factor that affects only one part of that equation.

 

The price of a book does not affect the reality or quality of the appearance it contains.

[oakman29]

Jimmy Olsen 134 is considered to be Darkseids 1st app.,and he's only on a T.V. screen. No full body app. not even his name mentioned.

 

It is a bit... out of the norm for comic collecting. But there are a couple of reasons...

 

JO 134 is a truly difficult book in high grade. Vastly fewer copies in 9.2 or better than Forever People 1 and New Gods 1. The CGC census shows....

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for JO 134

48/48/16/6

Total graded 806

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 census for Forever People 1 from 9.2-9.8

 

88/111/83/25

Total graded 837

 

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for New Gods 1

110/143/143/27

Total graded 882

 

Sometimes- when there is more than one cameo before a full appearance, you see that first cameo take on more importance. So in the case of Darkseid, you have two cameos before the full appearance.

 

Between JO being much rarer in high grade and having a couple of cameos before a full appearance, the market has given a higher value than one might expect value to JO 134.

 

Should rarity of high grade copies discern the importance of the character? No. It either is ,or is not the 1st appearance.

 

Once again, price is determined by supply and demand. A first appearance, whether brief or full, is only one factor that affects only one part of that equation.

 

The price of a book does not affect the reality or quality of the appearance it contains.

 

I didn't mention price or value of a book.

[Lazyboy]

all 1st full means is second actual appearance.

 

I can't find the 'like' button, so +1 will have to do.

 

 

 

-slym

 

That's not even true. A few characters have multiple barely-there appearances before making their true, full introduction.

i don't disagree, I'm just saying the barely-there appearance is still being disregarded by collectors. It is still a first appearance even if it is only on one panel. Common examples would be ASM 299/300 or 360/361 or Avengers 195/196, or X-Factor 5/6.

 

Here's a great one X-Men Annual 14 . Where Gambit is all over that book, 17 or so panels if I recall. Yet X- men 266 is the big book for that character.

 

Back to my earlier post, outside of the 6 panels on the first page in which he appears, all he really does is stand around in the background. He could have been replaced with a houseplant or simply erased in the other 9 panels in which he is at least partially depicted and nobody would have noticed or cared.

 

The only reason he was in the issue at all is because he was with Storm and that's when she got back to the mansion. Also, keep in mind that it was a 40 page story in an Annual and not a regular 22 page story.

[Mio]

Hulk 181 does okay.

 

Agreed!

[oakman29]

all 1st full means is second actual appearance.

 

I can't find the 'like' button, so +1 will have to do.

 

 

 

-slym

 

That's not even true. A few characters have multiple barely-there appearances before making their true, full introduction.

i don't disagree, I'm just saying the barely-there appearance is still being disregarded by collectors. It is still a first appearance even if it is only on one panel. Common examples would be ASM 299/300 or 360/361 or Avengers 195/196, or X-Factor 5/6.

 

Here's a great one X-Men Annual 14 . Where Gambit is all over that book, 17 or so panels if I recall. Yet X- men 266 is the big book for that character.

 

Back to my earlier post, outside of the 6 panels on the first page in which he appears, all he really does is stand around in the background. He could have been replaced with a houseplant or simply erased in the other 9 panels in which he is at least partially depicted and nobody would have noticed or cared.

 

The only reason he was in the issue at all is because he was with Storm and that's when she got back to the mansion. Also, keep in mind that it was a 40 page story in an Annual and not a regular 22 page story.

 

1. Was Gambit in the story- clearly yes.

2. Was Gambit named- yes

 

Me thinks splitting hairs.......

[Mio]

all 1st full means is second actual appearance.

 

I can't find the 'like' button, so +1 will have to do.

 

 

 

-slym

 

That's not even true. A few characters have multiple barely-there appearances before making their true, full introduction.

i don't disagree, I'm just saying the barely-there appearance is still being disregarded by collectors. It is still a first appearance even if it is only on one panel. Common examples would be ASM 299/300 or 360/361 or Avengers 195/196, or X-Factor 5/6.

 

Here's a great one X-Men Annual 14 . Where Gambit is all over that book, 17 or so panels if I recall. Yet X- men 266 is the big book for that character.

 

Back to my earlier post, outside of the 6 panels on the first page in which he appears, all he really does is stand around in the background. He could have been replaced with a houseplant or simply erased in the other 9 panels in which he is at least partially depicted and nobody would have noticed or cared.

 

The only reason he was in the issue at all is because he was with Storm and that's when she got back to the mansion. Also, keep in mind that it was a 40 page story in an Annual and not a regular 22 page story.

 

If someone is born on May 1st at 11:59PM, nobody will celebrate or care about May 2nd on the basis of "May 1st? , he was only there for like a minute... May 2nd is his first full day and should be celebrated" not his birthday. For me it is about the same for characters in comics - I do not care if the 1st appearance is short or lame.

[TheAvenger80]

all 1st full means is second actual appearance.

 

I can't find the 'like' button, so +1 will have to do.

 

 

 

-slym

 

That's not even true. A few characters have multiple barely-there appearances before making their true, full introduction.

i don't disagree, I'm just saying the barely-there appearance is still being disregarded by collectors. It is still a first appearance even if it is only on one panel. Common examples would be ASM 299/300 or 360/361 or Avengers 195/196, or X-Factor 5/6.

 

Here's a great one X-Men Annual 14 . Where Gambit is all over that book, 17 or so panels if I recall. Yet X- men 266 is the big book for that character.

 

Back to my earlier post, outside of the 6 panels on the first page in which he appears, all he really does is stand around in the background. He could have been replaced with a houseplant or simply erased in the other 9 panels in which he is at least partially depicted and nobody would have noticed or cared.

 

The only reason he was in the issue at all is because he was with Storm and that's when she got back to the mansion. Also, keep in mind that it was a 40 page story in an Annual and not a regular 22 page story.

 

If someone is born on May 1st at 11:59PM, nobody will celebrate or care about May 2nd on the basis of "May 1st? , he was only there for like a minute... May 2nd is his first full day and should be celebrated" not his birthday. For me it is about the same for characters in comics - I do not care if the 1st appearance is short or lame.

 

interesting analogy...

[KirbyJack]

I think all of this tooth gnashing over what constitutes a first appearance is misplaced.

 

First is first. Just accept that in some cases, like Hulk 181, a character's most desirable comic book is not that character's first appearance.

[TheAvenger80]

I think all of this tooth gnashing over what constitutes a first appearance is misplaced.

 

First is first. Just accept that in some cases, like Hulk 181, a character's most desirable comic book is not that character's first appearance.

 

I agree, and for the purposes of this thread I am referring to the book-after-the-generally-accepted-most-important-book for that character.

 

Aka, this topic wasn't meant to dredge up the old cameo vs. 1st appearance argument

[KirbyJack]

 

I know! I've been feeling sorry for you for about 2 1/2 pages!

For what it's worth, I agree. The value placed on first appearances is a bit disproportionate. It's a key- heavy market. Scares me, because I think it's healthier ( and way more fun) when people read and collect full runs.

[aerischan]

 

I know! I've been feeling sorry for you for about 2 1/2 pages!

For what it's worth, I agree. The value placed on first appearances is a bit disproportionate. It's a key- heavy market. Scares me, because I think it's healthier ( and way more fun) when people read and collect full runs.

I reckon availability of affordable collected volumes and digital editions have decreased demand for full runs for those who primarily want to just read the stories.

[Readcomix]

I absolutely agree with the original premise, and I think prime candidates among 2nd appearances for further increases are early SA Marvels, particularly Hulk 2, JIM 84, FF2 and TTA 35. I also like Adventure 267 on the DC side.

 

Interestingly, though far from apples to apples because there's more than enough copies to meet demand, X-Force 2 went from dollar bins to $10 during New Mutants 98's movie run-up. A high print run forgotten book became liquid, a true feat considering the number of copies.

 

How's this relevant? For the younger investor collector, the guy for whom Deadpool is his generation's wolverine or Punisher, it shows second appearances can have an appeal. It's likely that such investor collectors will move into bronze/silver/gold too, as many long-timers have over time, going from collecting one era to expand into others as well.

[Readcomix]

Geez, I left out TOS 40!

[Tony S]

Jimmy Olsen 134 is considered to be Darkseids 1st app.,and he's only on a T.V. screen. No full body app. not even his name mentioned.

 

It is a bit... out of the norm for comic collecting. But there are a couple of reasons...

 

JO 134 is a truly difficult book in high grade. Vastly fewer copies in 9.2 or better than Forever People 1 and New Gods 1. The CGC census shows....

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for JO 134

48/48/16/6

Total graded 806

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 census for Forever People 1 from 9.2-9.8

 

88/111/83/25

Total graded 837

 

 

The 9.2 to 9.8 CGC census for New Gods 1

110/143/143/27

Total graded 882

 

Sometimes- when there is more than one cameo before a full appearance, you see that first cameo take on more importance. So in the case of Darkseid, you have two cameos before the full appearance.

 

Between JO being much rarer in high grade and having a couple of cameos before a full appearance, the market has given a higher value than one might expect value to JO 134.

 

Should rarity of high grade copies discern the importance of the character? No. It either is ,or is not the 1st appearance.

 

Once again, price is determined by supply and demand. A first appearance, whether brief or full, is only one factor that affects only one part of that equation.

 

The price of a book does not affect the reality or quality of the appearance it contains.

 

I didn't mention price or value of a book.

 

No, you did not. Excellent point.

 

Value (price) and 1st appearances have a correlation on value. So to does scarcity - especially on popular characters. This is hand and glove stuff. It's hard to separate these things...

 

Yes, JO 134 is in fact Darkseid's first app. CAMEO first appearance. Because JO 134 is much scarcer in high grade than Darkseid's first full appearance in Forever People 1 collectors value it more. Seems a bit odd. But there are lots of odd things that are true

[valiantman]

If someone is born on May 1st at 11:59PM, nobody will celebrate or care about May 2nd on the basis of "May 1st? , he was only there for like a minute... May 2nd is his first full day and should be celebrated" not his birthday. For me it is about the same for characters in comics - I do not care if the 1st appearance is short or lame.

 

interesting analogy...

+1

[oakman29]

If someone is born on May 1st at 11:59PM, nobody will celebrate or care about May 2nd on the basis of "May 1st? , he was only there for like a minute... May 2nd is his first full day and should be celebrated" not his birthday. For me it is about the same for characters in comics - I do not care if the 1st appearance is short or lame.

 

interesting analogy...

+1

 

It's a perfect analogy.

[Theagenes]

Conan 23 and 24 are another example of weird 1st and 2nd appearances -- Red Sonja. Conan 24 has historically been listed a first "full" appearance in the guide and CGC continues to list it as such. But that's absolute nonsense. RS appears in half the book in 23 -- it's a full appearance in every sense of the word. 24 is a first "cover" appearance, but that's it. And 24 is more highly valued.

 

 

[valiantman]

If someone is born on May 1st at 11:59PM, nobody will celebrate or care about May 2nd on the basis of "May 1st? , he was only there for like a minute... May 2nd is his first full day and should be celebrated" not his birthday. For me it is about the same for characters in comics - I do not care if the 1st appearance is short or lame.

 

interesting analogy...

+1

 

It's a perfect analogy.

 

There are 36 pages in Hulk #180 and Wolverine is on the last page... so he was born at 11:20pm.

[Gatsby77]

Yes, exactly. I guess the question is when does the something else become the huge gap between appearance 1 and 2, especially for established major characters whose first appearance is out of reach for many, become sufficient as the something else to drive certain second appearances higher?

 

Some perfect examples of this are Black Adam and Deadshot.

 

Shazam # 28 is Black Adam's 2nd appearance, and he was even (technically) on the cover of Marvel Family # 1.

 

Likewise, Detective 474 is def. not Deadshot's first appearance.

[Readcomix]

Yes, exactly. I guess the question is when does the something else become the huge gap between appearance 1 and 2, especially for established major characters whose first appearance is out of reach for many, become sufficient as the something else to drive certain second appearances higher?

 

Some perfect examples of this are Black Adam and Deadshot.

 

Shazam # 28 is Black Adam's 2nd appearance, and he was even (technically) on the cover of Marvel Family # 1.

 

Likewise, Detective 474 is def. not Deadshot's first appearance.

 

Thank you, yes. I was thinking of silver keys that have really spiked within the last decade but these are great GA examples. ( Deadshot -- Batman 59)