The Anatomy of the Signature Fee 1 1

[A-DONIS]

The Anatomy of the Signature Fee

The anatomy of the Signature Fee, and how to alienate your fans.

Mega Con 2017 came and went, tons of comic fans, and artists alike shared a weekend in Orlando, FL where one was sure to meet creators, movie stars, and the occasional artist alley artist selling prints and original art.

The set up this year was the South Concorde, which is slightly smaller than the north, although no one noticed.  With plenty of isle space, you could almost walk without having to stop every five second, that is, until Saturday afternoon, where it seemed like attendees just kept pouring in as they were leaving.

One thing you may have noticed, if you’re comic book fan like me, was the unusual fees being asked for signatures.   At first it was odd that creators who one could normally walk up and get multiple books signed for free, were now asking payment for any signature (Yes raw books).  After carefully looking around the professional section, it seemed that every well-known published artist was now asking at least $5 per sig, higher if you wanted to get your book graded or “witnessed” as most advertised.

This got me thinking, why charge collectors? Are we not the reason why creators get to attend shows like these?

I spoke with a popular DC inker, who summarized his feelings about why he doesn’t charge at all. “If I were to charge for every book I signed, then fans would no longer come see me or buy my prints”, said the inker.  “To me it is ridiculous that some of these artists are charging the same fans that go out and buy comics every week from the local stores.”  He continued to say that, “creators/artists need to think carefully about this, because when you turn away fans because of your fees, you’re essentially alienating the same fans that buy our published books week after week, eventually putting yourself out of work.”

I never really paid attention until now, what if fans decided not to pay signatures fees?  Would the artists stop attending shows?  One will have to wait and see.  

As for me, I paid my fair share of fees because, hey, I’m a fan and a collector just like you.  However, there are some creators that I won’t give the time of day because of their ridiculous signature fee demands and picture fees (YES PICTURE FEES).

[wombat]

Celebrity autographs and photos seem even more outrageous to me. I could see it if the person isn't working any more and it solely doing it for the money. But the actors currently working making millions of dollars per show/movie and charge $100 for a sig and another $100 for a photo just seems like a slap in the face to me. 

[shadroch]

An actor or artist works full time at their craft.

Most have limited time off. I don't blame them for wanting to be compensated for their time.

[A-DONIS]

Celebrities charging is nothing new, what's disturbing are the comic creators charging fans that they deemed to be flippers.

[wombat]

To be clear I have no issue with charging. Charging $100 for a sig or photo is what I have an issue with. And if it is a current actor, they are getting publicity on top of it all. So it's not like they aren't getting something out of it anyway. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by wombat

[ADAMANTIUM]

54 minutes ago, wombat said:

To be clear I have no issue with charging. Charging $100 for a sig or photo is what I have an issue with. And if it is a current actor, they are getting publicity on top of it all. So it's not like they aren't getting something out of it anyway. 

Perhaps the reason for the charge of a higher price is because it would be a madhouse if they were cheaper. So many fans would come that some would be turned away, or maybe such crowds that there would be trampling.

I'm serious and not trying to be funny.

A fan that is willing to wait 4-6 hours for a signature could do anything, or something like that.

[jcjames]

 

Worse yet - they're actually "triple-dipping".

First, they get paid to be artists by companies who sell comics. And where do those comicbook companies get that money to pay them? From the fans who buy the books. So the artist already has some of the fans' money in their pocket before they even get to the con (along with money from thousands of their fans who never go to cons).

Then the artists get paid to appear there at the con. And where does the money that's already in their pocket for sitting there at the con come from? Again, it comes from their fans who attend the con.

So artists are paid (with money ultimately coming from the fans) by the company who employs them - and then they're paid by the con (who again gets the money from the fans who come to see them) and THEN the artists charge these very same fans YET AGAIN for a signature.

Hey - it's just a plain old money-grab by the creators and artists.

For some reason, they seem to forget that they are PAID to sit there and meet THEIR fans (you know, the ones who buy their books which pay their salary in the first place and who already paid them again just to walk up to their booth).

But.... if they can charge it and people are willing to pay it - that's just business. It's just that most folks don't realize they've already paid the artist TWICE even before they ever walk up to their booth.

 

As an aside, for those few creators who don't like companies like CGC making money off of them, well  I guess it's okay for the comic-book companies and the LCSs and the con-organizers and all the other 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. markets to make money off of them, just not CGC.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by jcjames

[jcjames]

9 hours ago, wombat said:

Celebrity autographs and photos seem even more outrageous to me. I could see it if the person isn't working any more and it solely doing it for the money. But the actors currently working making millions of dollars per show/movie and charge $100 for a sig and another $100 for a photo just seems like a slap in the face to me. 

Probably because they know they will likely be barely working at all in 5-10 years and need to pile up as much as they can while they're still "hot".

Very rare is the celebrity who keeps acting for over 5-10 years consistently pulling in millions every year. Those are very rare. Do you think someone like Gates McFadden is making millions doing acting roles still? Sure she's probably still acting, but unless it's related to STNG, she's probably not raking it in like she was during the STNG heyday.

But I agree, I don't like fees for a quick photo. Many artists have no problem with a quick pose for a selfie, but $100 for a picture!? Wow. No thanks.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by jcjames

[ADAMANTIUM]

2 hours ago, jcjames said:

Probably because they know they will likely be barely working at all in 5-10 years and need to pile up as much as they can while they're still "hot".

Very rare is the celebrity who keeps acting for over 5-10 years consistently pulling in millions every year. Those are very rare. Do you think someone like Gates McFadden is making millions doing acting roles still? Sure she's probably still acting, but unless it's related to STNG, she's probably not raking it in like she was during the STNG heyday.

But I agree, I don't like fees for a quick photo. Many artists have no problem with a quick pose for a selfie, but $100 for a picture!? Wow. No thanks.

 

With the professional photo-ops you can bring like 3-4 people not including children.....you can split the cost of a photo-op, if you can find people to do it and you don't mind them being in the photo for years to come. That's why I always take my brother to con's. It's a bonding experience, he thinks comic character's are cool but wouldn't buy a comic! He like's the cosplayers and I think it's a little lame but we both forgive the other's querks and team-up for the photo-ops; such as the Boondock Saints, and Jay & Silent Bob. We're 6 years apart, but the celebs we have close enough interest in so it works out.

I understand $100 bucks a pop is ridiculous but isn't bad if your not alone paying for it  I've never paid for a celeb sig other than comic book artist's, which are kind of celeb's in my book. A picture is worth a thousand words or some other turn-a-phrase!

[SteppinRazor]

2 hours ago, jcjames said:

 

Worse yet - they're actually "triple-dipping".

First, they get paid to be artists by companies who sell comics. And where do those comicbook companies get that money to pay them? From the fans who buy the books. So the artist already has some of the fans' money in their pocket before they even get to the con (along with money from thousands of their fans who never go to cons).

Then the artists get paid to appear there at the con. And where does the money that's already in their pocket for sitting there at the con come from? Again, it comes from their fans who attend the con.

So artists are paid (with money ultimately coming from the fans) by the company who employs them - and then they're paid by the con (who again gets the money from the fans who come to see them) and THEN the artists charge these very same fans YET AGAIN for a signature.

Hey - it's just a plain old money-grab by the creators and artists.

For some reason, they seem to forget that they are PAID to sit there and meet THEIR fans (you know, the ones who buy their books which pay their salary in the first place and who already paid them again just to walk up to their booth).

But.... if they can charge it and people are willing to pay it - that's just business. It's just that most folks don't realize they've already paid the artist TWICE even before they ever walk up to their booth.

 

As an aside, for those few creators who don't like companies like CGC making money off of them, well  I guess it's okay for the comic-book companies and the LCSs and the con-organizers and all the other 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. markets to make money off of them, just not CGC.

 

You pay for the creativity that you receive when you buy a comic book.  You couldn't write your own story and draw your own art and print a product that others can re-sell for their own profit.  You pay other people to do those things for you.  What do you do for a living?  Something you do that others can't/don't, so you can earn money.

Artists get paid to be at the con, sure.  If you go on a business trip, do you pay for all of it out of pocket, no expensing?  And do you get paid for the work you do while out of town?  If there's a demand for an artist's time, then they should be paid for it.  What is three days of your time worth?  Will you go into work and tell your employer that Mon through Weds is on you, he only has to pay for thurs and fri next week?

 

 

[Jimmy Linguini]

Only time I've had an issue with signature fees was when the Frank Miller fee went from $400 to $100.
 

[Glassman10]

I am an artist, not in this medium but inevitably the artist is the one always asked to donate to a charity fundraiser because their time isn't really valued. These guys at least have figured out how to get some compensation for the work they produced.  The collector is usually looking for "collector's discounts" but in reality is simply trying to improve the monetary value of the thing they are currently holding. CGC indemnifies this process with grading and even a Collectors grading structure. " There are no dummies here beyond the people who just love the books for what they once were. 

 

[jcjames]

3 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

You pay for the creativity that you receive when you buy a comic book.  You couldn't write your own story and draw your own art and print a product that others can re-sell for their own profit.  You pay other people to do those things for you.  What do you do for a living?  Something you do that others can't/don't, so you can earn money.

 

 Yes of course. I pay the artist for the book (along with the writer, printer, publisher, distributor, LCS, etc.) Point is, the artist gets paid indirectly by his fans long before he ever goes to the Con. ChaChing #1.

3 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

Artists get paid to be at the con, sure.  If you go on a business trip, do you pay for all of it out of pocket, no expensing?  And do you get paid for the work you do while out of town?  If there's a demand for an artist's time, then they should be paid for it.  What is three days of your time worth?  Will you go into work and tell your employer that Mon through Weds is on you, he only has to pay for thurs and fri next week?

 

ChaChing#2. Yes, artist gets paid indirectly by the fans who go to the Con in order to see/greet/shake-hands... and what else? Do you really think the fans pay $$ to get into the Con just to say "Hi Neal, Hi Rob, Hi Amanda, Hi Jim" and walk away? When has the ever been the case? Never. Fans pay to get in to the Con to see the artists, get an autograph, snap pictures and buy a print or whatever off their table. 

But when the artists started realizing they can charge a nominal fee ($5) and the fans will still line up and gladly hand over $5  bills by the dozens or hundreds every day - ChaChing#3.... then they start seeing those long lines of dollar-signs instead of (or in addition to) seeing the long line of fans.  Not saying there's anything wrong with it - they're just becoming the same as the flippers who see artist-alley as a long line of dollar signs to get the signatures and sell them on the bay maybe even by the end of the day. But the flipper has paid the artist three times now - most folks don't see it that way though, including the artists.

As I said, if the artist wants to charge for signatures because they feel like they might be missing out on a piece of the flipper-action, fine whatever. They're just grabbing money too just like the flipper is. I have no problem with that at all. Just call it what it is - getting whatever you can out of the fans.

But when they charge for a picture with the fan too!?? WTH? Do they really think someone's going to sell that!? Oh come on! $50 for a picture standing next to a celebrity or big-name artist is crazy.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by jcjames

[Glassman10]

the point of the picture is simply a verification of the signature which is a lousy verification. They're  going to milk the cow for what's in the udder and the cow will really sell the book based on all of that documentation.  Artists on a roll aren't stupid. 

If people simply bought a book for its value, there would not be an issue here, but they don't. They do a "value added" for the sake of the hype. Does the hype convert into cash? CGAnalysis suggests not really. 

Maybe it's better to buy based on the book, not the grade someone else placed on it . If you can't do decent grading, the world will eat up your intent on profiting. 

[shadroch]

Go to a show and stand there charging $10 a photo.  Not many people will be willing to pay it.  If an artist can find people willing to pay for the picture, I say go for it.

[tv horror]

It has gotten to a point for me now to just go up to a person and shake their hand telling them how much I admire their work. I used to collect autographs and have a few legends however with the state of the collectors market they are now being treated as fake? I never intended to ask for them to sign so that I could sell it later, no it was the honour of meeting my idols. The autographs were a bonus but I still have my memories.

[SteppinRazor]

6 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

I am an artist, not in this medium but inevitably the artist is the one always asked to donate to a charity fundraiser because their time isn't really valued.

 

I'm an artist in a different medium as well.  I can't tell you how many times I've had this conversation (even the same words) with friends in the same/similar boat.  Somehow making something exist is of little consequence in our society.  Instead, you get people who think they're doing you a favor because they like something you made.

Edited May 30, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[shadroch]

1 hour ago, SteppinRazor said:

I'm an artist in a different medium as well.  I can't tell you how many times I've had this conversation (even the same words) with friends in the same/similar boat.  Somehow making something exist is of little consequence in our society.  Instead, you get people who think they're doing you a favor because they like something you made.

Hey.  We paid for your computer. We pay for the meals your children eat. Without us, you might have to get a real job. You owe us. Everything. Without us, where would you be?

Or maybe not. Maybe we owe you? Its so confusing.

[Glassman10]

It does get worse. Under IRS regs, if an artist donates work to a charity or whatever kind of auction. They can only deduct the materials cost. If the artist sells it to a gallery and the gallery donates it to the same auction, they can deduct it in its entirety. Galleries don't often do it since it's a zero sum gain. People hit on the artists constantly for it though. Here, I have groups call me up that I never see all year and they want my donation so they can raise money with it. Inevitably that kind of auction brings out people who pick up items at a fraction of their value since qualified customers were not there and there was no reserve. Then they brag about how they "Stole it ". These days, I only make donations if I have an actual collector of my work lined up to bid on it. Low balling is bad for everyone there in terms of reputation with one notable exception.  I suspect the signature bunch is a lot like the NBA. Just because you can draw doesn't mean you can play professionally and actual pull down a big salary.  Not many make it to the show. A pocketful of fives isn't that great a compensation if you consider the travel, time away from work and home and the general sucky feeling one gets eating at Shoney's or Appleby's. 

[SteppinRazor]

7 hours ago, shadroch said:

Hey.  We paid for your computer. We pay for the meals your children eat. Without us, you might have to get a real job. You owe us. Everything. Without us, where would you be?

Or maybe not. Maybe we owe you? Its so confusing.

I have a real job.  Even though it often isn't valued as such.

Also, like you, I pay for my computer.  I pay for it through working to create something of value and getting compensation for it, as you do in your job.

So far I've tried unsuccessfully twice to get a forum member to apply the same logic to their employment, but I'll ask again - what do you do for a living?  You get paid for your work, what are you responsible for beyond your hours worked for pay?

I don't think it's a question of owing.  Artists who are asked to donate are asked for their efforts for free.  Art shows are paid for by artists' fees.  Galleries earn commissions off of artists.  Comics are an art form, pulbishers make money off of the art of writers and illustrators.  These middle men are sometimes necessary, but the impetus for all of it is someone creating something for others to purchase.  Someone who purchases a comic is not 'allowing' the creator to exist any more than your employer 'allows' you to exist.  You generate something at your work every day, and you get paid for it.

52 minutes ago, Glassman10 said:

It does get worse. Under IRS regs, if an artist donates work to a charity or whatever kind of auction. They can only deduct the materials cost. If the artist sells it to a gallery and the gallery donates it to the same auction, they can deduct it in its entirety. Galleries don't often do it since it's a zero sum gain. People hit on the artists constantly for it though. Here, I have groups call me up that I never see all year and they want my donation so they can raise money with it. Inevitably that kind of auction brings out people who pick up items at a fraction of their value since qualified customers were not there and there was no reserve. Then they brag about how they "Stole it ". These days, I only make donations if I have an actual collector of my work lined up to bid on it. Low balling is bad for everyone there in terms of reputation with one notable exception.  I suspect the signature bunch is a lot like the NBA. Just because you can draw doesn't mean you can play professionally and actual pull down a big salary.  Not many make it to the show. A pocketful of fives isn't that great a compensation if you consider the travel, time away from work and home and the general sucky feeling one gets eating at Shoney's or Appleby's. 

Not to go off topic, but if you're a painter, you might want to consider only donating by doing live painting.  Then you can meet the people who might buy your work and add collectors, while having a reason for standing next to your work.