General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[slym2none]

Isn't the PIF nothing more than a string of non binding gifting in a linear fashion using societal expectations as self moderation?

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

I...

 

...

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

How about, in the same post, but not in the same line (as the HoS and the PL is separate) we have the PIF PL/HoS separate and with its own header?

 

Is that a compromise both sides can work with?

 

All answers are valid, including telling me to perform an impossible sexual act.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Bio-Rupp]

How about, in the same post, but not in the same line (as the HoS and the PL is separate) we have the PIF PL/HoS separate and with its own header?

 

Is that a compromise both sides can work with?

 

All answers are valid, including telling me to perform an impossible sexual act.

 

 

-slym

 

In still contemplating your comparison of a belly button to an anus

 

[Ogami]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

Ths is a good point.

[Bosco685]

 

What someone said about your mom was probably up there (or down there, to be more accurate) with Shark-Muscle telling people he was coming to screw their mom and other fine stances on debate. And the person that made this statement to you is definitely a weak-minded individual.

 

But calling people a person_too_unaware_of_social_graces via a meme just because they participate in the PIF when the intent of the thread is meant to be much better than some deliver is definitely down there in the bowl with all the other feces-topics you mentioned.

 

No Nick. It really isn't. Let's not hyperbolize.

 

Jeff, what is being noted here is a series of crappy situations that have occurred over the years. What was stated here by me, and being overanalyzed (or playing the "what hyperbole" game), is distracting from reality.

 

People had very good intentions when they started the PIF thread. But anyone that has any experience dealing with collectible trading realized there are always going to be a few that take advantage. And the more participation, the higher the probability it may attract the wrong participants. No reason to belittle all of those that did the right thing because of the few.

[Bosco685]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

Ths is a good point.

 

It's a very valid point.

[slym2none]

How about, in the same post, but not in the same line (as the HoS and the PL is separate) we have the PIF PL/HoS separate and with its own header?

 

Is that a compromise both sides can work with?

 

All answers are valid, including telling me to perform an impossible sexual act.

 

In still contemplating your comparison of a belly button to an anus

 

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Bosco685]

How about, in the same post, but not in the same line (as the HoS and the PL is separate) we have the PIF PL/HoS separate and with its own header?

 

Is that a compromise both sides can work with?

 

All answers are valid, including telling me to perform an impossible sexual act.

 

In still contemplating your comparison of a belly button to an anus

 

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

[bababooey]

Pay It Forward

 

or as Fingh refers to it: Pass The Trash

 

 

I see we have hit a new low in board history.

 

 

Give me a break. This place must be a crack house/dog fighting club/ porn theater to you as much as you trot out your self righteousness.

 

It's called an opinion. Everyone has one. If you don't agree with that opinion, you don't agree but please carry on saving the children.

 

Parky - how ya doing?

 

I figured where two or three buddies showed up, you'd be right behind.

 

Meanwhile, let's continue this BS fest in the General Discussion thread. Or is that a stretch for rational and reasonable thinking?

 

Captain Condescension,

 

How goes your smarminess?

 

I have an alarm that goes off when the self righteous(you) start trumpeting from their pulpit(your permanent residence) about the masses (the rest of us that don't agree with you) and how wrong they are.

 

As anyone paying any attention can see, you still can't let go of the rational and reasonable thing. But please continue being oblivious to your hypocrisy. And that of your group of friends.

 

You want to have a discussion, which was what was happening before you dropped in with "all time low on the boards", then let's have a discussion. If you want to have a battle of wits, I have some spare time but only if you can a) be funny b) keep to the discussion at hand and not your groupthink butthurt from previous discussions and c) be funny.

 

Wait a minute. I don't want you assuming your statements have anything to do with reality, because they don't.

 

You are the king on the condescending thrown. How many times have you gone around mentioning old debates and blowups to cause yet another fight? And yet when you try to make it appear as if I try to tell other people how to be, it is usually you trying to tell me how to be (which is say anything - do anything).

 

Intelligent conversation? You can't even keep your facts straight, let alone keep a decent conversation going short of "pernts" and fights.

 

At least Branget/C-YA/FDQ is consistent. He jumps in when he sees a group fight, and tries to pile on with the crowd.

 

Meanwhile, calling the folks that participate in the PIF through a meme just to be safe was pretty crappy. What next? We going to start mocking the Positive thread that Jimmers has been maintaining?

* condescending throne

 

Condescension can be thrown around (clearly) but I don't think that was your point,

 

[comix4fun]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

 

I don't think so. It seems a lot like a gift club.

 

The items are listed for anyone to take. The intent is to give away something for no return from the person it is being given to, to anyone eligible. That person then repeats the process but has no obligation to the person giving the gift specifically.

 

It's a gift, actually a gratuitous gift, because it lacks the bargained for exchange and consideration required to make it something more, an agreement, a transaction, a contract.

 

The "without receiving anything of value in return" refers to the person giving the gift receiving something from the person they give the gift to, not another party.

 

In these cases the received item comes BEFORE the gift and from a disinterested third party not in privity to the subsequent gift.

 

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

[Point Five]

Again, I understand the risks with the PIF, and chose not to dive in myself, but nevertheless I'm surprised at all the legalisms on this issue (not directed at comix4fun specifically).

 

List the deadbeats on the probation list, because they are not fulfilling their obligations to other board members. Why not?

 

Who knows, maybe if potential offenders are aware that they won't be able to buy and sell here if they flake out, there will be fewer deadbeats in the first place.

 

 

[Bio-Rupp]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

 

I don't think so. It seems a lot like a gift club.

 

The items are listed for anyone to take. The intent is to give away something for no return from the person it is being given to, to anyone eligible. That person then repeats the process but has no obligation to the person giving the gift specifically.

 

It's a gift, actually a gratuitous gift, because it lacks the bargained for exchange and consideration required to make it something more, an agreement, a transaction, a contract.

 

The "without receiving anything of value in return" refers to the person giving the gift receiving something from the person they give the gift to, not another party.

 

In these cases the received item comes BEFORE the gift and from a disinterested third party not in privity to the subsequent gift.

 

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

 

Good gravy Chris... I don't know how you guys do this everyday in courtrooms or with clients. I think I would actually lose my mind.

 

Good info though... and a worthwhile discussion.

 

[comix4fun]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

 

I don't think so. It seems a lot like a gift club.

 

The items are listed for anyone to take. The intent is to give away something for no return from the person it is being given to, to anyone eligible. That person then repeats the process but has no obligation to the person giving the gift specifically.

 

It's a gift, actually a gratuitous gift, because it lacks the bargained for exchange and consideration required to make it something more, an agreement, a transaction, a contract.

 

The "without receiving anything of value in return" refers to the person giving the gift receiving something from the person they give the gift to, not another party.

 

In these cases the received item comes BEFORE the gift and from a disinterested third party not in privity to the subsequent gift.

 

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

 

Good gravy Chris... I don't know how you guys do this everyday in courtrooms or with clients. I think I would actually lose my mind.

 

Good info though... and a worthwhile discussion.

 

 

 

It's too complicated sometimes. I think I gave myself a migraine right there.

[seanfingh]

Again, I understand the risks with the PIF, and chose not to dive in myself, but nevertheless I'm surprised at all the legalisms on this issue.

 

List the deadbeats on the probation list, because they are not fulfilling their obligations to other board members. Why not?

 

Who knows, maybe if potential offenders are aware that they won't be able to buy and sell here if they flake out, there will be fewer deadbeats in the first place.

 

 

Everyone should make a decision. There should be a poll with whatever choices are appropriate, it seems like the appropriate choices should be (1) an unequivocal yes, they go on the PL, (2) an unequivocal no, they don't go on the PL; (3) yes, they go on with a notation.

 

I would do it, but that is probably not the best idea.

[EC ed]

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

I'm no lawyer, but couldn't the doctrines of promissory estoppel and detrimental reliance come into play here to turn this gift into an enforceable contract? Did not the promisee rely on the anticipated gift of the promisor in offering his (the promisee's) gift to the next person? Can injustice be avoided other than through enforcement of the original promisor's promise?

[seanfingh]

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

I'm no lawyer, but couldn't the doctrines of promissory estoppel and detrimental reliance come into play here to turn this gift into an enforceable contract? Did not the promisee rely on the anticipated gift of the promisor in offering his (the promisee's) gift to the next person? Can injustice be avoided other than through enforcement of the original promisor's promise?

 

That sounds like a bar exam question.

[comix4fun]

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

I'm no lawyer, but couldn't the doctrines of promissory estoppel and detrimental reliance come into play here to turn this gift into an enforceable contract? Did not the promisee rely on the anticipated gift of the promisor in offering his (the promisee's) gift to the next person? Can injustice be avoided other than through enforcement of the original promisor's promise?

 

That sounds like a bar exam question.

 

 

[comix4fun]

They are breaking the rules of the club, and acting like an R-Hole, but that doesn't make a gift something more.

I'm no lawyer, but couldn't the doctrines of promissory estoppel and detrimental reliance come into play here to turn this gift into an enforceable contract? Did not the promisee rely on the anticipated gift of the promisor in offering his (the promisee's) gift to the next person? Can injustice be avoided other than through enforcement of the original promisor's promise?

 

 

 

I totally thought that when I got to the end of that paragraph you were going to finish it off with a "...but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

[EC ed]

[Park]

 

TRANSACTION

 

According to 15 USCS § 7006 (13), [Title 15. Commerce and Trade; Chapter 96. Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce; Electronic Records and Signatures in Commerce] the term transaction means “an action or set of actions relating to the conduct of business, consumer, or commercial affairs between two or more persons, including any of the following types of conduct--

 

(A) the sale, lease, exchange, licensing, or other disposition of (i) personal property, including goods and intangibles, (ii) services, and (iii) any combination thereof; and

 

(B) the sale, lease, exchange, or other disposition of any interest in real property, or any combination thereof.”

 

 

... and also this.

 

EXCHANGE

 

1) v. to trade or barter property, goods and/or services for other property, goods and/or services, unlike a sale or employment in which money is paid for the property, goods or services. 2) n. the act of making a trade or barter. An exchange of "equivalent" property, including real estate, can defer capital gains taxation until the acquired property is sold. 3) n. short for "Starker" exchange of investment real property to defer capital gains tax.

 

Chris & Sean...wouldn't any interaction via PIF be considered an "exchange" and deemed a transaction?

 

 

 

If this were between just two people it would be, for sure.

 

I send you my Nova #1 you send me your X-factor 24....boom exchange. It's clear and definite and the parties are known before performance is undertaken and there's an agreement between them.

 

In this case the addition of a third party muddies the hell out of things.

 

I offer this Nova #1 up to anybody, You take it. That's a gratuitous gift with the only requirement on your that you offer something else to someone else sometime in the future. Then you offer up your X-factor #24 to someone else, they take it, and repeat the cycle, or break it by not performing.

 

The "exchange" has to happen between two known entities where they each obtain something from the other with definite terms. The "chain" of giving and the unknowns of what the items may be and who the other parties may be turn this into more of a gift situation and less of a legal transaction.

 

Frankly, the guy who breaks the train is a jerk and dishonest if he doesn't follow through, but he's breaking a chain of trust that people will follow a set of guidelines for gift giving and not breaking a contract.

 

I'd like to know if someone does something like this, I just don't know if it fits directly into the existing structure of the PL or needs to be on its own somewhere.

 

 

I can see where it looks like a gratuitous gift... but can it be a gift unless it has donative intent?

 

 

 

GIFT

 

A gift is the voluntary transfer of property or funds to another without receiving anything of value in return and without conditions attached while both the giver and the recipient are still alive. The gift giver (donor) must understand the nature of the act and have a voluntary intent to make a gift, called a donative intent. There must be either physical or symbolic delivery of the gift and actual or imputed acceptance by the donee.

 

DONATIVE INTENT

 

Donative intent refers to the conscious desire to make a gift. This is different from giving something for nothing by mistake or under pressure.

 

 

 

According to the NamesJay's initial conditions of the PIF thread...

 

I discovered this idea on cards forum and thought it might be fun.

 

Maybe this has been tried before, I don't know... But let's give it a shot!

 

Here is the deal: I'm going to give away this book to the first person who wants it and posts . Free, including shipping. In turn, that person MUST offer a book(s) free to the next taker by posting on this thread, and so on, and so on. While it does not have to be of exact equal value of what you took, please offer quality book(s) that someone can appreciate.

 

RULES:

-You must not be on the Hall of Shame list or be in poor standing on the boards

-You must have at least 50 posts

-If you claim some book(s), you must post your offering within 24 hours

-Only one offer at a time. No new book(s) can be posted until the existing offer has been claimed

-Post pics or scans of the book(s) you're giving away. Cell phone pics are fine

-Don't take book(s) if you've got nothing to offer in return

-Ship book(s) quickly so people aren't left hanging. No later than two weeks after someone claims your offer.

-Only one every 7 days per member. However, if an item is not claimed within 24 hours, anyone is welcome to take it (no matter when they last claimed book(s). Just don't be greedy!

-Please do not discuss the value of the book(s) being offered. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them

-You can ONLY "take" a book after it has been listed.

-Be honest

-Have fun!

/

 

 

Since participants in the PIF thread MUST continue... wouldn't that make it a stipulation that if one participant gives something, then another will receive something... pulling this scenario away from a gift aspect and negating donative intent?

 

If PIF transactions were gifts, then that would counter the "without receiving anything of value in return".

 

Plus there would be no donative intent since someone is expecting something in return. Is that correct... ?

 

Ths is a good point.

 

It's a very valid point.

 

It is only a valid point if you toss out the spirit of that thread. Like I said, I don't participate, but the spirit of the thread is to pay it forward. Do something nice in the hopes that the next person does something nice.

 

Once you start adding a bajillion rules and contract language, it will become a convoluted trading forum. Which in that case, should be governed by the PL.