With technology scattering pop culture like never before... 1 1

[vodou]

I think there is still going to be key, impactful and sought after modern OA work, but they are very few and far between. You can probably count on both hands the work that people will care about in the future.

Hasn't the 'modern' version of sequential storytelling been around long enough for some to rise to the top? What's hot in comics, in OA from fifteen years ago that's 'modern' in form? I'm asking because I don't know and am curious! (And maybe looking for something good to read in tpb anyway that isn't Big Two same old same old.)

 

The Definitive “Best Comics of the Decade” (2000-2009) Master List.

 

THE DETAILS:

• Compiled from over 60 “Best of the Decade” lists.

• Only those books that made at least 5 lists are included on the master list. Organized by number of mentions

• Limited to comics books and graphic novels released between 2000-2009. 38 comics in all.

 

THE LIST:

 

https://hudsonphillips.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/best-comics-of-the-decade/

 

I'll point out that of the 38 comics on the list, only 10 are Big 2 superhero books.

Thanks. Catching up here on 54 unreads in this thread, haven't actually clicked link yet, but the second part of my question was: "in OA", has any of the OA from that list also "risen to the top"? (I do not know, not territory I'm familiar with, I am not poking the bear here!)

[JadeGiant]

This notion of compressed story telling vs decompressed story telling is a bit lost on me. I hardly even consider it a “thing” to be honest. I suppose you can’t deny there was more packed into an issue when comics were consumed monthly, but times change. Formats change, Comics are consumed differently. Does it have to be compressed vs decompressed debate? Can’t it just be different? That’s how I see it at least. Have I lamented about stories taking longer to develop in the modern era? Sure, but that is because I am enjoying the story and want more and want it now. Another issue comes out next month and I will wait. Or, I just move to TPB and collected editions and read them straight through. The enjoyment of reading the comics is still there if the story is well done … doesn’t matter if it takes a 2 issue arc or 8.

 

And if I enjoyed a story, I am interested in the art. While my preference would be that art was still produced like it was in my heyday, I will buy pages from stories I enjoyed – no word balloons needed. When I see the page, I remember the story so I don’t necessarily need word balloons to read it again (I’ll just break out the comic when that is the case). For me, the nature of how the story was written/developed has absolutely zero to do with my collecting experience. I either enjoyed the story and want pages or I didn’t. Not to mention the random page I see and buy purely for the aesthetic merit of the art – obviously no word balloons needed there.

 

I think the notion of modern OA being spoon is also silly. It’s different, that’s it. There has been drek art since art was a thing – that is not changing with modern art.

 

[John E.]

So many excellent posts overnight. Some brief comments:

 

JayOE: I think there will always be people who discover this great medium and hobby. The hobby will categorically NOT die with us. Though I don't frequent LCSs regularly these days (there are a lot fewer of them in my area than there used to be anyway), I don't doubt that there are young people there. I see a lot of college age and 20-somethings at Forbidden Planet in NYC (I pop in every month or two), the kinds of people you see hanging out at Felix's booth at the NYCC; don't really see a lot of kids younger than that, though.

 

But, it's all about what happens at the margin that will drive what happens to the OA hobby & market. There will always be new collectors, yes. But, the supply of art only goes up over time. And, to date, prices have mostly gone up as well. If the collector base (in terms of aggregate buying power, not just numbers) does not keep up, mathematically, the only way the market clears is by price adjustment. That's Econ 101. And how eager will people be to participate in a hobby which costs them money instead of being in a virtuous circle environment like its experienced to date?

 

Thanks for the response. That makes sense. Can I add that value of modern art isn't going skyrocket like vintage stuff not just because of the heavy supply, but it's relative ease to find and acquire the page you want? I feel like in 10 years if you wanted a page published in 2017, and you were aggressive about it, you can probably find it and at a comfortable price; whereas, the old stuff, you don't know if it still exists, so you're willing to pay a premium for it.

 

Also, I have no idea what is going on with that Manhattan Projects page! I read the first TPB, but it just wasn't for me (sorry, Felix). The page is somewhat interesting, but it's three shots of the same thing at various perspectives. Like you even said - you'd want the page before and after as well. Maybe then people would have a better idea of WTF is going on.

 

Ha! You make a good point about it being three shots of various perspectives, and yes, that moment is best consumed as a 3-page sequence (and it wouldn't surprise me if all three went to one owner), but I don't think you have to know what's going on in the story to tease out that two friends are going to lose their lives together. I felt even without the overall context of issue/story/arc, that it was a touching moment. But maybe I'm wrong.

[vodou]

It may still be to you, but sorry to say, the majority of comics is . The majority of everything is . I find it somewhat amusing that '70s Marvel/DC OA is placed on a pedestal, because the page has word balloons and the action isn't decompressed. Which, in the vast majority of cases, just means there's more hacky writing, and more editorially-mandated superhero wheel-spinning, to endure in the art.

 

Oh my goodness, I don't recall ever reading this sentiment here (see bold). My peak comic period was the the 70's (I was 10 years old in 1970), and for a year or two, about 1972-1974, I bought EVERYTHING, and it didn't take me long to realize there was magic on those spinner racks, but that 90% of it was CR@P. So yeah, every comic era is awash in garbage. And every era has true gems. Seek out the good stuff. Ignore the rest. That is all.

 

Scott

Scott a lot of us feel very strongly about this, the 70s period but also all periods. The critical conversations tend to occur privately. Unless it's Neal Adams or Alex Toth being quoted! Collectors of all eras have their nostalgic touchstones to which they are aesthetically blind...generally the rest of us don't call that deficiency out, out of kindness, and especially on the The OFFICIAL "This Week..." thread.

 

And, of course, we all suffer terribly that same deficiency to a greater or lesser extent

[JadeGiant]

I've read every post in this thread top to bottom, and wanted to add that I think there's a ton of insight to be had from everyone participating, for anybody taking the time to read all of it. I wouldn't completely discount anything that's been said actually. There's a merit to all of it, and we can all recognize this to differing degrees, and ultimately it's all good food for thought....

 

Great post. I don't think it is incongruous to anything I've said - we agree a lot on some points, and just have different degrees of agreement on others, as will the broad spectrum of participants in the hobby.

 

Also agree. I have been reading and just now posted but have thoroughly enjoyed the exchanges in this thread.

[delekkerste]

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today

 

And with that...Vodou is dead to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vodou]

...there are potentially thousands of desirable Kirby's out there.

I'd say there are actually thousands of undesirable Kirbys out there, save the lifts all ships effect of the top end. Most of the under $5k (present fmv) pages are something only another artist could "love" and -sadly- many artists (true fans) don't have many stacks of $5k laying about to toss at third-tier Kirby that they simply "love"

[Eric Seffinga]

Gene,

 

I would have thought you were an 80s kid too, with maybe a smidge of 70s during the prime comic reader years (8-18) give or take. Granted I went backward and read some 70s stuff during my teens when comic shops started opening up more frequently and I could get to them.

 

But my early years, up until say 13-ish, I only really read what I could find on a spinner rack, which was all new. No local comic shows that I was aware of, and no older kids to get older issues from. I would have been 13 in 1986, and that was the year of DKR. It kinda blew everything open for me after that. Kids in middle school brought those issues in, and I remember several of us standing around and oohing and ahhing.

 

Was the year I discovered Ninja Turtles existed, and ultimately the world of indy books, via the comic shop. In retrospect most of them were sweaty balls too, so hey. Plenty of misery to go round. And we all looked ridiculous with our feathered hair, and fake Jackson parachute pants. It's true.

 

[vodou]

I mean, no one can seriously argue that Steve Ditko could draw better than Lee Bermejo if we're just comparing technical skill.

Err massive audience assumption there Gene. Instead of just comic collectors/speculators (with their typically narrower view of the art world outside of comics) expand to include art critics (not the NYT type though!) with a worldview that includes sequential storytelling.

 

[Eric Seffinga]

Whenever I hear someone mention Bermejo, I always think of a review that another comic artist (who will remain nameless) said once. "Everything that guy draws looks like a crumpled paper bag." He's lost some of that "style" at this point, and has matured. But it still is first thing I think of when I see his work.

 

Apologies to the Bermejo fans.

[Bronty]

I don't agree (or disagree really, all eras have greats and drek) but I like you guys' passion and that there are people here to give the POV of the guy who digs the modern stuff

 

That's all well and good, but what's the size of the pie 20 years from now?

 

Exactly! Which is why chunks of this discussion are to me a red herring. And have you tasted herring? :sick:

[vodou]

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today

 

And with that...Vodou is dead to me.

 

And you are..? WTF is a delekkste anyway (sounds like delicatessen to me?) and why is he wearing a privileged white guy mask?! (right back atcha baby )

[delekkerste]

Again, I like a lot of Modern comics. I don't agree, however, that most of the writing and art is better than in the old days, though, because it's not just about the visuals and the fact that comics are more "cinematic" these days or look like they took longer to draw.

 

Case in point: I recently read Jim Starlin's "The Death of Captain Marvel" for the first time. It's not decompressed. It's not cinematic. The art is not hyper-detailed. There are not great posed, splashy shots with OA after-market sales in mind. The latest artistic tools and storytelling techniques are not used. But, damn if that isn't one of the greatest things ever written in comics. All in one issue (albeit a longer Marvel Graphic Novel). Didn't need 132 pages. Tons of emotion dripping off of each packed page. Absolutely masterful. Yes, it's a shame that the originals are so marker-heavy, but, my point is that the writing and art were so great. Different than today's (allegedly superior according to some) standards. But so memorable. So emotional. So impactful. A meaningful and historic piece of comic history that is still fondly remembered and admired decades later, not just a well-written story that's here today and gone tomorrow like Chinese take-out.

 

You can tell a great story in compressed or decompressed format. The notion that everything is always progressing and improving upon what came before is an imperfect analogy when it comes to the arts. This isn't athletics. Shakespeare wasn't just good for his time, he's still in the Literary Hall of Fame. Similarly, Rembrandt and Picasso have not been surpassed by modern artists just because the latter are working with the latest techniques and many are technically skilled at the highest level - there is more to great comic art and storytelling than that. I agree that there's a lot of great talent working in comics today; I just wish the physical OA itself captured more of it. But, I do love reading a lot of what is being published these days!

[delekkerste]

Gene,

 

I would have thought you were an 80s kid too, with maybe a smidge of 70s during the prime comic reader years (8-18) give or take. Granted I went backward and read some 70s stuff during my teens when comic shops started opening up more frequently and I could get to them.

 

Oh yeah, I'm definitely an '80s kid. But, I love '70s comics as well, at least from the first half of the decade - Tomb of Dracula and Conan are two of my all-time favorite series. There were tons of great series in the '70s outside of the traditional superhero genre. ASM I thought was fantastic the first half of the decade - ASM 121-149 are among my all-time favorites. Daredevil had such great atmosphere around this time - ahead of its time in some respects. Over at DC, Adams on Batman/Detective/B&B/GL/GA...great stuff. Warren was putting out fantastic horror material in the '70s, featuring some of my all-time favorite comic art. Marvel was doing interesting stuff with its magazine format as well. I think the second half of the decade was a bit disappointing. But, then again, most things from the late '70s are disappointing...just look at automobiles from that era.

 

I certainly enjoy '70s stories and art better than most material from the late '80s. The early to mid-'80s certainly had a ton of great stories and art, though, and I would definitely consider that to be my personal nostalgic sweet spot.

[delekkerste]

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today

 

And with that...Vodou is dead to me.

 

And you are..? WTF is a delekkste anyway (sounds like delicatessen to me?) and why is he wearing a privileged white guy mask?! (right back atcha baby )

 

From a 2006 Scoop! interview:

 

GP: Well, "de lekkerste" is the official slogan for FEBO, a popular fast-food chain in the Netherlands where I was an exchange student during graduate school. During that time, I developed an unhealthy appetite for FEBO's curious delicacies, from greasy croquettes to oddly tasty sandwiches. And, of course, the obligatory French fries with mayonnaise. Anyway, "de lekkerste" translates as "the most delicious" or "the tastiest."Come to think of it, I suppose it would actually make a better username for a pretty girl with an attitude.

 

 

Exactly! Which is why chunks of this discussion are to me a red herring. And have you tasted herring? :sick:

 

Had so much raw herring when I was studying in Holland..."Dutch sushi" they call it.

[Eric Seffinga]

I figured it was something like that. I didn't really go back into the 70s material until my late teen years. Discovering my first comic shop in the mid 80s was a revelation. Having a car to get to the comic shop myself? A whole other world opened up.

[Pete Marino]

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today

 

And with that...Vodou is dead to me.

 

And you are..? WTF is a delekkste anyway (sounds like delicatessen to me?) and why is he wearing a privileged white guy mask?! (right back atcha baby )

 

From a 2006 Scoop! interview:

 

GP: Well, "de lekkerste" is the official slogan for FEBO, a popular fast-food chain in the Netherlands where I was an exchange student during graduate school. During that time, I developed an unhealthy appetite for FEBO's curious delicacies, from greasy croquettes to oddly tasty sandwiches. And, of course, the obligatory French fries with mayonnaise. Anyway, "de lekkerste" translates as "the most delicious" or "the tastiest."Come to think of it, I suppose it would actually make a better username for a pretty girl with an attitude.

 

 

Exactly! Which is why chunks of this discussion are to me a red herring. And have you tasted herring? :sick:

 

Had so much raw herring when I was studying in Holland..."Dutch sushi" they call it.

 

And from now on you will always look like this in my mind's eye when I read your posts:

 

[Funnyslover]

This has got to be one of the most interesting threads of recent times.

 

I was buying off the spinner racks at age 12 in 1965 and my favorites are Kirby, Ditko and Sekowsky.

 

I was one of the few in my group who collected both D.C. and Marvel.

 

As a lover and collector of Sekowsky/Sachs JLA OA, I was particularly struck by vodou's observation that :

 

"Collectors of all eras have their nostalgic touchstones to which they are aesthetically blind...generally the rest of us don't call that deficiency out, out of kindness, and especially on the The OFFICIAL "This Week..." thread.

 

And, of course, we all suffer terribly that same deficiency to a greater or lesser extent ;\)"

 

G'nite

[Bronty]

Again, I like a lot of Modern comics. I don't agree, however, that most of the writing and art is better than in the old days, though, because it's not just about the visuals and the fact that comics are more "cinematic" these days or look like they took longer to draw.

 

Case in point: I recently read Jim Starlin's "The Death of Captain Marvel" for the first time. It's not decompressed. It's not cinematic. The art is not hyper-detailed. There are not great posed, splashy shots with OA after-market sales in mind. The latest artistic tools and storytelling techniques are not used. But, damn if that isn't one of the greatest things ever written in comics. All in one issue (albeit a longer Marvel Graphic Novel). Didn't need 132 pages. Tons of emotion dripping off of each packed page. Absolutely masterful. Yes, it's a shame that the originals are so marker-heavy, but, my point is that the writing and art were so great. Different than today's (allegedly superior according to some) standards. But so memorable. So emotional. So impactful. A meaningful and historic piece of comic history that is still fondly remembered and admired decades later, not just a well-written story that's here today and gone tomorrow like Chinese take-out.

 

You can tell a great story in compressed or decompressed format. The notion that everything is always progressing and improving upon what came before is an imperfect analogy when it comes to the arts. This isn't athletics. Shakespeare wasn't just good for his time, he's still in the Literary Hall of Fame. Similarly, Rembrandt and Picasso have not been surpassed by modern artists just because the latter are working with the latest techniques and many are technically skilled at the highest level - there is more to great comic art and storytelling than that. I agree that there's a lot of great talent working in comics today; I just wish the physical OA itself captured more of it. But, I do love reading a lot of what is being published these days!

 

Cool. Now read Richard Dragon #10 and tell me what you think? Every era has classics and duds.

[delekkerste]

Cool. Now read Richard Dragon #10 and tell me what you think? Every era has classics and duds.

 

Richard Dragon #10? Loved it.

 

Anyway, the fact that there are clunkers in any era does not invalidate my refutation of the notion that the cited advancements in artistic and scripting techniques and talent makes comics of every advancing era superior to what came before it. The Death of Captain Marvel is a great example of why that is simply not true.

 

BTW, this is a great/relevant article:

 

The Rise and Fall of the Marvel Universe