General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[Dr Chaos]

i don't believe it. I suspect Swick works for PayPal and coerced a few reps to write those responses.

Not only is he a MOD on these boards. He also secretively works for PayPal.

 

You forgot President of eBay and Amazon.

 

The 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll

 

Bigfoot

 

Elvis

[EC ed]

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

As an analogy...shoplifting is stealing, period. Right?

 

The police can't say...well, if you only shoplift infrequently, it's not illegal, but if you shoplift frequently, it's illegal. Enforcement is a different matter, but the act of shoplifting is either illegal or it's not....it's clearly illegal.

 

PayPal either permits you to use Personal to buy goods from a friend, or they don't. Enforcement is another matter...but as a matter of stated policy, it's either allowed behavior (whether I do it 1 time or 10,000 times), or it's not allowed. Two customer service reps have seemed to answer one way, and some of the written PayPal definitions seem to imply a different answer. Which is it, PayPal?

[Dr Chaos]

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

As an analogy...shoplifting is stealing, period. Right?

 

The police can't say...well, if you only shoplift infrequently, it's not illegal, but if you shoplift frequently, it's illegal. Enforcement is a different matter, but the act of shoplifting is either illegal or it's not....it's clearly illegal.

 

PayPal either permits you to use Personal to buy goods from a friend, or they don't. Enforcement is another matter...but as a matter of stated policy, it's either allowed behavior (whether I do it 1 time or 10,000 times), or it's not allowed. Two customer service reps have seemed to answer one way, and some of the written PayPal definitions seem to imply a different answer. Which is it, PayPal?

 

[entalmighty1]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

That's exactly how I understood it.

 

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

Why can't they just state a clear policy, and interpret it consistently? Surely there is someone who works at PayPal who can figure out how to do that...

 

Exactly. Either it's a rule, or it isn't. Who interprets where the abuse begins? Which employee at Paypal? Is there a department dedicated to friends & family fraud? What's the threshold for abuse? Is it more than 5 times? 15?

 

These gelatinous bylaws are asinine. Either enforce it or don't. Don't decide arbitrarily.

[Logan510]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

 

Maybe they have a limit in how many "friends" they allow you to have.

[skypinkblu]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

Exactly, if someone is abusing it, they will get a warning and may be told that they cannot use personal pp. I know at least 2 dealers who were told they could no longer use it for "excessive use". However, whenever I called about the charity threads and said we were selling books, I got the same response, that it was not a problem and we never had a problem except for the first time, when we hadn't called and someone's account was temporarily locked, until we explained. That's the reason I or someone else calls each time, to prevent that.

 

If I'm ever involved in another charity thread, I plan to do the same thing, call them and ask.

 

So although I'm not looking for arguments, I think the word "thief" is a bit strong.

[retrothecollector]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

Exactly, if someone is abusing it, they will get a warning and may be told that they cannot use personal pp. I know at least 2 dealers who were told they could no longer use it for "excessive use". However, whenever I called about the charity threads and said we were selling books, I got the same response, that it was not a problem and we never had a problem except for the first time, when we hadn't called and someone's account was temporarily locked, until we explained. That's the reason I or someone else calls each time, to prevent that.

 

If I'm ever involved in another charity thread, I plan to do the same thing, call them and ask.

 

So although I'm not looking for arguments, I think the word "thief" is a bit strong.

Thank you.

 

PayPal doesn't want SELLERS abusing their service by asking buyers to pay with PP and depriving buyers of protection and open themselves up to liability of fraud.

 

They do NOT care if a BUYER uses PayPal Personal to pay FRIEND!

 

They're saying that if a seller receives PP payments from hundreds of people, they will investigate further.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by retrothecollector

[skypinkblu]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

 

Maybe they have a limit in how many "friends" they allow you to have.

 

I am just guessing, but I think the personal payments are a good will thing. I've noticed that my bank has started the same thing. I can send money to friends electronically if I sign up, so it must be pretty popular. I don't bother with my bank, because I can send checks for free (they mail them) with no fee. It just takes longer than PP, so it's less convenient.

[Dr Chaos]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

 

Maybe they have a limit in how many "friends" they allow you to have.

 

Are we talking Facebook friends or people that you see at least once a week?

[jsilverjanet]

A friend in need is a friend in deed

 

[comix4fun]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

 

Maybe they have a limit in how many "friends" they allow you to have.

 

Are we talking Facebook friends or people that you see at least once a week?

 

 

I think it's gotta be closer, like "suck the snake venom out of a wound" friend.

[Conan_Aficionado]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

Exactly, if someone is abusing it, they will get a warning and may be told that they cannot use personal pp. I know at least 2 dealers who were told they could no longer use it for "excessive use". However, whenever I called about the charity threads and said we were selling books, I got the same response, that it was not a problem and we never had a problem except for the first time, when we hadn't called and someone's account was temporarily locked, until we explained. That's the reason I or someone else calls each time, to prevent that.

 

If I'm ever involved in another charity thread, I plan to do the same thing, call them and ask.

 

So although I'm not looking for arguments, I think the word "thief" is a bit strong.

 

I hope you will atone for your sins at some point. May god have mercy on you.

 

 

 

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

The only way to have a friend is to be one

[comix4fun]

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

As an analogy...shoplifting is stealing, period. Right?

 

The police can't say...well, if you only shoplift infrequently, it's not illegal, but if you shoplift frequently, it's illegal. Enforcement is a different matter, but the act of shoplifting is either illegal or it's not....it's clearly illegal.

 

PayPal either permits you to use Personal to buy goods from a friend, or they don't. Enforcement is another matter...but as a matter of stated policy, it's either allowed behavior (whether I do it 1 time or 10,000 times), or it's not allowed. Two customer service reps have seemed to answer one way, and some of the written PayPal definitions seem to imply a different answer. Which is it, PayPal?

 

 

 

It's more akin to a shop owner. He may not have a problem with a regular customer who pays most of the time, or for large purchases, to grab a bottle of Coke for free every once in a while. It's a regular customer. He'll do his shopping there. Ultimately it's good for business to give away the occasional Coke, gratis.

 

However, he'd draw the line on backing up a truck and taking Cokes by the case.

[rodan57]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

That's exactly how I understood it.

 

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

Why can't they just state a clear policy, and interpret it consistently? Surely there is someone who works at PayPal who can figure out how to do that...

 

I don't find unclear. Don't use it if you* are a merchant. If you are in doubt as to whether you sell enough to be a merchant ask PayPal.

 

If you are a collector making the occasional sale to fellow collectors -- then you decide based upon how much protection you want from PayPal.

 

It just calls for judgment --- and if I can be grumpy here -- Heaven knows there's enough of that on the Internet.

 

 

_____________________________

* I don't mean you in particular, Edowens. I just chose your post as you had the last series of questions.

[EC ed]

I don't find unclear. Don't use it if you* are a merchant. If you are in doubt as to whether you sell enough to be a merchant ask PayPal.

 

If you are a collector making the occasional sale to fellow collectors -- then you decide based upon how much protection you want from PayPal.

 

It just calls for judgment --- and if I can be grumpy here -- Heaven knows there's enough of that on the Internet.

 

Interesting synopsis (in a good way).

 

Before I saw those e-mail responses from PayPal, I would have argued that there was no room for judgment here. However, those PayPal e-mail responses indeed seem to open the door for judgment calls.

 

I still think it is clearly verboten for a collector-seller to ask for personal payments. But, I now have to re-think my philosophy about buyers voluntarily offering to pay via personal, in light of those e-mails. At minimum, I no longer think it's fair to refer to it in blanket terms as "theft" or "stealing," etc...

[skypinkblu]

The only thing that still bugs me about that PayPal response is this bit: "But in the long run if the seller is doing these frequently then his PayPal account will be having some issues." Why would he be having issues? Too many friends? What kind of issues?

 

Probably because if PP finds out a seller is abusing personal in this way, they will get shut down.

 

Exactly, if someone is abusing it, they will get a warning and may be told that they cannot use personal pp. I know at least 2 dealers who were told they could no longer use it for "excessive use". However, whenever I called about the charity threads and said we were selling books, I got the same response, that it was not a problem and we never had a problem except for the first time, when we hadn't called and someone's account was temporarily locked, until we explained. That's the reason I or someone else calls each time, to prevent that.

 

If I'm ever involved in another charity thread, I plan to do the same thing, call them and ask.

 

So although I'm not looking for arguments, I think the word "thief" is a bit strong.

 

I hope you will atone for your sins at some point. May god have mercy on you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm far from perfect, . I have plenty of "sins" I'm sure sending someone who said he was in need a personal payment for some books I never got anyway, is at the bottom of my list;)

I can attest however, that to the best of my recollection I've never parked in a handicapped spot and I use the crosswalk when there is one;)

[the authority]

i don't believe it. I suspect Swick works for PayPal and coerced a few reps to write those responses.

Not only is he a MOD on these boards. He also secretively works for PayPal.

 

You forgot President of eBay and Amazon.

 

The 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll

 

 

 

[crassus]

But, if it's permitted behavior, how do you abuse it? What does "frequently" even mean? When does abuse begin?

 

As an analogy...shoplifting is stealing, period. Right?

 

The police can't say...well, if you only shoplift infrequently, it's not illegal, but if you shoplift frequently, it's illegal. Enforcement is a different matter, but the act of shoplifting is either illegal or it's not....it's clearly illegal.

 

PayPal either permits you to use Personal to buy goods from a friend, or they don't. Enforcement is another matter...but as a matter of stated policy, it's either allowed behavior (whether I do it 1 time or 10,000 times), or it's not allowed. Two customer service reps have seemed to answer one way, and some of the written PayPal definitions seem to imply a different answer. Which is it, PayPal?

 

 

 

It's more akin to a shop owner. He may not have a problem with a regular customer who pays most of the time, or for large purchases, to grab a bottle of Coke for free every once in a while. It's a regular customer. He'll do his shopping there. Ultimately it's good for business to give away the occasional Coke, gratis.

 

However, he'd draw the line on backing up a truck and taking Cokes by the case.

 

I agree, this is a good comparison. I also agree with Ed that it complicates the use of the words "theft" and "stealing". The word I would use from Paypal's point of view is that here is a certain degree of "indulgence".

 

That said, I do not think one can identify theft unless and until the victim comes forward and calls it that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Question: Can you use the "Personal PayPal" option to pay someone that you consider a friend for a book?

 

Here are answers from two different PayPal Customer Solutions representatives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess we can begin arguing definition of "friend" next.

 

You've misrepresented the situation to Paypal.

 

The Paypal "reps" you wrote do not understand what you are asking. They think you're buying AN item from someone who is a friend in REAL LIFE, that is, someone who either lives by you and/or whom you see on a fairly regular basis.

 

They're trying to grant you an occasional EXCEPTION, because they don't understand....and, interestingly enough, you haven't made clear to them...that you're dealing with people on a MESSAGE BOARD.

 

And did you mention the FREQUENCY with which you do this?

 

Nope. Of course not. Details, Swick details. Roland doesn't understand your very carefully crafted question. He thinks, because you have not bothered to tell him otherwise, that you're talking about a ONE TIME transaction.

 

Intellectually dishonest? Absolutely.

 

Not only that, their responses are contrary to Paypal's own terms, which means....something you should know very well, being a lawyer....what happens when advice contradicts WRITTEN terms...?

 

Right. The terms always win.

 

You are violating both the LETTER and the SPIRIT of the terms, by saying "well, Fred on the CGC board is my very dear friend, and he's not really a merchant, so is it ok if I send him a Personal payment for an item THIS ONE TIME?"

 

But go ahead and use Paypal's service without paying for it. You'll justify stealing from them any way you can.

 

Oh well.